two murders in india and the need for revolution

[Razia Sultana]

You just called him a Hindutva guy. So his religion DID matter to you.

Please quote me where and whom I have called or referred anyone as a "Hindutva" guy???
You should be ashamed for lying.

 

[Prajapati]

Please quote me where and whom I have called or referred anyone as a "Hindutva" guy???
You should be ashamed for lying.

............. A bigger challenge was posed by Khalistanis but you will never doubt sikhs because they are part of your hindutva.
.......

............. NOW do you feel Shame ?

 

[Bitter Melon]

"if a shudra hears the vedic verses, his ears should be filled with molten glass. If a shudra commits murder he should be brutally killed but if a brahmin commits murder he should be fined a few cows." If shudras made temples then why they were denied and are still denied entry in the temples? Why a temple is purified with cow dung and ganges water after a shudra chief minister pays a visit to the temple?
We admit that some muslims are bringing bad name to Islam by their wrong belief and practice of jihad and they are condemned. Politics have always used religion in the history of mankind. Samrat Ashok spread Buddhism and every ruler tried to spread hisreligion of choice not only in India but in Europe and elsewhere as well.

Please, you should stop getting references from Zakir Naik kind of websites. It would never set you on the path of truth, just give you a few minutes of feel good titillation. It was the Shudras and outcastes who in fact composed all of our sacred texts if you must know.

What do the Vedas actually say about the shudras? The 17 mantras with the word shudra in them are as follows: Rig Veda (10:90:12); Yajur Veda (14:30; 18:48; 20:17; 23:30; 23:31; 26:2; 30:5; 30:22; 31:11); Atharva Veda (4:20:4; 4:20:8; 5:22:7; 10:1:3; 19:6:6; 19:32: 8; 19:62:1).

Yathemām vācham kalyānim āvadāni janebhyah.
Brahma-rājanyābhyām shudrāya cha aryāya cha svāya cha aranāya cha. (Yajur Veda 26:2).
The message here is that the Veda mantras are for the welfare and prosperity of all human beings including brahmins, rulers, shudras or vaishyas, as well as whether they are our kin or strangers.

Rucham no dhehi brāhmaneshu rucham rājsu naskradhi.
Rucham vishyeshu shudreshu mayi dhehi ruchā rucham. (Yajur Veda 18:48).
Lord, Give or bestow radiance (luster) to our brahmins, rulers, vaishyas and shudras. Give me radiance so that I too may become radiant.

Priyam mā darbh kranu brahmrājānyabhyam shudrāya cha aryāya cha.
Yasmai cha kāmyāmahe sarvasmai cha vipashyate. (Atharva Veda 19:32:8).
Lord, you are darbh—the destroyer of the wicked enemies. Make me dear to the learned, rulers, shudras, vaishyas and those whom we desire and all those who have different outlook.

Priyam mā kranu deveshu priyam rājsu mā kranu.
Priyam sarvasva pashyat uta shudra utārye. (Atharva Veda 19:62:1).
Make me dear to the learned, rulers, shudras, vaishyas and all who see me.

Yadgrāme yadaranye yatsabhāyām yadindriye.
Yachchhudre yadarye yadenashchkramā vayam yadekasyādhi dharmani tasyāvayajanasmasi. ( Yajur veda 20:17).
Lord, whatever sins we may have committed in the villages, in the forest, in meetings, against the shudras or vaishya, against any aspect of dharma, may you help us overcome our sins or shortcomings.

Brāhmanoasya mukhmāsid bāhū rājanyah krtah.
Madhyam tadasya yad vaishyah padbhyām shūdro ajāyata. (Atharva Veda 19:6:6).
The brahmin is His (Supreme Person’s, Lord’s,) mouth, the raja is His two arms. The vaishya is His middle (abdomen, belly); the shudra is born of His two feet.

This mantra is usually attributed as the basis of disdain for the shudras because it states shudra is born of Lord’s two feet. Let us look at the symbolism used in this mantra while describing the Supreme Person and varnas. Mouth is for talking, implying that learned persons are the spokesperson for the Lord or Society. Mouth is also the entry point for food, it makes sure that food is of good quality, but it does not hoard it, instead it passes food on to the abdomen (vaishya). The arms are our means of doing work and protecting ourselves. They help us get food but they again do not hoard it, instead they pass food on to the abdomen. Abdomen (vaishya) is for digesting the food (or wealth), and distributing the digested food (wealth) to all parts of the body (or society) to provide them with energy to do their work, but not to hoard it in the abdomen. A thin waist is better than a big potbelly as far health is concerned—obesity causes disease. The feet (shudra) support the body (or society). The labor of the shudras is what supports all societies. Feet or legs are integral components of the body, they support the body and help it move; we do not cut them off. A footless body can not move easily. Most Hindu devotional bhajans (songs) speak of praying at the Lord’s feet not at his head or mouth. The temple priest gives Prasād of Charnāmrit-food that has touched the feet (not head) of the moorti (icon) of the Lord.

Also you need to update your knowledge of what is a Shudra and who is a Brahmin.

Any distortion that came into the Hindu society were later day products of wars and invasions.

Who is denied entry to the temples? India barely has 5% Brahmins, you think those million of people thronging our temples everywhere are all Brahmins or upper castes? Wonder which world you guys live in?

If a shudra commits murder he should be brutally killed but if a brahmin commits murder he should be fined a few cows." If shudras made temples then why they were denied and are still denied entry in the temples? Why a temple is purified with cow dung and ganges water after a shudra chief minister pays a visit to the temple?

As per Manusmriti, everyone is born as a shudra. It is only education that differentiates children later on into different castes. Higher the education, the person is considered twice born. A Brahmin is a learned one. Not someone who is born to a Brahmin family.

The utility of a person for the society determined the worth of the individual. The Shudra commiting the murder of a Brahmin does not just kill an individual, but kills all the knowledge the society has spent considerable capital in for the Brahmin to acquire too with this murder. It is a loss to the society in a greater proportion than the death of an individual who has not much contribution to make to the society. So it is this loss which is taken into account when punishing an individual who murders the Brahmin. Not the individual but the knowledge contained in the individual.

It really comes down to this argument, if to choose between the life of one genius to 10 dumbs to save the society and the planet, which one would you value more?

The temple is purified everyday and it was merely mischievous rumor which made out that the temple cleaned itself for having been visited by the Chief Minister.

 

[Razia Sultana]

In a country like India where muslims have sided with other muslims invaders even when they had alliance with Hindu rulers, its only a case of history repeating itself.

Najib Khan were instrumental in inviting Abdali. Nawab of Awadh, Shuja ud Daulla sided with Abdali just cause he was a muslim. His alliance with the marathas was forgotten conveniently. That is just one example out of a thousand.

Have you heard of "Raja Jaichand" who allied with Mohd.Ghori against Prithvi Raj Chauhan? He was not a muslim.
Have you heard of "Veer Abdul Hamid" who gave his supreme sacrifice fighting against a muslim nation in 1965? He was a Muslim.

 

[Kaniska]

I really respect you for what you wrote in the end above.
But you are provoking a long debate as religion is about ones very own existence and not only beyond national boundaries but beyond the earth and universe. Its about individual and god, atma and paramatma, life and beyond life. It seems you are either an atheist or agnostic or have not understood your religion. Nevertheless, the question of nation or religion arises when they interfere with each other. tell me, has your nation come in the way of being an atheist or a hindu or a muslim? if yes, then how and where and we can debate. If no, then the matter ends. No point assuming things and worrying.
As regards to examples of Palestine, Nepal and Israel, please tell me whats there to debate? India, as a nation, has to safeguard her national interests. Our relations with Nepal has been up and down and so our relations with every other nation be it US, Russia, UK or any other country. More non muslims in India support Palestine cause than the entire muslim population of India because its on certain principles. Our defence relations have strengthened with Israel because they helped us in many ways during Kargil conflict. India and Pakistan are enemy nations. Still India is keen to do business with them and they are very keen to play cricket with us and we have diplomatic ties. Diplomacy is all about maintaining friendship with two enemies. World is not black and white and diplomacy is all about being grey. Being grey is accepting the black and accepting the white. So if a person prefers his religion over his nation, it does not make him any less nationalist.

It will be a long discussion...And again, the more and more i discuss with you..I enjoy our quality conversation...It is good to be in discussion or argument with you ...It is a long debate..sometimes later on...But of course, not in this forum where i would like to see you being confronted with so many of our people only...Of course that is not what i would like to see...
Feel happy to see such open minded and people who can have such honest discussion about religion and nationalism in this forum.

 

[Razia Sultana]

............. NOW do you feel Shame ?

Not to individual but my reference was for the agenda which sees only muslims as anti national for separatist movent in kashmir but when it comes to sikhs and khalistan it overlooks. The person may be talking of hindutva but he may not necessarily be a hindu. Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi is a mnister in Modi govt. and a muslim but he too talks of hindutva. My "your hindutva" terms will address him as well. An individual's religion does not matter to me. We have been brought up to respect people's personal faith and not discriminate on that basis.

 

[Prajapati]

Have you heard of "Raja Jaichand" who allied with Mohd.Ghori against Prithvi Raj Chauhan? He was not a muslim.
Have you heard of "Veer Abdul Hamid" who gave his supreme sacrifice fighting against a muslim nation in 1965? He was a Muslim.

The entire story of "Raja Jaichand" is a lie ............ this is what happens when you read "secular" history.

This has been exposed earlier in pdf so I am not going to repeat posting them again. You can look it up.


Jaichand FOUGHT Mohd. Ghori.


I have heard of both "veer Abdul Hamid", also Abdul Kalam and also "Dawood Ibrahim". All of them Muslims. Not all of them Patriots.

 

[Razia Sultana]

Also you need to update your knowledge of what is a Shudra and who is a Brahmin.

Any distortion that came into the Hindu society were later day products of wars and invasions.

Who is denied entry to the temples? India barely has 5% Brahmins, you think those million of people thronging our temples everywhere are all Brahmins or upper castes? Wonder which world you guys live in?

To my knowledge, all those who are declared scheduled castes by our constitution which is about 15 to 18% of national population are Shudras. that is roughly 1/4th of hindu population. Remaining 75% hindus account for about 60 crore people. There is no restriction on 60 crore but 20 crore shudras do face the problem. I dont know the population of Brahmins but I do know that a person born to a brahmin only can become a priest in a temple. A shudra, Vaishya or Kshatriya can not become a priest even if he is well qualified in sanskrit and other religious texts.

 

[Bitter Melon]

@Razia Sultana
That is a political classification, not the original religious. By the way, scheduled castes are not Shudras but are outcastes/Dalits, that is people who fell out of whichever was their original caste due to whatever reason. Even this distinction is not applied in any temples anywhere. Considering I am from the schedule caste, I should know.

A shudra, vaishya, kashatriya can become a temple priest and many are being trained even at this time to be so. In fact a lot of temples already have Shudra priests. Not just Shudra, but even Dalits who are lower than Shudras are being trained for becoming temple priest.

DK temple gets dalit women priests - The Times of India

Have you heard of "Raja Jaichand" who allied with Mohd.Ghori against Prithvi Raj Chauhan?

That story of Raja Jaichand has already been dispelled by @Anonymous here a couple of weeks back.

 

[Razia Sultana]

The entire story of "Raja Jaichand" is a lie ............ this is what happens when you read "secular" history.

This has been exposed earlier in pdf so I am not going to repeat posting them again. You can look it up.


Jaichand FOUGHT Mohd. Ghori.


I have heard of both "veer Abdul Hamid", also Abdul Kalam and also "Dawood Ibrahim". All of them Muslims. Not all of them Patriots.

Jaichand supported Mohd.Ghori against Prithvi Raj and later Ghori defeated Jaichand also.In the same way Rana Saanga supported Babur againsted Ibrahim Lodhi and later he was defeated by Babur himself. Jaichand, Meer Zafar and Vibhishan share the same place in history and mythology. My contention is that there is no hindu-muslim issue in such things.
And dont equate Dawood with Abdul Hamid or Abdul Kalam. Equate him with his likes like Chhota Rajan. If you keep tab of news you will remember that most ISI agents are hindus... so not all hindus are patriot. But do we accuse hindus as a whole of being traitors based on a few black sheeps?

 

[Prajapati]

Jaichand supported Mohd.Ghori against Prithvi Raj and later Ghori defeated Jaichand also.In the same way Rana Saanga supported Babur againsted Ibrahim Lodhi and later he was defeated by Babur himself. Jaichand, Meer Zafar and Vibhishan share the same place in history and mythology. My contention is that there is no hindu-muslim issue in such things.
And dont equate Dawood with Abdul Hamid or Abdul Kalam. Equate him with his likes like Chhota Rajan. If you keep tab of news you will remember that most ISI agents are hindus... so not all hindus are patriot. But do we accuse hindus as a whole of being traitors based on a few black sheeps?

There is no evidence of Jaichand supporting Mohd. Ghori. It is a LIE. Refer to Bitter Melon's post.

Rana Sanga invited babur but did not support babur in the war.

Your contention is built on lies and half truths, so it has to be dismissed.

Dawood is just an convenient and well known example. There are plenty others. You yourself admitted that your loyalty is first to religion and then to Nation. So if pakistan offers to attack India and convert all Hindus to Muslims your own admission provides a reason to accept their offer.

 

[Razia Sultana]

There is no evidence of Jaichand supporting Mohd. Ghori. It is a LIE. Refer to Bitter Melon's post.

Rana Sanga invited babur but did not support babur in the war.

Your contention is built on lies and half truths, so it has to be dismissed.

Dawood is just an convenient and well known example. There are plenty others. You yourself admitted that your loyalty is first to religion and then to Nation. So if pakistan offers to attack India and convert all Hindus to Muslims your own admission provides a reason to accept their offer.

And by your logic, if europeans promise to make India the golden bird that it was prior to being colonized provided all nationalists become christians, you will happily forgo your own religion for the good of your nation. huh.

 

[Prajapati]

And by your logic, if europeans promise to make India the golden bird that it was prior to being colonized provided all nationalists become christians, you will happily forgo your own religion for the good of your nation. huh.

1. "Golden Bird" indicates a helpless creature. It is an derisive reference. So I have NO Intention of seeing India s a "golden bird".

2. You assume what I want, without knowing anything about how I view India and where I would like to see it.

3. India's path to prosperity and global leadership is by strengthening its Roots. Its core social and civilization values that define Indians. Its Dharmic faith and values that mould thinking and guide action.

So as usual, you miss the train. (of thought)

 

[Hindustani78]

Nope, her father was a Christian ad her mother was a Hindu.

Her step father was a muslim.

She was raised by muslim step father Ahmed Mirza and he raised her since she was 6 years old and her real father expired in 1990.

 

[Prajapati]

She was raised by muslim step father Ahmed Mirza and he raised her since she was 6 years old and her real father expired in 1990.

She took on the name of her real father and changed her name to Dia Mirza Handrich. Why was that ?