Turkish Naval Programs

[Hurshid Celebi]

Just done above. But confidential docs with name, do you really want this ? I can't believe.
You or special members I trust and I know can get documents,
which never will hurt Turkish Security, are only THINK THANK and people are BLURRED.
No prob, Bro. Just send me a private

 

[LegionnairE]

@cabatli_53 I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have blue seas ambitions. Of course we should've. But we shouldn't assume that our territorial seas are secure. They are not. Russian black sea navy have expanded to twice it's size after Ukraine. Even though those are very old ships, they need to be kept in check.

TurAF's effectiveness is questionable after zillions of pilots resigned in protest after Ergenekon and Balyoz cases. Add that to the actual officers imprisoned by said attacks. I'm saying that TN's days of relying TurAF for air cover is over.

and we don't just need air defence frigates for long range missions. We need them right here!

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

Laser and other direct Energy Weapons are against Threats from Supersonic AShM, or do you see a Threat from Indian Navy ?

But Russian Navy and their allies whom they sell those weapons and platforms

You, or our friends were imprisoned ?
I assure 2016 all lacks are gone. FOR SURE
Retired experienced Airforce, Army and Navy Officers fitted for combat were activated as gap filler.
Ok, some of old friends are in civil service in security companies or civil naval companies.
But they were never %100 trustable.

 

[Neptune]

okay I hear you... so how about this.. we keep one third of our navy the way it is. And they would be patrolling the aegean.

I think the current doctrine and the order of battle is very suitable for aegean sea
but the ships patrolling black sea and the mediterranean should be the way I described...

threats have changed man... It's long overdue for the Turkish Armed Forces to make a threat assessment and include Israel and Russia in it. We are not just threatened by our border neighbors anymore

If we fight Russia or Israel, TurAF will be in no shape to cover TN.
That's the reality of it

Haber : 5 YILDA 21 HAVA FİLOSU YOK OLDU - Mehmetçik TV
TurAF isn't what it was 15 years ago
things are bad

That's right, Noway we are good as we used to be. Navy being the patient zero of this. Can't keep one third of it, the opposite we need to expand in terms of combatants and modernize our combat auxiliary fleet.

Primary naval threat at black Sea is the Russian surface. And in the south, its nothing, but A2AD over southern Cypriot shores. I understand your concerns over military and navy's AAW. But believe me we've done the best we could so far, and the next decade is to catch up with the upper league; TF-2000, Í-class...etc.

Apart from the two regional commands (Southern/Northern Sea Area) we do also have two separate task groups. One in south and one in north. These task groups are different than their local DZKK units. Consider that like a infantry vs commando. These groups are to directly enforce our foreign policy goals and planning force equalent against their primary threat perception in the area. Northern Task Group Command can be guessed to have greater ASW roles whereas its sister group command can be surface reliant. Again, tomorrow's threat perception at air can be entirely different that of today's, obviously it will. But today the only seaborne aerial thread is at the Aegean. In all these environments, mostly Aegean this is why the majority of guided AA armaments in the navy are ESSM. If we were in immediate need of such systems like you listed, we would have opted for SM-2 long before and even would put priority on long range SAMs instead of Hisar A/O. But this is also about how you use your navy. Is our Navy a part of our national air defense doctrine? Or does it have any tactical responsibility over a specific area? No it never had.

I am not saying this because am ex sailor but, if we knew the importance of a Navy for a peninsula county like ours; things would have been so much different.

As you see, a lot of factors are on display, and its pretty accurate to say, we're holding up the best way we could until new combatants arrive.

 

[LegionnairE]

That's right, Noway we are good as we used to be. Navy being the patient zero of this. Can't keep one third of it, the opposite we need to expand in terms of combatants and modernize our combat auxiliary fleet..

NO that's not what I meant

I meant one third of the navy could keep their SM1s and rest should upgrade to SM2
that's what I propose

We could send any collection of ships to long range missions frankly... other than showing their flag they don't do much. Simply because we don't have politicians who can see further than their noses.

I didn't try to say "we should shrink the navy to 1/3"
oh god that'd be horrible

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

All depends on good relations to USA. That's without doubts able in the future.

SM 2 is possible and negotiations for SM 3 on the way. That was a part of TPY-2 assessment in Türkiye.
SM 3 is a dream , maybe we can present some cards and arguments;
that needs a effective and trust able foreign policy !

 

[Neptune]

NO that's not what I meant

I meant one third of the navy could keep their SM1s and rest should upgrade to SM2
that's what I propose

We could send any collection of ships to long range missions frankly... other than showing their flag they don't do much. Simply because we don't have politicians who can see further than their noses.

I didn't try to say "we should shrink the navy to 1/3"
oh god that'd be horrible

Besides, we don't have any other objectives than showing flag. Because we don't have a global naval vision, not yet. But there's one for for future under the title "Middle-scale global operating capable". At the end of the day, it again comes to how we use the Navy..we had a discussion with @isoo on that. The vast Land Forces dominance at general headquarters and planning leads to comparison weaknesses over the AF and Navy. Hope we will have a white chief of staff one day. Good talking btw I had missed it ,

 

[mehmet75]

Never heard of that . Can you post link ?

i couldn't paste the adresses to the box. I guess it is paste-safe.whatever if you write " block-2 essm sign turkey " to the google, you will see sites like : janes, raytheon, militaryaerospace , australianaviation .

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

Better? You are MAYBE a Navy but can't imagine how world is ruled. Nevertheless I respect you and I wrote that before. Sole ÖKK education ( 3 languages) is 3 years and more..... hope you know; and you will never be sure after all, that you are an true ÖKK.
I want to see the boots soon. Allah rast getirsin

 

[Transhumanist]

I have never been more amused and disappointed at the same time as I am viewing this thread. It's like I stepped into an asylum.

Welcome to PDF's Turkish section:

That's right, Noway we are good as we used to be.

This reminds me of something I wanted to ask, how's the Turkish Military's integration? How well does the Navy support the Air Force and the Ground forces? Ironically this isn't an easy thing for militaries to do, it took years for the US Navy and Air Force to stop arguing over who does what and even today are they still learning to integrate their operations via Air-Sea battle and Cooperative Engagement Capability.

China's PLAN and PLAAF are just barely talking about integration, they haven't even really begun to do so. It's vital, but not easy for modern militaries.

While I agree with @LegionnairE that Turkey needs an arms upgrade too. SM-1... there's better options like SM-6 or Aster, even SM-2 is an upgrade, furthering the service's integration and training them to fight as a single entity rather than as cooperating, but individual parts, can go a long way to reducing the brittle nature of militaries and negate some of the technological deficiencies, though those shouldn't be allowed to linger either. A well trained, well disciplined, well integrated military fights better than a well armed, but tactically deficit force. Modern militaries survive by being cooperative and working as a single entity, not as individual parts.

How integrated are the Turkish Military's branches and are they being used as effectively as they should be? This can help solve some of the problems being noted in this recent discussion.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Transhumanist it's not integration that worries me... we're good at that
lessons have been taken after kocatepe incident, but I'm in a rush right now,

I'll get back to you when I have the time.
What's worrisome is TurAF's general condition after officer purges that was done by our beloved(!) politicians and the amount of pilot resignations in protest of that
@Neptune
if you put a link of your discussion with isoo I'll be glad to read it

I like reading your posts in general

 

[CekilinBenDoktorum]

@Transhumanist it's not integration that worries me... we're good at that
lessons have been taken after kocatepe incident, but I'm in a rush right now,

I'll get back to you when I have the time.
What's worrisome is TurAF's general condition after officer purges that was done by our beloved(!) politicians and the amount of pilot resignations in protest of that
@Neptune
if you put a link of your discussion with isoo I'll be glad to read it

I like reading your posts in general

Why is this guy lying?

Many of the TurAF Pilots are hired from THY and changed because they have better work conditions and salary in civil airliner industry.

if they Change it is because of work conditions. You understand this? THY growing fast and searching for many many Pilots!

 

[-SINAN-]

I have never been more amused and disappointed at the same time as I am viewing this thread. It's like I stepped into an asylum.

Welcome to PDF's Turkish section:

Use the ignore button please, we still have pretty much knowledgeable members on defense related issues. Just ignore the lunatics.

 

[Exocet]

How is SM-2 Block IV' s performance when compared to SM-6?

 

[Transhumanist]

How is SM-2 Block IV' s performance when compared to SM-6?

SM-6 has a longer range, includes active homing and has a superior counter-missile capability. It can also be tested without having to remove the missile from its canister, which saves money, and is not found on SM-3 or SM-2. SM-2 can be configured into a terminal ABM, SM-6 has that as a built in capability:

The missile may be employed in a number of modes: inertial guided to target with terminal acquisition using active radar seeker, semi-active radar homing all the way, or an over the horizon shot with Cooperative Engagement Capability. The missile is also capable of terminal ballistic missile defense as a supplement to the Standard missile three (RIM-161).

It can be used as a land-attack weapon as well:

The Navy is adding the Global Positioning System (GPS) to the SM-6 so it has the capability to strike stationary land targets if needed, but given its higher cost than other land attack weapons like the BGM-109 Tomahawk it would not likely be used as a primary option.

...

SM-6 is an all-around upgrade over SM-2 Block IV:

The SM-6 offers extended range over previous SM-2 series missiles, primarily being able to intercept very high altitude or sea-skimming anti-ship missiles; the missile is also capable of performing terminal phase ballistic missile defense. It can discriminate targets using its dual-mode seeker, with the semi-active seeker relying on a ship-based illuminator to highlight the target, and the active seeker having the missile itself send out an electromagnetic signal; the active seeker has the ability to detect a land-based cruise missile amid ground features, even from behind a mountain.

It's downside it its increased cost, which is why it supplements, but doesn't replace, SM-2:

The SM-6 is not meant to replace the SM-2 series of missiles, alongside which it will serve, but does give extended range and increased firepower.