two murders in india and the need for revolution

[Kaniska]

So you give the mother an option but not to a citizen. When Hinduism says "vasudhaiva kutumbakam" its an open mindedness of hindus but when muslims talk of islamic brotherhood they become parochial and fanatic. Can you tell me "standard stances of nationalism" and then we can talk about deviation.

I repeat again...if for sake of nationalism...i have to denounce Hinduism...I do not care...For me...it is not primary part of my life not i put so much of importance of it....if at any point of time Hinduism will teach me that God in Hinudism is important than nationhood...Trust me...my preference will be for my nation rather than any religion...

My standard of nationalism is simple...Take example of Palestine ....For me Palestine issue is a simple liablity for us...Palestine does not offer anything to us that can be negotiated with cuttingg relationship with Israel..and in the same vein...If Nepal , being the only Hindu nation, thinks to trouble India, then i feel , India should consider its best interest with Nepal by taking all the measures to put in into size..

My context of Nepal and Palestine is the preference in which i think or present my thoughts....And i feel most of the Indian who are HIndus have simillar thought...But you will find questionable stance from Indian who are Muslims..related to Palestine issue...That is where the question of nationalism and religion comes to strike each other...There can be other examples too...And again, i should also admit that it might be possible that my perception is wrong and i may be incorrect in my thought too....

 

[Prajapati]

When an Indian says he is an Indian the matter ends there. there is no need to ask for his religion and loyalty. Its very sickening. Its akin to a doubting spouse seeking daily assurance on fidelity.

No, it does not end there. It depends on what constitutes his or her definition of being an Indian.

An "indian" who kills fellow Indians for money or for religious reasons or joins ISIS is the reality of today. The loyalty is naturally questioned as it must be.

Hyderabad or elsewhere the muslims in India had an opportunity to leave for Pakistan but if they opted to be in India, even if willy nilly, there is hardly any issue about it. You know how politicians play with the emotions of the people. Most muslims were emotionally drawn to muslim league and demand for Pakistan but they could never visualise or foresee themselves moving to a far off land leaving behind their motherland. If Hyderabadis or others were told of the option that to make Pakistan they will have to migrate from their land, perhaps, they would have opposed the move. You know very well that Sania Mirza despite marrying a Pakistani is unwilling to take up pakistani citizenship. And if you know the history of Kashmir and ground realities, you will not make such statement. A bigger challenge was posed by Khalistanis but you will never doubt sikhs because they are part of your hindutva.

FYI, Hinduguy is a fellow Muslim.

Hindu-Muslim bonhomie in Bihar town | Siasat
Patna, June 01:
In a rare example of communal harmony, a Hindu man who brought up a Muslim girl for 20 years after she was deserted as a child by her poverty-stricken parents, has now married her to a groom from her own community.

Upendra Gupta, who brought up Shabbo Khatoon as his own daughter, married her to a Muslim boy with Islamic rituals.

Gupta, a resident of Jhanda Chowk in Purnea district, about 400 km from Patna, had found Shabbo 20 years ago when she was just four years old and abandoned by her parents.

He brought her up like his own daughter, but according to Muslim practices.

"Though I brought her up like my daughter, I married her to a Muslim boy keeping in view her religion at the time of her birth. For me, humanity is more important than my religion," Gupta said.

Most of the members in the groom's marriage party were Muslims, while those in the bride's family were Hindus.

People have praised Gupta for his step.

"Gupta has set an example on how to treat people with dignity and respect," said local resident Ghulam Ansari.

Mohd. Azad, another local resident, said if Gupta had wanted he could have brought up Shabbo as a Hindu girl and easily married her to a Hindu boy. "But, for him, humanity is above anything," he said.

---IANS

Now show me an example of an Muslim man doing that with a Hindu child.

 

[Razia Sultana]

Now show me an example of an Muslim man doing that with a Hindu child.

Arpita Khan, daughter of Saleem Khan and sister of Salman Khan,was raised in the Khan family and recently married off to a hindu boy.
What color you see depends on what color's glasses you are wearing.

FYI, Hinduguy is a fellow Muslim.

How does it matter? I am not keen to know anyone's caste or religion. My profile name is Razia Sultana but I am not Razia Sultana.

No, it does not end there. It depends on what constitutes his or her definition of being an Indian.

An "indian" who kills fellow Indians for money or for religious reasons or joins ISIS is the reality of today. The loyalty is naturally questioned as it must be.

You tell me what is the essence of being an Indian.
An indian regardless of his religion kills fellow indian to rob his money.
An Indian provokes and incites violence against a fellow India in the name of religion and people are killed regardless of which religion they belonged to.
4 or 5 indian muslims out of 150-200 millions joined ISIS which does not have support of any muslim country. Syria, Iraq,Turkey and Iran are fighting ISIS and Saudi Arabia and other muslim nations are ok with action against ISIS.

These are also facts. You can never find the whole truth if you see only one side of the coin.

 

[Bitter Melon]

When Hinduism says "vasudhaiva kutumbakam" its an open mindedness of hindus but when muslims talk of islamic brotherhood they become parochial and fanatic.

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam presumes the brotherhood of all humanity unlike Islamic brotherhood which assumes only Muslim brotherhood and demarcates those not belonging to Islam as the other. Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam does not pitch one faction against another unlike Muslim brotherhood nor does it breed traitorous tendencies in people who live in Kuffar land or even Muslim land. A Kuffar believing in Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam if living in an Islamic country will consider his Islamic counterparts his brothers and fight for them. But the same cannot be assumed about Islamic brotherhood whose duty it is to fight the Kuffar for the glory of Islam.

 

[Razia Sultana]

I repeat again...if for sake of nationalism...i have to denounce Hinduism...I do not care...For me...it is not primary part of my life not i put so much of importance of it....if at any point of time Hinduism will teach me that God in Hinudism is important than nationhood...Trust me...my preference will be for my nation rather than any religion...

My standard of nationalism is simple...Take example of Palestine ....For me Palestine issue is a simple liablity for us...Palestine does not offer anything to us that can be negotiated with cuttingg relationship with Israel..and in the same vein...If Nepal , being the only Hindu nation, thinks to trouble India, then i feel , India should consider its best interest with Nepal by taking all the measures to put in into size..

My context of Nepal and Palestine is the preference in which i think or present my thoughts....And i feel most of the Indian who are HIndus have simillar thought...But you will find questionable stance from Indian who are Muslims..related to Palestine issue...That is where the question of nationalism and religion comes to strike each other...There can be other examples too...And again, i should also admit that it might be possible that my perception is wrong and i may be incorrect in my thought too....

I really respect you for what you wrote in the end above.
But you are provoking a long debate as religion is about ones very own existence and not only beyond national boundaries but beyond the earth and universe. Its about individual and god, atma and paramatma, life and beyond life. It seems you are either an atheist or agnostic or have not understood your religion. Nevertheless, the question of nation or religion arises when they interfere with each other. tell me, has your nation come in the way of being an atheist or a hindu or a muslim? if yes, then how and where and we can debate. If no, then the matter ends. No point assuming things and worrying.
As regards to examples of Palestine, Nepal and Israel, please tell me whats there to debate? India, as a nation, has to safeguard her national interests. Our relations with Nepal has been up and down and so our relations with every other nation be it US, Russia, UK or any other country. More non muslims in India support Palestine cause than the entire muslim population of India because its on certain principles. Our defence relations have strengthened with Israel because they helped us in many ways during Kargil conflict. India and Pakistan are enemy nations. Still India is keen to do business with them and they are very keen to play cricket with us and we have diplomatic ties. Diplomacy is all about maintaining friendship with two enemies. World is not black and white and diplomacy is all about being grey. Being grey is accepting the black and accepting the white. So if a person prefers his religion over his nation, it does not make him any less nationalist.

 

[Bitter Melon]

4 or 5 indian muslims out of 150-200 millions joined ISIS which does not have support of any muslim country. Syria, Iraq,Turkey and Iran are fighting ISIS and Saudi Arabia and other muslim nations are ok with action against ISIS.

This is a normal Arab trait that has been imported into Islam - i.e me against you; you and me against our cousin; you, me and cousin against our neighbour; all of us against the next village. So Islamic countries frighting amongst each other is a norm rather than exception, but all of them get together when they fight against the Kuffar. Eg. Palestine. Indian muslims are more concerned about Palestine than they are concerned about the Kashmiri pundits who have been thrown out of Kashmir by their own Islamic brotherhood is a sufficient pointer.

 

[Razia Sultana]

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam presumes the brotherhood of all humanity unlike Islamic brotherhood which assumes only Muslim brotherhood and demarcates those not belonging to Islam as the other. Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam does not pitch one faction against another unlike Muslim brotherhood nor does it breed traitorous tendencies in people who live in Kuffar land or even Muslim land. A Kuffar believing in Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam if living in an Islamic country will consider his Islamic counterparts his brothers and fight for them. But the same cannot be assumed about Islamic brotherhood whose duty it is to fight the Kuffar for the glory of Islam.

Its how you look at it. Islam is a religion of peace and brotherhood. Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam gets nullified when it comes to treatment of Shudras. In Islam jihad begins with fighting inner vices first, rest is politics.

This is a normal Arab trait that has been imported into Islam - i.e me against you; you and me against our cousin; you, me and cousin against our neighbour; all of us against the next village. So Islamic countries frighting amongst each other is a norm rather than exception, but all of them get together when they fight against the Kuffar. Eg. Palestine. Indian muslims are more concerned about Palestine than they are concerned about the Kashmiri pundits who have been thrown out of Kashmir by their own Islamic brotherhood is a sufficient pointer.

We have a choice to see good (80%), bad (20%) and ugly (miniscule 0.0001%). If you are hell bend on seeing the ugly then please tell me what the hindus have done for the kashmiri pundits? what have muslims said thats against the kashmiri pundits?
A tiger accuses the lamb down stream to malign his water and kills him. He had to kill him and soiling the water was only a fake accusation. If you suffer from Islamophobia then no amount of argument will help you.

 

[Bitter Melon]

Its how you look at it. Islam is a religion of peace and brotherhood. Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam gets nullified when it comes to treatment of Shudras. In Islam jihad begins with fighting inner vices first, rest is politics.

No Vasudhaiva kutumbakam does not get nullified when it comes to the treatment of Shudras. The caste system was merely organization of the society based on its functional parameters. It was just differentiating the academic/knowledge, the administrative/defence, the economic/trade, and the labor class segments. This is true order of all societies whether Islamic, Christian, or Hindu. So this interpretation that shudras were excluded from Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam is as nonsensical as it gets. The Shudras were the ones who designed and built the temples in the first place. All artists, sculptors, painters, agriculturists, etc, etc, fall under the Shudra class and it is simply astounding to hear people say this very backbone of the society will be excluded from a principle which identifies human brotherhood.

In Islam Jihad does not being with fighting inner vices considering none of the Islamics have ever been found to fight any of their inner vices ever in history of Islam. This is a recent disingenuous interpretation brought in to explain away the shame of the Jihad that is happening all over the world. Politics has always been at the core of Islam right from its beginning. If not, Islam would not have been so violent from its very beginning.

 

[Razia Sultana]

This is a normal Arab trait that has been imported into Islam - i.e me against you; you and me against our cousin; you, me and cousin against our neighbour; all of us against the next village. So Islamic countries frighting amongst each other is a norm rather than exception, but all of them get together when they fight against the Kuffar. Eg. Palestine. Indian muslims are more concerned about Palestine than they are concerned about the Kashmiri pundits who have been thrown out of Kashmir by their own Islamic brotherhood is a sufficient pointer.

You call it an arab trait. I am not concerned with that but please read "Mahabharata" where the whole family fought with each other and ruined their own clan. Why India was easily conquered by foreigners because Indian kings always fought against each other.

 

[Prajapati]

Arpita Khan, daughter of Saleem Khan and sister of Salman Khan,was raised in the Khan family and recently married off to a hindu boy.
What color you see depends on what color's glasses you are wearing.

Truly what you see is what you wish to see. Here is what you don't see, maybe because you don't wish to see.

Salman Khans mother was a Hindu. She remained a Hindu after marriage.

Arpita Khan's mother was a destitute who died on the foot path. She was adopted by Helen, who was a Christian. There is no evidence that Arpita Khan is a Hindu.

Every one of Salim Khans children has married Hindus because their mother was a Hindu. So your example is not appropriate.

How does it matter? I am not keen to know anyone's caste or religion. My profile name is Razia Sultana but I am not Razia Sultana.

LOL. Shame on you for lying. You just called him a Hindutva guy. So his religion DID matter to you.

I really don't give a fig what your name is.

You tell me what is the essence of being an Indian.
An indian regardless of his religion kills fellow indian to rob his money.
An Indian provokes and incites violence against a fellow India in the name of religion and people are killed regardless of which religion they belonged to.
4 or 5 indian muslims out of 150-200 millions joined ISIS which does not have support of any muslim country. Syria, Iraq,Turkey and Iran are fighting ISIS and Saudi Arabia and other muslim nations are ok with action against ISIS.

These are also facts. You can never find the whole truth if you see only one side of the coin.

All of them are facts, only you seem to want selective vision and not accept the uncomfortable facts. It is natural that people look with suspicion on those who do not share the same value system as them.

You yourself admitted that you put religion before Nationality. The obvious conclusion being that your patriotism is not absolute and given the right circumstances it can change and result in betrayal.

In a country like India where muslims have sided with other muslims invaders even when they had alliance with Hindu rulers, its only a case of history repeating itself.

Najib Khan were instrumental in inviting Abdali. Nawab of Awadh, Shuja ud Daulla sided with Abdali just cause he was a muslim. His alliance with the marathas was forgotten conveniently. That is just one example out of a thousand.

 

[Bitter Melon]

We have a choice to see good (80%), bad (20%) and ugly (miniscule 0.0001%). If you are hell bend on seeing the ugly then please tell me what the hindus have done for the kashmiri pundits? what have muslims said thats against the kashmiri pundits?
A tiger accuses the lamb down stream to malign his water and kills him. He had to kill him and soiling the water was only a fake accusation. If you suffer from Islamophobia then no amount of argument will help you.

80% may be good but it is the 20% who determine the course of history. It is not the 80% who have determined anything ever. Those 80% made way for the 20% bad and the ugly in their society by covering up for them and providing a base for them to flourish.


Yes, Hindu behavior has been shameful against the Kashmiri pundits, but then you must remember it was not the Hindus who were ruling India since independence. It was the secularists who were in charge. You have to see the decrepit Hindu holy places to know how much the secularists hated Hindus and Hinduism and how much Islam was loved.

For all its claims of being a better democracy, a secular society, etc, etc, is it not surprising that visitors to India and Pakistan always found the counties to be similar? That is because the secularist were out to carve a bigger Pakistan out of India with Islam as its flagship religion, Taj Mahal as its center piece icon.

What have the Muslims said against Kashmiri pundits? Well they just threatened them with rape and murder if they do not vacate the valley and threw them out of their homes. Apart from that they have been maintaining silence as if this never happened and Kashmiri pundits do not matter at all. Palestine is more important of course.

Well, the whole world seems to be suffering from Islamophobia and for good reason considering the amount of blood shed it is causing.


I know the Islamic tiger came down to lamb India and accused it of caste system and hoarding wealth to take over the land from the Indian lamb. That is how Islam came to in India. It was not the Indian tiger which went to hunt the Arabic lamb and make false accusations on them of muddying the waters.

 

[Hindustani78]

Now show me an example of an Muslim man doing that with a Hindu child.

Dia Mirza can be taken as example.

 

[Bitter Melon]

You call it an arab trait. I am not concerned with that but please read "Mahabharata" where the whole family fought with each other and ruined their own clan. Why India was easily conquered by foreigners because Indian kings always fought against each other.

Yes, Mahabharata was a fight between cousins for upholding Dharma. Which Islamic country is fighting the other to uphold Dharma or righteousness? They are fighting each other not for principle but for temporal stuff, resources, wealth, land.

India was not conquered by foreigners because Indian kings always fought against each other, but because they were a thriving civilization with focus not just on war but many other aspects of being civilized unlike the desert tribes who attacked India and whose only purpose in life was war.

 

[Razia Sultana]

No Vasudhaiva kutumbakam does not get nullified when it comes to the treatment of Shudras. The caste system was merely organization of the society based on its functional parameters. It was just differentiating the academic/knowledge, the administrative/defence, the economic/trade, and the labor class segments. This is true order of all societies whether Islamic, Christian, or Hindu. So this interpretation that shudras were excluded from Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam is as nonsensical as it gets. The Shudras were the ones who designed and built the temples in the first place. All artists, sculptors, painters, agriculturists, etc, etc, fall under the Shudra class and it is simply astounding to hear people say this very backbone of the society will be excluded from a principle which identifies human brotherhood.

In Islam Jihad does not being with fighting inner vices considering none of the Islamics have ever been found to fight any of their inner vices ever in history of Islam. This is a recent disingenuous interpretation brought in to explain away the shame of the Jihad that is happening all over the world. Politics has always been at the core of Islam right from its beginning. If not, Islam would not have been so violent from its very beginning.

"if a shudra hears the vedic verses, his ears should be filled with molten glass. If a shudra commits murder he should be brutally killed but if a brahmin commits murder he should be fined a few cows." If shudras made temples then why they were denied and are still denied entry in the temples? Why a temple is purified with cow dung and ganges water after a shudra chief minister pays a visit to the temple?
We admit that some muslims are bringing bad name to Islam by their wrong belief and practice of jihad and they are condemned. Politics have always used religion in the history of mankind. Samrat Ashok spread Buddhism and every ruler tried to spread hisreligion of choice not only in India but in Europe and elsewhere as well.

 

[Prajapati]

Dia Mirza can be taken as example.

Nope, her father was a Christian ad her mother was a Hindu.

Her step father was a muslim.