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Two Opposing Terms: Islamic and Republic

Show me which Muslim leader setup citizenship concept for non-Muslims?



Oh bhai,

citizenship is a Greek concept, that was refined by Romans.

Arabs (Muslims or non-Muslims) never had the concept of citizenship.

Sunnah Sharia etc. are not even aware of the concept of citizenship.

And you keep on repeating 4th grade Mutalae Pakistan book.


How sad

doesn't matter weather anybody set up the concept for citizenship in the muslim world or not, because it exists now in our country so what is the problem?
 
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doesn't matter weather anybody set up the concept for citizenship in the muslim world or not, because it exists now in our country so what is the problem?

Thanks to Islamism it does not

I may be safe because I belong to majority religious group.

But

the state is actively involved in declining citizenship rights to the declared non-Muslims.

You will not know

you live far far far away in a secular fairyland.

understand Alice?


peace

@FaujHistorian I meant it as a joke. I know what Jinnah actually said

I was just joking around :(

Do you live in Pakistan.

If you do, how come you haven't been shot yet =D


Thank our family's body guards.


just kidding.

Mr Jinnah, spoke about about freedom of non muslims going to the places of worship of their choice.Which is according to Islam.

No where in that statement he disapproved or approved the idea of Dhimmi or Jizya. Did he?

So Mr Jinnah said nothing contradictory against Islam. keeping those facts in mind?


Also, the concept of "History of Islam" is also controversial. Islam started from Prophet Adam and was completed at Prophet Muhammad (SAW). This is the history of Islam, beyond that, it is Muslim History.


Read the whole speech bhai sahib

Read the whole thing

From Alif to bay to hay hay hay. then yay.


And please you and Qamar stop dragging Islamism in this thread.

Thank you.
 
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Show me which Muslim leader setup citizenship concept for non-Muslims?



Oh bhai,

citizenship is a Greek concept, that was refined by Romans.

Arabs (Muslims or non-Muslims) never had the concept of citizenship.

Sunnah Sharia etc. are not even aware of the concept of citizenship.

And you keep on repeating 4th grade Mutalae Pakistan book.


How sad

Did I even use the word CITIZEN in my posts at all?

Read my first post in the thread, if you did not pay any attention to my post.....

Yes. I agree. I do not know what the issue is. As far as Islam is concerned, there is no right or wrong way to build a state or elect a leader. This part of state building is left open for different cultures to decide how to do it, and they do so organically themselves.

Do you see me using the word CITIZEN here?....

Seriously, you are trolling I guess...

Do I even IMPLY the concept of citizenship is ISLAMIC!!?!

Oh my GOD.

No matter, what SOCIAL ORANIZATION a group of people decide to REGULATE themselves with. According to ISLAMIC guidelines, that group would have to allow people the choice and freedom to go to their places of worship of their choice.

And please you and Qamar stop dragging Islamism in this thread.

Thank you
.

You opened a troll thread about ISLAMic Republic. and now you are asking people to not drag Islam in to it? Seriously?

Does that even make any sense ?
 
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Did I even use the word CITIZEN in my posts at all?

Read my first post in the thread, if you did not pay any attention to my post.....

?


Ranger bhai

Republic lead to the concept of citizenship

Islam did not.

Now you are trying to reinvent the Islamist wheel.

And like so many before you, will fail, despite the good intentions.


Peace. Ok? bhai. Peace please !
 
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Ranger bhai

Republic lead to the concept of citizenship

Islam did not.

Now you are trying to reinvent the Islamist wheel.

And like so many before you, will fail, despite the good intentions.


Peace. Ok? bhai. Peace please !

I am not even arguing that. The concept of citizenship of republic, developed from cultural evolution which has nothing to do with any religion or Islam...

Does NOT make the concept of Islamic Republic an oxymoron, like many others posters here pointed out.

Your argument is thus baseless.
 
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I am not even arguing that. The concept of citizenship of republic, developed from cultural evolution which has nothing to do with any religion or Islam...
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This is precisely why Republic too has nothing to do with Islam.



Does NOT make the concept of Islamic Republic an oxymoron, like many others posters here pointed out.
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My dear,

your argument is like taking a well known eqution such as:

E=mC^2


And

Saying that m in this equation is "Muslim"

hahahah


Hijacking well known terms and equations and clobbering them to fit one's narrow and misguided view will not work.

That's intellectual dishonesty at its best.

But the sad thing is that the person(s) committing such dishonesty do not even know they are so wrong.


Peace
 
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Hijacking well known terms and equations and clobbering them to fit one's narrow and misguided view will not work.

That's intellectual dishonesty at its best.

But the sad thing is that the person(s) committing such dishonesty do not even know they are so wrong.



Peace

I feel like you are making troll threads and trolling in them.

Regardless, what ever your opinions might be, the reality remains, there is a state called Islamic Republic of Pakistan. No matter how many threads you make like these, I doubt you can change that reality.

I do not know what your reality or true motives are. Only God knows. All I can say is God protect me from whatever fitna you might have in you. Ameen.
 
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how do you figure? lol
please elaborate

Brother I gave explanation in post # 59 .. May be u didnt read through


-all government officials must get elected by people.
-all wars, sanctions on other countries, severing of ties with other countries all should be voted on by the people.
-the government can't FORCE people to pray or fast.
-the government can't jail somebody for becoming a kafir because the quran clearly says there is no compulsion in religion, and since the quran is the highest authority then anything else we must reject that contradicts it( hadiths that say kill apostates).
-every citizen or minority should be allowed to hold any office but it will be very unlikely that they will ever become a president or prime minister because they will never get the votes.
-all females should have equal rights.
all students at schools should be thought about all religions and then make it optional for students if they want further education on islam ect.

All these may be ideals of a "Republic" ... But they contradict with "Islam" ....

You are rejecting the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari/Muslim (regarding Apostasy) and by Mullah definition you are rejecting "Islam" and hence u r a Apostate yourself .. Shia also believe in execution of Apostate ... Hadith rejection is FITNA and now you deserve punishment ;)

Females cant have "equal" rights in a Islamic system

Study of Islam is not "optional" in a Islamic theocracy

Non muslims& muslims can never have same rights in a Islamic system


And that exactly is what @FaujHistorian is trying to say ; Islam & Republic/political democracy are incompatible

I feel like you are making troll threads and trolling in them

No brother , its a very important issue and is highly relevant
The so called "Islamic Provisions" in our constitution provide shelter to Islamic Terrorists/Extremists ...
 
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No brother , its a very important issue and is highly relevant
The so called "Islamic Provisions" in our constitution provide shelter to Islamic Terrorists/Extremists ...

The concept of having a "republic" with certain guidelines according to Islam is a legitimate idea, but I agree. There is a difference between theory and practice, when you LABEL something as "Islamic" then this may open room for many opportunists to hijack the system.

This is a whole different topic. I think these two are two different topics, that often get confused with each other, because of the thin line between the two..

In short, you can have an Islamic Republic, without naming the country Islamic Republic.
 
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The concept of having a "republic" with certain guidelines according to Islam is a legitimate idea, but I agree. There is a difference between theory and practice, when you LABEL something as "Islamic" then this may open room for many opportunists to hijack the system.

This is a whole different topic. I think these two are two different topics, that often get confused with each other, because of the thin line between the two..

In short, you can have an Islamic Republic, without naming the country Islamic Republic.


That is the whole point of having this discussion .. You can have a Islamic Theocracy but should not name it as "Islamic Republic" ... Because the use of word "Republic" may result in confusion for others as well as for our own people ...

For example :
The verb "to table" has different meanings in American & British English (opposite)
in AmE it means "to suspend from consideration"
In BrE it means to "raise for consideration"

During World War 2 a meeting of top Allied commanders nearly broke up in a furious row because both Brits and Americans wanted urgent action on something but one side's expressing this as tabling it was misunderstood by the other side as meaning doing nothing!


So what we mean when we say "Republic"(Islamic) is not how the rest of the world understands the meaning of word "Republic" .... We should avoid using it ..
 
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That is the whole point of discussion .. You can have a Islamic Theocracy but should not name it as "Islamic Republic" ... Because the use of word "Republic" may result in confusion for others as well as for our own people ...

For example :
The verb "to table" has different meanings in American & British English (opposite)
in AmE it means "to suspend from consideration"
In BrE it means to "raise for consideration"

During World War 2 a meeting of top Allied commanders nearly broke up in a furious row because both Brits and Americans wanted urgent action on something but one side's expressing this as tabling it was misunderstood by the other side as meaning doing nothing!


So what we mean when we say "Republic"(Islamic) is not how the rest of the world understands the meaning of word "Republic" .... We should avoid using it ..

If I am not mistaken, Islam does not specify the structure of the state or how the people select their leader. It is something open for the people to figure out themselves, which is often developed organically by societies. In this regard Islam is very flexible, by staying silent.

this "theocracy" is not something , which Islam tells you that you "must" have as a condition for being a good Muslim or what not. But a society is free to develop ANY form of governmental structure or state.

This can either be theocracy, republic, democracy, communism, aristocracy, socialism,tribal society, nomadic society, even the concept of "state" is something optional, and not necessary.

It is simply up to the people/group to decide what sort of a social organization they need to develop to regulate the behaviour of their society to have order.

Islam is very flexible and silent on that.

How the prefix Islam come into play is by becoming a guideline for these "systems". It can do so by placing certain limitation and/or by encouraging certain narratives.


E.g It is Islam to let minority non Muslims to practice their religion and give them the freedom to go to their worship places of choice.

Thus it becomes a narrative these "systems" would follow, either it be a socialist state, a republic, a communist state, a aristocratic state, a theocracy, kingship, a tribe, or a nomadic group.

Thus having a republic is not against Islam. Neither these two are oxymoron.

But rather Islam compliments republic quite beautifully.


In case of relation between Islam and republic. Leader explained it quite nicely.

Republic is actually a nation-state federation or union binded by the constitution. such as Pakistan or America.

the word Islamic republic is A muslim nation state which is binded by a constitution governed by the principle of Islam.

In a republic, people can select their representative and these representatives would select the leader. This leader can be anyone, he can be either Hitler, who represents the will of his people to kill all jews, or he can be Nelson Mandela, who wants inter ethnic peace.

However, by complimenting this republic with Islamic guidelines, you can prevent a hitler from killing all the jews, and encouraging Nelson Mandela in his quest for inter ethnic peace.

So the idea of Islamic Republic does exist, and is even better than a normal republic.
 
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That's really what Mullahs want. Islamist Emirates of Pakistan.

Why you think Tehreke Terrorist Paksitan (TTP) is forking the rest of the country.

This is how they want to establish Islamist Emirates.

But that's besides the point.

We are discussing the idea of Republic so that we may have hope for our future, for our beautiful country.

We already know what will be like a hell if we allow to turn our country into Islamist Emirate of Afghanistan, Islamist Emirate of Somalia, or other tribal junnats like Sierra Leon and Congo.

So please add your views about Republic of Pakistan.

Thank you.



Look our Mohalla mosque is run by a Mullah who is obedient and pliant. Why because our family makes sure that mosque is well funded.

We have forbidden him to shout from the minarette,

or beg for chanda

or talk politics.

Yes there are many Mohallah molvies who will give such fatwa


But the mardood Mullahs like Munawwar of Jahliyya fil Islam (JI) are the cause and our educated Islamist elite are the fuel that allows TTP to continue doing their dastardly acts.


So please do not say that bunch of Ullu-Ma can go against TTP.

they cannot, even if they wanted to. But in the hearts of heart of this Ullu-Ma, they support militant uprising so that Islamism can prevail.


Thank you.
Islamic Republic Of Pakistan is completely ok, i think it means a democratic state which abides by the rules of Islam, or that it does not go against the rules of Islam, and if you try to drop Islamic like Field Marshall Ayub Khan tried, well then the result is in front of you, i think no one will try that again
 
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So the idea of Islamic Republic does exist, and is even better than a normal republic.

There are only 4 self-claimed "Islamic Republics" in the world ..

1) Islamic Republic of Pakistan
2) Islamic Republic of Iran
3) Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
4) Islamic Republic of Mauritania

By what standards/criteria a "Islamic Republic" is better than a NORMAL Republic ?????
(plz base your answers on "ground realities" and not on some "hypothetical future scenarios" or "Religious Optimism")

For the rest of your post , please read the previous posts carefully so you may understand that all this has been answered before ...
 
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Mr Jinnah, spoke about about freedom of non muslims going to the places of worship of their choice.Which is according to Islam.

No where in that statement he disapproved or approved the idea of Dhimmi or Jizya. Did he?

So Mr Jinnah said nothing contradictory against Islam. keeping those facts in mind?


Also, the concept of "History of Islam" is also controversial. Islam started from Prophet Adam and was completed at Prophet Muhammad (SAW). This is the history of Islam, beyond that, it is Muslim History.


So called 'Fauji Historain' is unable to understand it, don't waste ur time :disagree:
 
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