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Two Opposing Terms: Islamic and Republic

There are only 4 self-claimed "Islamic Republics" in the world ..

1) Islamic Republic of Pakistan
2) Islamic Republic of Iran
3) Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
4) Islamic Republic of Mauritania

By what standards/criteria a "Islamic Republic" is better than a NORMAL Republic ?????
(plz base your answers on "ground realities" and not on some "hypothetical future scenarios" or "Religious Optimism")

For the rest of your post , please read the previous posts carefully so you may understand that all this has been answered before ...

I am not talking about the "label" a state tries to give it self. Chinese claim themselves to be "communist" but they are proving themselves to be more capitalistic in nature than other nation.

My point is to claim, Islamic Republic, is theoretically an "oxymoron", is wrong, and baseless. Posters here have already given arguments how the concept of Islamic Republic is not an oxymoron, but is very much true, and even present.

So called 'Fauji Historain' is unable to understand it, don't waste ur time :disagree:


Yes. thus I am thinking of this as an ignorant troll thread.
 
When we know that Abu Bakr was not elected from a people' representative parliament but instead by tribal pressure of Umer
When we know that Abu Bakr, Umer, Usman or Ali (All Raziall Unhu) were simply Islmist kings and not putting their rules and edicts after a year long debate in a parliament.

Well that is implied in my post, as I was commenting on paradox of Republic and Islam and not on sectarian belief.

I would agree that most of those did not put their implemented rule to any parliament, however, as regard basic islamic principles are concerned there is no debate through democratic methods. Again I would refer to my post where I did mentioned that God has never elected a prophet. So how can he allow a vote on his defined rules. Basics cannot be put to vote, because then it would be a man made law rather then the divine. All man made laws are prejudiced and incomplete. Those do not dispense justice across the board.

p.s It is laughable to say Ayatullahs in Iran are democratic. They are not. They are making a joke out of a Western Concepts and so many Pakistanis are saying wah wah wah kiy Shair kaha hai, kiya fumaya hai. If Ayatulluahs were poets, I'd go with your praise, but they are forking a country day and night and you bring their example to support your argument. So sad.

Again my point has been misunderstood. In the absence of any further nomination by God, to reign the world, people are left with lesser choices. I do not say that Iran has a flawless system, please refer to my first para in this post itself. However, at least they have a supreme council which scrutinizes candidates aspiring to run for candidature. And their basis of clearance is islamic defined qualities of an emir. Again not commenting on whether their defined traits are right or wrong and how much those syncronise with the parameter outlined by Islam. At least they have a system and they are following it. Unlike our beloved Pak Land where Article 62 & 63 have never been implemented since its inception and not a single person sitting in current Senate, NA and PA meet criteria defined in these articles.
 
These failures cannot declare Islam and democracy as incompatible. It is the flawed practices of the rulers, may it be kings or politicians. Because both considered themselves above the law and practiced against basic principles of Islam. Therefore, blaming Islam will be highly unfair

Lets put it this way ; I am not blaming Islam for failure of democracy in Muslim countries , I am blaming democracy which has damaged the true essence of Islam in Muslim countries ...

A "Theocratic Democracy" is not a good idea ... They are different modes of government and there is no need to mix them ... The hybrid "Islamic Republic" is a practically failed idea




If the Muslims want democracy so much , then they should know that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 contradicts with Islamic law & Doctrine :


(by Ibn Warraq)
Article 1: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2: Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Here are my comments on the above Articles:

Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted, they cannot marry a non-Muslim.

Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law, they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammed who said 'Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia', non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles, and so on.

Non-believers- atheists in Muslim countries do not have 'the right to life'. They are to be killed. Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the seventeen great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, and adultery.

Slavery is recognised in the Koran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (Sura, iv.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (Sura, iv.28).

Article 5: No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Punishments for the transgressors of the Holy Law include amputations, crucifixion,

stoning to death, floggings.

Article 6: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

The whole notion of a person who can make choice, and can be held morally responsible is lacking in Islam; as is the entire notion of human rights.

Articles 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 deal with the rights of an accused person to a fair trial.

As Schacht has shown, under the Sharia, considerations of good faith, fairness, justice, truth, and so on play only a subordinate role. The idea of criminal guilt is lacking. Revenge for a killing is officially sanctioned, though a monetary recompense is also possible. The legal procedure, under Islam, can hardly be called impartial or fair, for in the matter of witnesses all sorts of injustices emerge. A non-Muslim may not testify against a Muslim. For example, a Muslim may rob a non-Muslim in his home with impunity if there are no witnesses except the non-Muslim himself. The evidence of Muslim women is admitted only very exceptionally and then only from twice the number required of men.

Article 16 deals with the rights of marriage of men and women.

Women under Islam do not have equal rights: they are not free to marry whom they wish, the rights of divorce are not equal.

Article 18: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or

in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Under Islam, one does not have the right to change one's religion, if one is born into a Muslim family. Applying double standards, Muslims are quite happy to accept converts to their religion, but a Muslim may not convert to another religion, this would be apostasy which is punishable by death. Here is how the great commentator Baydawi (c.1291) sees the matter: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard'.

Article 19: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinion without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

The rights enshrined in articles 18 and 19 have been consistently violated in Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. In all three countries, the rights of their Bahai, Ahmadi, Shia, and Christian minorities have been denied. All three countries justify their actions by reference to Sharia. Christians in these countries are frequently arrested on charges of blasphemy.

Article 23: Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Women are not free to choose their work under Islam, certain jobs are forbidden to them, even in so-called liberal Muslim countries. Orthodox Islam forbids women from working outside the home. Non-Muslims are not free to choose their work in Muslim countries, or rather certain posts are not permitted them.

Article 26 deals with the right of education.

Again, certain fields of learning are denied to women
 
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So many Pakistanis use and abuse history and continue to be ignorant.

One such case is the use of two terms associated by Pakistan.

Islamic and Republic.

Even though the two are exact opposite of each other.

The concept of "Republic" in general means that no power for anyone claiming to have divine guidance.


Funny and sad at the same times, that such terms are combined by so-called highly educated elite in Pakistan.

A villager in Sindh, punjab, balochistan, KP will never try to use such mumbo jumbo

For him It is just Pakistan.

That's it.

But our professors, our degree holders, our big name politicians who go attend prestigious Western schools like Oxbridge and Harvard continue spreading this ignorance nay arrogance in Pakistan.


You just pick topic to make some halla gulla,

In actual there is no need to use words like democratic or republic in state's title because Islam itself gives better opportunities and a complete code of governance out of any monarch type of government system.

Well, bypassing many unnecessary details you should understand that state used these words to combine and define the nature of government system in front of the world while declaring 'Islamic' gave sense and describe the idea and mode of system and by using 'republic' we gave sign to the world that we haven't monarchy under religion but a system where people of country have right to decide who to rule them. There are so much examples even in Europe where state allowing monarchy to some extant declaring itself Republic.

In reality, we didn't need to use term Republic if today real ISLAM existed.
 
Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted, they cannot marry a non-Muslim.
It is a misconception. Islam is the only religion which protects women rights. The status given to women by Islam has not been given by any international human rights organisation. What more can be asked when it says that "Paradise is under the feet of your mothers" and words to that effect. It is not islam which has restricted movement of women but the so called followers of Islam in this age. Even in the times of holy prophet pbuh women have been helping men during wars. What else freedom is required, yes Islam restricts women from showing off cleavages, if this what you mean by restriction. Yes it does not allow women to wear bikinis, if that what you mean by women freedom and yes it restricts women from having one night stands if that what you mean by freedom of choice.

Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law, they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammed who said 'Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia', non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles, and so on.
Again what you are stating is not part of Islam but practices which have found their way into Islamic practices. Jesus said if you are slapped on one face give the second one to aggressor and words to that effect. What USA did after 9/11, does that change preaching of Jesus Christ.
Non-believers- atheists in Muslim countries do not have 'the right to life'. They are to be killed. Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the seventeen great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, and adultery.
Please refer to my response above, practices in vogue does not make it part of Islam. There is no forcing in adoption of Islam, which is core value declared. It is responsibility of every Islamic government to provide security to the places of worship of non-muslims, their families and property.

Slavery is recognised in the Koran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (Sura, iv.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (Sura, iv.28).

What you have quoted is right, but you have forgotten the stress given by Islam on freeing the slaves. You have all together skipped the conditions of such slavery and rights of slave. On the other hand what are employees of corporate today, the so called vanguards of human rights. People have been enslaved through other means. Changing the modus does not change the reality. However, with this change in modus is without any code of conduct, which is more dangerous. What is sexual harassment? (not limited to women harassed by men, but men harassed by women, men harassed by men and women harassed by women.)

Punishments for the transgressors of the Holy Law include amputations, crucifixion,
stoning to death, floggings.

Just recently a soldier in USA was sentenced to death. They are the ones who want rest of the world to abolish any capital punishment, whereas practice it in their own country. Islamic punishments are indeed very dreadful. However, before these punishments are executed certain number of conditions are to be met. For example amputation of hand for steeling has its norms
1. first provide a living condition where a person does not steal. This means state is responsible for basic needs of every citizen. It is responsible for food, shelter, health, education, clothing, etc.
2. If after that someone steals his left hand is to be amputated and that too not full hand its fingers. A government which cannot meet condition number 1 does not have right to exercise its authority mentioned here.

crucifixion is not part of Islam, it has been part of Roman style of government.

Stoning to death is punishment of adultration (with certainly a lot of conditions attached to it). If you see the conditions analytically it becomes clear how much God loves his creation that he has given cover to even the wrong doings. It has to be eye witnessed by four, only then this punishment can be executed and that too for a certain category of people. Now tell me who will do such act in presence of 4 people. Isn't it a protection.

Even after 4 witnesses there are conditions which does not allow this punishment to be executed. In holy prophets time there is only one tradition that too Zaeef that this punishment was executed.
Therefore, maligning Islam on such pretext is unfair. If we do not understand Islam it is our fault not Islam's.
Article 6: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
The whole notion of a person who can make choice, and can be held morally responsible is lacking in Islam; as is the entire notion of human rights.
It is your perception, therefore you have not been able to support with any logic.

As Schacht has shown, under the Sharia, considerations of good faith, fairness, justice, truth, and so on play only a subordinate role. The idea of criminal guilt is lacking. Revenge for a killing is officially sanctioned, though a monetary recompense is also possible. The legal procedure, under Islam, can hardly be called impartial or fair, for in the matter of witnesses all sorts of injustices emerge. A non-Muslim may not testify against a Muslim. For example, a Muslim may rob a non-Muslim in his home with impunity if there are no witnesses except the non-Muslim himself. The evidence of Muslim women is admitted only very exceptionally and then only from twice the number required of men.

My dear this is again a wrong perception being created, right to retaliate is what justice is. Isn't it? Co-relating it with crime is not right. Legal system in Islam is very much impartial where even the head of state can be called in court and sentenced. Again please understand difference between what Islam says and what its followers practice.
I will refer to your post Declaration of Human Rights 1948 first 5 articles are the founding principles of Islam. How can those be contrary to the so called Human Rights.

Article 16 deals with the rights of marriage of men and women.
Women under Islam do not have equal rights: they are not free to marry whom they wish, the rights of divorce are not equal.

Again an absolute misconception. A woman has right to accept or reject a man in marriage. She has the right to divorce. If she surrenders this right at the time of Nikkah, still she has a right to Khula which is again dissolution of marriage. You must read about this before making such comment.

Article 18: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or
in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Under Islam, one does not have the right to change one's religion, if one is born into a Muslim family. Applying double standards, Muslims are quite happy to accept converts to their religion, but a Muslim may not convert to another religion, this would be apostasy which is punishable by death. Here is how the great commentator Baydawi (c.1291) sees the matter: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard'.
There is no forcing in Islam, converting to Islam has to be willingly and before converting a person knows that there is no reversion. It is just like you take up an employment and you have to sign a contract that you cannot leave for next 2 years or if you leave you cannot join competitor. Similarly when a person is converting to Islam he or she is doing a contract with Almighty and the contract says that there is no reversion. It may be because Islam does not want people to wear the disguise of Muslim create havoc and then leave whenever he or she feels like.

In Jewism there is no conversion, one has to be Jew by birth. Now why flag bearers of freedom protest to get right of conversion to Jewism. I am not objecting to it. Jews are a community and they have right to have their rules.

Article 19: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinion without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
The rights enshrined in articles 18 and 19 have been consistently violated in Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. In all three countries, the rights of their Bahai, Ahmadi, Shia, and Christian minorities have been denied. All three countries justify their actions by reference to Sharia. Christians in these countries are frequently arrested on charges of blasphemy.

Again you are mingling Islam and what people following it practice. You are absolutely wrong with regards to Iran and Pakistan. To some extent KSA also. Only muslim country where Jews are living happily and are proud to be living there is Iran. Pakistan gives full rights to non-muslims, there are isolated incidents against non-muslims but you cannot attribute individual act to Islam. On the other hand such incidents do happen against muslims, even in the so called first democracy. What is KKK, is being run by Muslims?

Article 23: Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
Women are not free to choose their work under Islam, certain jobs are forbidden to them, even in so-called liberal Muslim countries. Orthodox Islam forbids women from working outside the home. Non-Muslims are not free to choose their work in Muslim countries, or rather certain posts are not permitted them.
Who said that, Islam does not stop women from working. However, it gives an additional protection to women by making it obligatory on men to provide for their wives. I am surprised to see your origin and location both to be Pakistan. What you speak is not what a muslim would be saying or perhaps you are ignorant enough to follow what is being said by uneducated crowd or by incredible mullahs on the pulpit.
Article 26 deals with the right of education.
Again, certain fields of learning are denied to women
Nothing is denied to women and Islam is the only religion which protects, respects and gives right to women, other religions do not. I repeat other religions do not give such rights. And so called Freedom movements are concerned. They have stripped women of their modesty and clothes in the name of freedom and women liberation.
 
Lets put it this way ; I am not blaming Islam for failure of democracy in Muslim countries , I am blaming democracy which has damaged the true essence of Islam in Muslim countries ...

A "Theocratic Democracy" is not a good idea ... They are different modes of government and there is no need to mix them ... The hybrid "Islamic Republic" is a practically failed idea




If the Muslims want democracy so much , then they should know that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 contradicts with Islamic law & Doctrine :


Wow Brother

this is a post of a genius. Sheer genius.

Too bad it will be drowned out by bunch of bhands and ignoramus posters here, and off course Pakistani un-intellectuals of today.


Modern democratic principles are the results of perhaps two pillars one old and the other that is recently new.

1. Greek concept of citizenship refined during Roman empire days.
2. John Locke's life, liberty, and estate later refined by Thomas Jefferson's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

Pillar #1 is definitely absent from current as well as medieval Islamic thought.
Pillar #2's bits and pieces can be traced back to biblical and Islamic thoughts but not the complete three factors. While Bible, Quran, Torah's interpretations may cherish life to some degree, such interpretations are totally devoid of liberty from religious persecution, and may indeed force their followers towards pursuit of making some divine figure happy.


This should also be pointed out that modern interpretation of Quranic thoughts are very similar to the medieval times' interpretation and implementation of bible.

Modern day Islamists are behaving very much in lock step with Christianity in the dark days of Europe


Europe then went through a period of enlightenment and rid itself from the chains of religious mumbo jumbo. Mind you not all Europe, because the world say a major holocaust driven on religious difference not too long ago.



Thus the democratic rights that you list will not and cannot be accepted by the Islamists of today,

As the Islamists of today are a bad copy of the medieval Christian priests.


Please keep up the good work my dear Azlan. Do keep up the good work.

Thank you.
 
Please refer to my response above, [Islamist] practices in vogue does not make it part of Islam. .

Oh bhai sahib

your heart is in the right place when you say the sentence above.

The problem is that you ignore really important outcome of modern Islamism.

What you call practices (that are not part of Islam) are indeed part of Islamist Sharia both Sunni and Shia variety.

So when Brother @Azlan Haider points out the issues, listen to him. He too knows what Islam is and what is not. This is not our discussion.

Our discussion is that Islamist of today or at least last couple of centuries are ignorant about Islam. Not us.

Dastardly laws like blasphemy etc. is not the product of Azlan or I.

It is the product of Islamism. So if you have the urge to show real Islam. try showing it to those who are misuing it.

Please direct your fire power towards the Sharia-mafia not us.

Thank you.



It is a misconception. Islam is the only religion which protects women rights. The status given to women by Islam has not been given by any international human rights organisation. What more can be asked when it says that "Paradise is under the feet of your mothers" and words to that effect. .

We all know what Islam says or doesn't say.

The problem is how it is being practiced and projected by its staunch religious leaders aka Ayatullahs and Mullahs.

The problem is how it is being practiced and projected by its staunch followers.

They are the ones usurping women's rights not us. Go tell and explain to them what real Islam is.

Once you convince them of their erroneous ways,

once you convince them to update and correct their version(s) of Sharia

then come back to us and

we will give you gold medal.


Thank you.
 
Lets put it this way ; I am not blaming Islam for failure of democracy in Muslim countries , I am blaming democracy which has damaged the true essence of Islam in Muslim countries ...

A "Theocratic Democracy" is not a good idea ... They are different modes of government and there is no need to mix them ... The hybrid "Islamic Republic" is a practically failed idea




If the Muslims want democracy so much , then they should know that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 contradicts with Islamic law & Doctrine :


(by Ibn Warraq)
Article 1: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2: Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Here are my comments on the above Articles:

Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted, they cannot marry a non-Muslim.

Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law, they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammed who said 'Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia', non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles, and so on.

Non-believers- atheists in Muslim countries do not have 'the right to life'. They are to be killed. Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the seventeen great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, and adultery.

Slavery is recognised in the Koran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (Sura, iv.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (Sura, iv.28).

Article 5: No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Punishments for the transgressors of the Holy Law include amputations, crucifixion,

stoning to death, floggings.

Article 6: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

The whole notion of a person who can make choice, and can be held morally responsible is lacking in Islam; as is the entire notion of human rights.

Articles 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 deal with the rights of an accused person to a fair trial.

As Schacht has shown, under the Sharia, considerations of good faith, fairness, justice, truth, and so on play only a subordinate role. The idea of criminal guilt is lacking. Revenge for a killing is officially sanctioned, though a monetary recompense is also possible. The legal procedure, under Islam, can hardly be called impartial or fair, for in the matter of witnesses all sorts of injustices emerge. A non-Muslim may not testify against a Muslim. For example, a Muslim may rob a non-Muslim in his home with impunity if there are no witnesses except the non-Muslim himself. The evidence of Muslim women is admitted only very exceptionally and then only from twice the number required of men.

Article 16 deals with the rights of marriage of men and women.

Women under Islam do not have equal rights: they are not free to marry whom they wish, the rights of divorce are not equal.

Article 18: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or

in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Under Islam, one does not have the right to change one's religion, if one is born into a Muslim family. Applying double standards, Muslims are quite happy to accept converts to their religion, but a Muslim may not convert to another religion, this would be apostasy which is punishable by death. Here is how the great commentator Baydawi (c.1291) sees the matter: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard'.

Article 19: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinion without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

The rights enshrined in articles 18 and 19 have been consistently violated in Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. In all three countries, the rights of their Bahai, Ahmadi, Shia, and Christian minorities have been denied. All three countries justify their actions by reference to Sharia. Christians in these countries are frequently arrested on charges of blasphemy.

Article 23: Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Women are not free to choose their work under Islam, certain jobs are forbidden to them, even in so-called liberal Muslim countries. Orthodox Islam forbids women from working outside the home. Non-Muslims are not free to choose their work in Muslim countries, or rather certain posts are not permitted them.

Article 26 deals with the right of education.

Again, certain fields of learning are denied to women
Ok so you are follower of ibn warraq eh? Lol should've known.
I'm busy watching cricket i reply to ur post once I read all of it
 
What you call practices (that are not part of Islam) are indeed part of Islamist Sharia both Sunni and Shia variety.
I would not contest as both are transgressing. I don't mind it as long as each minds their own business and does not fiddle with others affairs.

Dastardly laws like blasphemy etc. is not the product of Azlan or I.
Perhaps you do not want to listen to my views on this law LOL. Especially those who are self proclaimed saviors of Islam. :omghaha:

My whole conversation was based on the concepts of Azlan about Islam. I am very much of the opinion that people have molded actual Islam for their vested interest.
 
Ok so you are follower of ibn warraq eh? Lol should've known.
I'm busy watching cricket i reply to ur post once I read all of it

I am not a follower of any one dear ..

Sorry to disappoint you , but this declaration was not drafted by Ibn e Warraq ...

The Declaration was commissioned in 1946, and was drafted over two years by the Commission on Human Rights. This commission consisted of 18 members from various nationalities and political backgrounds
This Declaration was adopted by the General Assembly of UNO on 10 December 1948 by a vote of 48 in favor, 0 against ....

Now you can take all the time in the world and prove that this charter does not contradict with Islamic laws and doctrine :)

@Panther 57 :
Brother I appreciate all your effort , But honestly no matter how hard you try , you cant deny the fact that this Declaration is in total contradiction with Islamic Doctrine & laws

@FaujHistorian
Thanks a lot for appreciation bro ..
 
I am not a follower of any one dear ..

Sorry to disappoint you , but this declaration was not drafted by Ibn e Warraq ...

The Declaration was commissioned in 1946, and was drafted over two years by the Commission on Human Rights. This commission consisted of 18 members from various nationalities and political backgrounds
This Declaration was adopted by the General Assembly of UNO on 10 December 1948 by a vote of 48 in favor, 0 against ....

Now you can take all the time in the world and prove that this charter does not contradict with Islamic laws and doctrine :)

@Panther 57 :
Brother I appreciate all your effort , But honestly no matter how hard you try , you cant deny the fact that this Declaration is in total contradiction with Islamic Doctrine & laws

@FaujHistorian
Thanks a lot for appreciation bro ..
I don't attend to prove anything. The burden is on you. You have to prove how it contradicts Islamic laws.

So please start off by showing us the cons rations and we will go on from there.
 
Article 1: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2: Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Brother I appreciate all your effort , But honestly no matter how hard you try , you cant deny the fact that this Declaration is in total contradiction with Islamic Doctrine & laws
My friend I dont have to do any effort in proving alignment in the two. Unwilling, but I have to say that you need to do some reading on Islam. I am reproducing your own text for reference. Just do a research on the first four articles and you will find that Islam's foundation is based on these very principles. It was He PBUB said "Arabi ko kajami par, kalay ko goray par koi foqiat nahi, sway taqwa kay" . I would state here again that please do not mingle what Islam says and what its followers are practicing. I personally do not endorse so called existing Islamic laws passed by National Assembly of Pakistan. These law do not depict actual Islam, these law individuals political objectives and loud thinking or wishlist of what Islam should be.
 
I don't attend to prove anything. The burden is on you. You have to prove how it contradicts Islamic laws.

So please start off by showing us the cons rations and we will go on from there.


Sorry to disappoint you.

The burden of proof is on Islamists. Their contemporary systems are utter failures.

What you say is like

-- Yugo car manufacturer telling lexus rep, that burdon of proof to show a well made car is on Lexus.


hahahahahah


you must have heard the joke

-- How fast Yugo can go? Answer: Well how fast is the tow truck going.

hahahahah



Proponents of failed I mean utterly dead systems are jumping up and down asking others to show proof.


hahaha.





p.s. For those who don't know. Yugo was a car exported by good ole Yugoslavia based company. The car as you probably can tell was not the hall mark of reliability. hahahahahah

Zastava Koral - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...., but I have to say that you need to do some reading on Islam. .



Tell me one thing bro.


You think big name huge bearded Mullahs and Ayatullahs have not done any reading of Islam?


Please enlighten us.


Thank you
 
@Panther 57
Brother I will reply in full detail that how this declaration contradicts with Islam (with quranic , sunni & shia refrences) tomorrow ...
 

If the Muslims want democracy so much , then they should know that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 contradicts with Islamic law & Doctrine :



(by Ibn Warraq)
Article 1: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2: Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Here are my comments on the above Articles:

Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted, they cannot marry a non-Muslim.

Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law, they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammed who said 'Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia', non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles, and so on.

Non-believers- atheists in Muslim countries do not have 'the right to life'. They are to be killed. Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the seventeen great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, and adultery.

Slavery is recognised in the Koran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (Sura, iv.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (Sura, iv.28).

Article 5: No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Punishments for the transgressors of the Holy Law include amputations, crucifixion,

stoning to death, floggings.

Article 6: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

The whole notion of a person who can make choice, and can be held morally responsible is lacking in Islam; as is the entire notion of human rights.

Articles 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 deal with the rights of an accused person to a fair trial.

As Schacht has shown, under the Sharia, considerations of good faith, fairness, justice, truth, and so on play only a subordinate role. The idea of criminal guilt is lacking. Revenge for a killing is officially sanctioned, though a monetary recompense is also possible. The legal procedure, under Islam, can hardly be called impartial or fair, for in the matter of witnesses all sorts of injustices emerge. A non-Muslim may not testify against a Muslim. For example, a Muslim may rob a non-Muslim in his home with impunity if there are no witnesses except the non-Muslim himself. The evidence of Muslim women is admitted only very exceptionally and then only from twice the number required of men.

Article 16 deals with the rights of marriage of men and women.

Women under Islam do not have equal rights: they are not free to marry whom they wish, the rights of divorce are not equal.

Article 18: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or

in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Under Islam, one does not have the right to change one's religion, if one is born into a Muslim family. Applying double standards, Muslims are quite happy to accept converts to their religion, but a Muslim may not convert to another religion, this would be apostasy which is punishable by death. Here is how the great commentator Baydawi (c.1291) sees the matter: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard'.

Article 19: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinion without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

The rights enshrined in articles 18 and 19 have been consistently violated in Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. In all three countries, the rights of their Bahai, Ahmadi, Shia, and Christian minorities have been denied. All three countries justify their actions by reference to Sharia. Christians in these countries are frequently arrested on charges of blasphemy.

Article 23: Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Women are not free to choose their work under Islam, certain jobs are forbidden to them, even in so-called liberal Muslim countries. Orthodox Islam forbids women from working outside the home. Non-Muslims are not free to choose their work in Muslim countries, or rather certain posts are not permitted them.

Article 26 deals with the right of education.

Again, certain fields of learning are denied to women

The idea of democracy has nothing to do with "human rights" and it is not the condition of democracy to must have Any of those articles. democracy is the rule of the majority, and if the majority wants, they can pass ANY law they want, and can write any form of constitution

A democracy can declare to pass laws, such as to kill all first born infants, if the majority wants that, so it shall be! No matter how insane the law might be. Democracy can do that. Even if democracy wants to make incest legal it can also do that too. Make prostitution legal, democracy can also do that. Kill all minorities, democracy can do that too.

Democracy is essentially rule of the majority and has nothing to do with "human rights" or the articles you posted. If a democracy wants, it can also make those "Islamic laws" (not sure if those are correct or not) you posted, to be passed as laws. If the majority wants it. So it shall be.

Democracy is means to an end, not an end in itself.
 
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