Turkish Naval Programs

[Hexciter]

Replacing 127 mm cannon ? That is impossible(since,its simply last line of defence for a vessel which needs to operate flawlessly in most of conditions), especially while 5th generation fighters are even equipped with cannons.

Are you sure about that?
She seemed to me fit for a 127mm station on board

One more why should we spend money on a fully dependent gun including ammo?

 

[ANMDT]

One more why should we spend money on a fully dependent gun including ammo?

Because rail guns are not reliable yet, and wont be until 2030s. Cannons has been there for thousands of years and works with basic physics principles.

Moreover, the system induces a lot of magnetic field that would make ships detectable more easily,could interfere with radar or electronics of the own ;or even submarines or surface vessels can detect the anomaly quickly in large distances which radars may not reach. The worse, once a ship is induced you can not demagnetize it en-route,it needs to be docked.

When they took the prototypes out of their labs and actually test it on field (without preparing for days to shoot a piece ) then we can reevaluate their future situation. Ignoring the disadvantages.

Are you sure about that?

Pretty sure, if 5th gen jets are sticking with cannons, why destroyers wouldnt ? There are missiles accelarating instantly, BVRs yet they are still loaded with a silly cannon ,right?
Why should we give the last line of defence into hands of an experimental gun (as of now)?
Cannons are not like in WWII ,they are fast, can engage moving aerial targets and they are smart nowadays to use different ammunation. With proper ammunition can be armor piercing, air bursting or lethal against anti symmetric targets with particles.
First they should adapt railguns on land platforms, like in Korkut, or For Tanks.
Lasers ,in my opinion will appear sooner on naval platforms.

As a last saying,the picture you have attached was not even a prototype but a conceptual gun, it is more like future concept of what they have prototyped,which is again, a lab gun.I dont mean they should leave working on that, its the future of cannons but still early to talk about putting them on ships and claiming they are the best. And i stated earlier, Navies are conservative and TN is even more than the average.

 

[dBSPL]

Are you sure about that?
She seemed to me fit for a 127mm station on board
View attachment 580068
One more why should we spend money on a fully dependent gun including ammo?

Bro, main difference lies under cupola.

In conventional systems, the power required by the weapon systems can be a coupled with the ship's/vehicle's main electrical or propulsion system. However, railgun systems have a completely new field of engineering. The main problem here is that the magnetic launcher's batteries to fit on the mobile platforms where it will be used.

This means, roughly 1 container of area under deck and tonnes of exta load capacity required. Mr. ANMDT is quite an expert in marine engineering, and I am sure he can provide more detailed information that such a transformation is not that easy.

The level of maturation of technology is an issue that we should consider as a priority. Atmaca project is a very important indicator in this respect. Another important indicator is that, for example, TF2000 conceptual designs do not envisage full electric propulsion systems.

My personal opinion is that the ship is planned as different blocks.

 

[Hexciter]

And i stated earlier, Navies are conservative and TN is even more than the average.

That’s also true for all Turkish armed froces

 

[Kamil_baku]

Because rail guns are not reliable yet, and wont be until 2030s. Cannons has been there for thousands of years and works with basic physics principles.

Moreover, the system induces a lot of magnetic field that would make ships detectable more easily,could interfere with radar or electronics of the own ;or even submarines or surface vessels can detect the anomaly quickly in large distances which radars may not reach. The worse, once a ship is induced you can not demagnetize it en-route,it needs to be docked.

When they took the prototypes out of their labs and actually test it on field (without preparing for days to shoot a piece ) then we can reevaluate their future situation. Ignoring the disadvantages.

Pretty sure, if 5th gen jets are sticking with cannons, why destroyers wouldnt ? There are missiles accelarating instantly, BVRs yet they are still loaded with a silly cannon ,right?
Why should we give the last line of defence into hands of an experimental gun (as of now)?
Cannons are not like in WWII ,they are fast, can engage moving aerial targets and they are smart nowadays to use different ammunation. With proper ammunition can be armor piercing, air bursting or lethal against anti symmetric targets with particles.
First they should adapt railguns on land platforms, like in Korkut, or For Tanks.
Lasers ,in my opinion will appear sooner on naval platforms.

As a last saying,the picture you have attached was not even a prototype but a conceptual gun, it is more like future concept of what they have prototyped,which is again, a lab gun.I dont mean they should leave working on that, its the future of cannons but still early to talk about putting them on ships and claiming they are the best. And i stated earlier, Navies are conservative and TN is even more than the average.

what if the enemy shoot hypersonic missile to you, how you plan to stop it?

 

[ANMDT]

The level of maturation of technology is an issue that we should consider as a priority. Atmaca project is a very important indicator in this respect. Another important indicator is that, for example, TF2000 conceptual designs do not envisage full electric propulsion systems

Luckily its still in conceptual -feasibility phase, if someone anyhow foresees a change in trend (like actually done pretty well in design of milgem, but overdone a little), there are speaking of electrical systems and it has been suggested as a candidate.

This means, roughly 1 container of area under deck and tonnes of exta load capacity required. Mr. ANMDT is quite an expert in marine engineering, and I am sure he can provide more detailed information that such a transformation is not that easy

A typical cannon also occupies a volume beneath the deck, and unlike railguns their systems are bulky and rigid, you have no chance to split auto loaders and muniation stores but railgun would have such systems, the advantage is,you can placee batteries however you like and this would give a freedom and remove a bulky constraint, moreover i dont think anyone (including the world here) has a plan to integrate railgun into ship's electrical system. Ships,especially naval ones dont like such instant loadings on electrical systems. The question arises here, how many times a railgun can fire, how long does it take to recharge without an overload,and the most important one how to demagnetize it.

what if the enemy shoot hypersonic missile to you, how you plan to stop it?

As if a railgun would able to stop 5+ mach missile ?
Especially, cannon ciws are meant for that by creating walls for such threats.

 

[SİLAHDAR]

For Turkish :

Dostlar birşey söyleyeceğim sizlere ;

Şimdi bildiğimiz gibi 4 adet ilk aşamada i sınıfı yapacağız Allah bilir kaç seneye olacak. Tf-2000'lere hele hiç girmiyorum. İ sınıfını çok yıpranan yavuzların yerine yapacağız diyoruz. Gabya yerine yapılacak Tf-2000'ler ve ilki 2027'de gelecek diyoruz ve gabyalarımızın her biri şu an 40 yaşında. Ya donanma zafiyet yaşayacak yada dünyanın yüzdürülen en eski fırkateynlerine felan sahip olacağız ikiside sakıncalı.

Ancak elimizin altında mükkemmel bir fırsat var. Bu işi aslında yunanlıların yapması lazım ama onlar çoktan belharra rüyalarına dalmış gidiyorlar.
Şimdi efendim bu fransızların 18 ile 23 yaşları arasında 6 la fayette fırkateynleri var. Bu gemileri aslında çok büyük tasarlamışlar ancak düşük donanımlamışlar ve gemi en az bizim milgem kadar stealthtir. Aynı platformdan hatta daha kısa versiyonundan hava savunma gemisi felan yapmış singapurlular ha o kadar deyim. Şimdi bu Fransızlar bu daha yarı ömründeki gemileri elden çıkartıp ransadaki tershanelerdeki çarkları döndermek için belharraları envantere katmak istiyorlar.

Şimdi ben diyorumki ister 4 ister 5'ini bu gemileri kelle başı 200-250 milyon euro ya alsak. Genesis + smart-s mk2/ Smart-L ve akr-d block 2 veya Çafrad'ın çfr ve ayr li hafif versiyonu + atmaca + aster serisi veya g/40-Siper + Ram ile donatsak ve kafadan 25 sene kullansak. Çünkü gemi çok büyük ana topunun arkasında 32 vlslik (illa gömülü olmak zorunda değil.) ve arkadaki mica atıcının (ram veya yerli sapan ram ile değişebilir.) arkasınada yine 16x vls alabilir çok rahat. Zaten geminin 100 mm lik ana topu hakkında burak sınıfından eğitimli ve altyapılıyız.

Ortaya İ sınıfı civarında bir maliyet çıkar ve çıkacak 64x Aster-15/g-40 32x Aster-30/ Siper 'li bir gemiyi biz yarı maliyetine ancak sıfır geminin yarı ömürde ki 25 sene gider ve iyidir kullanmış olacağız ve elimizi çok fazla güçlendirecek. Bulunmaz fırsat. Aster ortaklığı smart-l vs belki fransızlar bu konuda yüreklenebilir.Bu platformdan şöyle bir canavar çıktı.

English For Other Users ;

Bro's we make 4 i class for replacement yavuz class. Our gabya's 40 years old and must be replaced. But first tf-2000 not coming early than 2027.

French's want to sell hers 18-23 years old la fayette's and make a belharra's for hers navy. For a continous o the french shipyards works.

İf we buy 4 la fayettes total 1 billion euro and modernize hims vls aster-15/30 or g/40-Siper and genesis and atmaca and ram and Smart-L or Çafrad-s it will be great stop gap air defence frigate like Formidable who have and share the same platform with la fayette. And this sips can be usable 25 years.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

For Turkish :

Dostlar birşey söyleyeceğim sizlere ;

Şimdi bildiğimiz gibi 4 adet ilk aşamada i sınıfı yapacağız Allah bilir kaç seneye olacak. Tf-2000'lere hele hiç girmiyorum. İ sınıfını çok yıpranan yavuzların yerine yapacağız diyoruz. Gabya yerine yapılacak Tf-2000'ler ve ilki 2027'de gelecek diyoruz ve gabyalarımızın her biri şu an 40 yaşında. Ya donanma zafiyet yaşayacak yada dünyanın yüzdürülen en eski fırkateynlerine felan sahip olacağız ikiside sakıncalı.

Ancak elimizin altında mükkemmel bir fırsat var. Bu işi aslında yunanlıların yapması lazım ama onlar çoktan belharra rüyalarına dalmış gidiyorlar.
Şimdi efendim bu fransızların 18 ile 23 yaşları arasında 6 la fayette fırkateynleri var. Bu gemileri aslında çok büyük tasarlamışlar ancak düşük donanımlamışlar ve gemi en az bizim milgem kadar stealthtir. Aynı platformdan hatta daha kısa versiyonundan hava savunma gemisi felan yapmış singapurlular ha o kadar deyim. Şimdi bu Fransızlar bu daha yarı ömründeki gemileri elden çıkartıp ransadaki tershanelerdeki çarkları döndermek için belharraları envantere katmak istiyorlar.

Şimdi ben diyorumki ister 4 ister 5'ini bu gemileri kelle başı 200-250 milyon euro ya alsak. Genesis + smart-s mk2/ Smart-L ve akr-d block 2 veya Çafrad'ın çfr ve ayr li hafif versiyonu + atmaca + aster serisi veya g/40-Siper + Ram ile donatsak ve kafadan 25 sene kullansak. Çünkü gemi çok büyük ana topunun arkasında 32 vlslik (illa gömülü olmak zorunda değil.) ve arkadaki mica atıcının (ram veya yerli sapan ram ile değişebilir.) arkasınada yine 16x vls alabilir çok rahat. Zaten geminin 100 mm lik ana topu hakkında burak sınıfından eğitimli ve altyapılıyız.

Ortaya İ sınıfı civarında bir maliyet çıkar ve çıkacak 64x Aster-15/g-40 32x Aster-30/ Siper 'li bir gemiyi biz yarı maliyetine ancak sıfır geminin yarı ömürde ki 25 sene gider ve iyidir kullanmış olacağız ve elimizi çok fazla güçlendirecek. Bulunmaz fırsat. Aster ortaklığı smart-l vs belki fransızlar bu konuda yüreklenebilir.Bu platformdan şöyle bir canavar çıktı.

English For Other Users ;

Bro's we make 4 i class for replacement yavuz class. Our gabya's 40 years old and must be replaced. But first tf-2000 not coming early than 2027.

French's want to sell hers 18-23 years old la fayette's and make a belharra's for hers navy. For a continous o the french shipyards works.

İf we buy 4 la fayettes total 1 billion euro and modernize hims vls aster-15/30 or g/40-Siper and genesis and atmaca and ram and Smart-L or Çafrad-s it will be great stop gap air defence frigate like Formidable who have and share the same platform with la fayette. And this sips can be usable 25 years.

Shortage of ''resources'' and time in all ways, and angles.

Some Hint: Altay.

 

[SİLAHDAR]

Shortage of ''resources'' and time in all ways, and angles.

Some Hint: Altay.

Shortage of ''resources' meaning in mediterran crisis lose to battle.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Shortage of ''resources' meaning in mediterran crisis lose to battle.

This is an international forum(so no detail to be shared), if you read/listen carefully in Turk forums/media; you will get what they are and who has caused them and why let them happen, of course if you can hold your temper and hope at the same time.

In the end, the question waits for you to ask who the real enemy of Turkey.

 

[ANMDT]

For Turkish :

Dostlar birşey söyleyeceğim sizlere ;

Şimdi bildiğimiz gibi 4 adet ilk aşamada i sınıfı yapacağız Allah bilir kaç seneye olacak. Tf-2000'lere hele hiç girmiyorum. İ sınıfını çok yıpranan yavuzların yerine yapacağız diyoruz. Gabya yerine yapılacak Tf-2000'ler ve ilki 2027'de gelecek diyoruz ve gabyalarımızın her biri şu an 40 yaşında. Ya donanma zafiyet yaşayacak yada dünyanın yüzdürülen en eski fırkateynlerine felan sahip olacağız ikiside sakıncalı.

Ancak elimizin altında mükkemmel bir fırsat var. Bu işi aslında yunanlıların yapması lazım ama onlar çoktan belharra rüyalarına dalmış gidiyorlar.
Şimdi efendim bu fransızların 18 ile 23 yaşları arasında 6 la fayette fırkateynleri var. Bu gemileri aslında çok büyük tasarlamışlar ancak düşük donanımlamışlar ve gemi en az bizim milgem kadar stealthtir. Aynı platformdan hatta daha kısa versiyonundan hava savunma gemisi felan yapmış singapurlular ha o kadar deyim. Şimdi bu Fransızlar bu daha yarı ömründeki gemileri elden çıkartıp ransadaki tershanelerdeki çarkları döndermek için belharraları envantere katmak istiyorlar.

Şimdi ben diyorumki ister 4 ister 5'ini bu gemileri kelle başı 200-250 milyon euro ya alsak. Genesis + smart-s mk2/ Smart-L ve akr-d block 2 veya Çafrad'ın çfr ve ayr li hafif versiyonu + atmaca + aster serisi veya g/40-Siper + Ram ile donatsak ve kafadan 25 sene kullansak. Çünkü gemi çok büyük ana topunun arkasında 32 vlslik (illa gömülü olmak zorunda değil.) ve arkadaki mica atıcının (ram veya yerli sapan ram ile değişebilir.) arkasınada yine 16x vls alabilir çok rahat. Zaten geminin 100 mm lik ana topu hakkında burak sınıfından eğitimli ve altyapılıyız.

Ortaya İ sınıfı civarında bir maliyet çıkar ve çıkacak 64x Aster-15/g-40 32x Aster-30/ Siper 'li bir gemiyi biz yarı maliyetine ancak sıfır geminin yarı ömürde ki 25 sene gider ve iyidir kullanmış olacağız ve elimizi çok fazla güçlendirecek. Bulunmaz fırsat. Aster ortaklığı smart-l vs belki fransızlar bu konuda yüreklenebilir.Bu platformdan şöyle bir canavar çıktı.

English For Other Users ;

Bro's we make 4 i class for replacement yavuz class. Our gabya's 40 years old and must be replaced. But first tf-2000 not coming early than 2027.

French's want to sell hers 18-23 years old la fayette's and make a belharra's for hers navy. For a continous o the french shipyards works.

İf we buy 4 la fayettes total 1 billion euro and modernize hims vls aster-15/30 or g/40-Siper and genesis and atmaca and ram and Smart-L or Çafrad-s it will be great stop gap air defence frigate like Formidable who have and share the same platform with la fayette. And this sips can be usable 25 years.

NATO suggests flotilla ships to be renewed after 30 years of service.
Gabyas are pretty strong and they could go under life extension maintenance, which can easily push their life span to 50 years at least. 40 years lifespan is economical lifespan of an average vessel, not valid for all.
If we had enough experience to equip and modernize french frigates into the AAW frigates,we could definitely build TF2000 earlier.
TF2000 is waiting for CAFRAD and air-defense missiles.

 

[Nutuk]

Re silahdar,

Taking the life of the ship in account taken for average ship is indeed 40 years.
However the Perry class ships were build very strong (ocean going) and we use them mainly around our shores, mediterranean and Aegean hence why the lifetime can go above 40.

Now if we had the vast American like budgets for our defence we should even replace our ships every 25 years but our resources have limits.

 

[xbat]

if you wanna be a weapon supplier you cant take used equipment, it is a shame..take into consider

 

[ANMDT]

if you wanna be a weapon supplier you cant take used equipment, it is a shame..take into consider

Perries were transferred in Turkey's weakest times. Back then there was only construction of fast attack boats and some other ships through licence from Germany. Economy wasnt stable and such systems were not affordable. And through time the dynamics of region has changed dramatically.

 

[SoftKill]

Good Work!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1175426797044948994