Two Opposing Terms: Islamic and Republic

[M. Sarmad]

I think Azlan,that 'khichri' which we prepared earlier somehow by mixing two constitutions of quite different systems is quite 'implementable',however it was never implemented sincerely which is one main factor of 'failure

"Khichri" is prepared for sick persons , but this "khichri" was cooked to make us sick .. and now we are dying of "food poisoning" and vomiting too much "Religion" in form of extremism ...

bhutto was never serious in "implementing" Islam
The Islamic provisions were a "lolly pop" for the mullahs
It was all about politics
aur ham nadan log serious ho gay ......

The fact is "Islam" can not be implemented on us from outside unless we want to be true muslims from inside ... and thats never going to happen

Khud ko bhi dhoka day rahay hain ham aur apni taraf se allah ko bhi dhoka day rahay hain !!!

 

[M. Sarmad]

16 pages of tiresome discussion but no one has answered these simple questions ....

Can anyone please give a simple answer (only yes/no) to these simple questions :

1) does quran prohibit slavery ? do slaves enjoy equal rights ?
2) do muslims and non muslims have equal(same) status and rights in Islam ?
3) does quran give men and women equal(same) rights & status ?

@FaujHistorian @Secur @Slav Defence @Alpha1

 

[forcetrip]

16 pages of tiresome discussion but no one has answered these simple questions ....

Can anyone please give a simple answer (only yes/no) to these simple questions :

1) does islam prohibit slavery ? do slaves enjoy equal rights ?
2) do muslims and non muslims have equal status and rights in Islam ?
3) does quran give men and women equal rights & status ?

@FaujHistorian @Secur @Slav Defence @Alpha1

''

There are a lot of things written in a lot of books but no one practices what they preach. Everyone does whatever he can afford to or feels like doing.

To answer your questions, maybe you wanted to hear something different but you can find the correct facts by some research.

Islam did NOT prohibit Slavery. There were slaves all through muslim dominated periods even during the prophets time.

Were slaves treated better during prophets time? Probably. They saw the honey method conversions easier and effective rather than the stick approach.

Muslims and non muslims do not have the same status in Islam. Ones called a non believer who can enjoy religious freedoms in a muslim dominated region to the extent of him not propagating his religion. The easy question would be that if a non muslim could because of his good deeds go to heaven? Your answer if different than a resounding no would get you killed by people who call themselves real muslim. I would suggest sitting down and having a talk with them about squashing whose islam is correct.

Islam does NOT give EQUAL rights and status to men and women. Were they better than the median rights provided during the stone age? That would be a resounding Yes. Islam was probably the first religion to actually see women as human beings when it was first introduced. The world has come a bit further since then. Abolishing dowry and selling women cannot be compared to how women are an effective workforce in todays world.

 

[Secur]

@Armstrong Doesn't it happen to be your area of expertise somehow ?

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong Doesn't it happen to be your area of expertise somehow ?

What is ?

 

[qamar1990]

1) does quran prohibit slavery ? do slaves enjoy equal rights ?

it does not prohibit slavery, yes they enjoy equal rights, if rules in islam were followed then in 1 generation there would no slavery because unlike in other civilizations in islam a child born to a slave is a free person.

2) do muslims and non muslims have equal(same) status and rights in Islam ?

in islam no they don't, but in a muslim dominated country yes. why would a non muslim have the same status in islam any ways? islam is a religion not a country just so you know.

3) does quran give men and women equal(same) rights & status ?

they aren't equal the way you want them to be, they are equal in the eyes of god.
they have their one responsibilities in society and their rigths are given to them accordingly.
in some cases men have the upper hand over women and in some cases women have the upper hand over men.


i got a few question for you as well.

why are you quoting the surahs in the quran? is it to make your self look like a muslim?

from your the way arguments so far you seem like a wolf in she eps clothing.
why don't you come out as what you really are instead of misguiding the posters on this forum lol.

 

[queerbait]

''

There are a lot of things written in a lot of books but no one practices what they preach. Everyone does whatever he can afford to or feels like doing.

To answer your questions, maybe you wanted to hear something different but you can find the correct facts by some research.

Islam did NOT prohibit Slavery. There were slaves all through muslim dominated periods even during the prophets time.

Were slaves treated better during prophets time? Probably. They saw the honey method conversions easier and effective rather than the stick approach.

Muslims and non muslims do not have the same status in Islam. Ones called a non believer who can enjoy religious freedoms in a muslim dominated region to the extent of him not propagating his religion. The easy question would be that if a non muslim could because of his good deeds go to heaven? Your answer if different than a resounding no would get you killed by people who call themselves real muslim. I would suggest sitting down and having a talk with them about squashing whose islam is correct.

Islam does NOT give EQUAL rights and status to men and women. Were they better than the median rights provided during the stone age? That would be a resounding Yes. Islam was probably the first religion to actually see women as human beings when it was first introduced. The world has come a bit further since then. Abolishing dowry and selling women cannot be compared to how women are an effective workforce in todays world.

Maybe then time to modernise it, every religion has undergone modernisation be it christianity, hinduism.

 

[RangerPK]

16 pages of tiresome discussion but no one has answered these simple questions ....

Can anyone please give a simple answer (only yes/no) to these simple questions :

1) does quran prohibit slavery ? do slaves enjoy equal rights ?
2) do muslims and non muslims have equal(same) status and rights in Islam ?
3) does quran give men and women equal(same) rights & status ?

@FaujHistorian @Secur @Slav Defence @Alpha1

OH MY GOD!

All those things are irrelevant to WHAT democracy is! Are you still confusing democracy with UN's definition of human rights?


Damn....

No offence, but you do not seem to know what democracy is...

 

[M. Sarmad]

''

Islam did NOT prohibit Slavery. .........

Muslims and non muslims do not have the same status in Islam...................

Islam does NOT give EQUAL rights and status to men and women.........

So the answer to all three questions is "NO" ....
It means Islam contradicts with UN Human Rights Declaration of 1948 and therefore Islam is incompatible with Democracy (in the sense the world understands and defines this "form of government")..... ????

OH MY GOD!
All those things are irrelevant to WHAT democracy is! Are you still confusing democracy with UN's definition of human rights?
Damn....
No offence, but you do not seem to know what democracy is...

chotay bhai why dont you send a email to UN telling them that they are confusing Human rights with democracy ??? And they dont seem to know what democracy is !!

Democracy, and democratic governance in particular, means that people’s human rights and fundamental freedoms are respected, promoted and fulfilled, allowing them to live with dignity.
United Nations Global Issues


And tell them what democracy is ( as you defined in a previous post of yours ):

E.G, A teacher asks the class room to VOTE for the person, who they want to become the prefect of the classroom. It is called being Democratic

So brother If you have something good to share with us , post it , otherwise quit trolling please....

why are you quoting the surahs in the quran? is it to make your self look like a muslim?
from your the way arguments so far you seem like a wolf in she eps clothing.
why don't you come out as what you really are instead of misguiding the posters on this forum lol.

What is your definition of a Muslim ?? If you believe that Mullah Islam is true Islam , Then I surely disagree

b/w why a picture of a famous "atheist" with blasphemous beliefs (in your avatar)...And you are always busy doing religious propaganda here !! why this contradiction/confusion ???

 

[BATMAN]

Mumbo jumbo was referring to the Islamic part.

Totally incorrect and perhaps self made self slapping statement by some Islamist.

To be honest.

Islam never gave even a hint of modern institution.

Name one single institution that comes from Islamist era and not from Greeks or Romans.

The core at the instiuttions for developed nations (EU, UK, US etc) is based on Greko Roman concept of citizenship.

Not a single Islamic ruler had that concept.

So if the core is not comparable, rest of comparisons are just un-intellectual (that is nicer way of saying that such comparisons are $tupid )

Thank you.

Mohammad Ali Jinnah to Armed Forces:
Now you have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice, and the equality of manhood, in your own native soil.

 

[qamar1990]

So the answer to all three questions is "NO" ....
It means Islam contradicts with UN Human Rights Declaration of 1948 and therefore Islam is incompatible with Democracy (in the sense the world understands and defines this "form of government")..... ????

the UN was founded not even a 100 years ago.
democracy existed for thousands of years! so since when does the UN get to dictate and set the standards for democracy?
DEFINE "Democracy" because i am 100 percent sure you don't even know what democracy is judging from your beliefs so far.
and even if you say islam condradicts democracy then to hell with democracy because our lands will be ruled our way.

chotay bhai why dont you send a email to UN telling them that they are confusing Human rights with democracy ??? And they dont seem to know what democracy is !!




Democracy, and democratic governance in particular, means that people’s human rights and fundamental freedoms are respected, promoted and fulfilled, allowing them to live with dignity.
United Nations Global Issues

your arguing with the wrong people, do you think we care about democracy? we rather live under a military dictatorship lol.
hypocrisy is written all over you!
you arguing about republics and democracies but you have a communist symbol on your avatar!
your arguing against the Quran but then your quoting the Quran and trying to deceive users on this site about what your beliefs are really.

all i have to say to you is this we don't care weather we are a democracy or not in the UN eyes or your eyes. we know what are and thats all that matters to us.

What is your definition of a Muslim ?? If you believe that Mullah Islam is true Islam , Then I surely disagree

its not up to me to decide who is a muslim and who isn't but judging from everything you said so far I'm pretty sure you don't consider your self "believer" you been arguing against islam the whole time.

b/w why a picture of a famous "atheist" with blasphemous beliefs (in your avatar)...And you are always busy doing religious propaganda here !! why this contradiction/confusion ???

famous "atheist"? thats how you see him? you should ashamed of yourself.
che is a symbol of rebellion against the man, a symbol of rebellion against everything that is wrong with our society. I'm a closet socialist my self.but still what chi's beliefs have to do with anything?
so defending my religion is religious propaganda? lol you really are pathetic.
grow up son.

Maybe then time to modernise it, every religion has undergone modernisation be it christianity, hinduism.

if a religion can be modernized the way christianity was then your know it has to false.

 

[M. Sarmad]

the UN was founded not even a 100 years ago.
democracy existed for thousands of years! so since when does the UN get to dictate and set the standards for democracy? DEFINE "Democracy" because i am 100 percent sure you don't even know what democracy is

That is the problem , you guys love to live in past , a 100 years ago , 1400 hundred years ago bla bla...
This is 2013 ... update your thinking dear
And when we talk about democracy , we talk about "contemporary" definition and understanding of the word ... not a thousand year or 100 years old understanding. ..

your arguing against the Quran but then your quoting the Quran and trying to deceive users on this site about what your beliefs are really

Dont lie please

all i have to say to you is this we don't care weather we are a democracy or not in the UN eyes or your eyes. we know what are and thats all that matters to us.

Talk about yourself alone please .. I am sure that there are a lot of educated Pakistanis who think otherwise and understand that a "Isolated" Pakistan is not in our interest

I'm a closet socialist my self

O Really ????????
You talk like a conservative Mullah

you arguing about republics and democracies but you have a communist symbol on your avatar!

Brother these things are clearly beyond your comprehension skills . so dont try to talk about things which you know nothing about

On topic : Now as you know that Islam and democracy are incompatible , and you have run out of arguments to disprove it , you have resorted to "personal" insult , No point in carrying out any further discussion with you ..
So PEACE

 

[qamar1990]

That is the problem , you guys love to live in past , a 100 years ago , 1400 hundred years ago bla bla...
This is 2013 ... update your thinking dear
And when we talk about democracy , we talk about "contemporary" definition and understanding of the word ... not a thousand year or 100 years old understanding. ..

we like to live in 2013.
from republic we went to democracy now from democracy you went to "contemporary" democracy lol whats next?
democracy is the rule of people.
democracy and the human rights created by the un are different things!!!!!
democracy is where people choose the rulers of their nation.
islam has no problem with!!

Dont lie please

you really want me to quote everything you said or will just admit it? i got all the time in the world.

Talk about yourself alone please .. I am sure that there are a lot of educated Pakistanis who think otherwise and understand that a "Isolated" Pakistan is not in our interest

why don't you create a poll on this forum for pakistanis and see how many people care about democracy lol.
democracy has destroyed pakistan.
india has democracy and are secular and they are not far from us when it comes to progress.
a country must have a mission in order to get some where.
for example in israel the mission the country is to survive and prosper and stick together no matter what. and look at all they achieved.
people like you and @FaujHistorian are no good for pakistan and will try to divide the country into 2
even though your side will number less 6 percent of pakistan.

O Really ????????
You talk like a conservative Mullah

right……. moving on

Brother these things are simply beyond your comprehension so don't try to talk about things which you know nothing about

learn yourself first
learn what is democracy and what is a republic.
until then don't show

On topic : Now as you know that Islam and contemporary democracy are incompatible , and you have run out of arguments to disprove it , you have resorted to "personal" insult , No point in carrying out any further discussion with you ..
So PEACE

everything i said about you is from a fair judgement.
islam and democracy are compatible and even if they not it doesn't matter to me.
this whole argument is about not letting get away with stuff you pull out of your ***.
first learn what democracy is otherwise stop showing your face around here because even i feel embarrassed for you.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Mohammad Ali Jinnah to Armed Forces:
Now you have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice, and the equality of manhood, in your own native soil.

You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of democracy, social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve. (Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi February 21, 1948.)

 

[BATMAN]

You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of democracy, social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve. (Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi February 21, 1948.)

Why are you changing the actual words?