Turkish General: "Even burning a mosque was an option”

[amalakas]

Of course that was the plan. You didn't know we were going move to the “Atilla” line ? That was the original plan to begin with. It was why we broke the U.N. ceasefire. Once we reached that line the military plan put out was complete.

As far as your question. Yes i see nothing wrong with this in the context that it was done as propaganda in the war effort. As far as the morale implications of burning a religious building down i see it is wrong. Just like i see CIA torturing people as wrong and terror proxies targeting civilians as wrong. I also see what greek plan was if the coup succeed as wrong which was to completely wipe out the Turkish Cypriots as Nikos Sampson said in a interview.

man, I am a bit worried about the things you say and about you.

First, the interview was in 1981, perhaps, a result of all the provocation doctored by acts such as the one described by the turkish former General. But I will not stay on that.
I want to talk about something else.

What is it inside you that makes you believe that aggressive tactics such as this (and the lies that go with them) are justified in any sense ?

I don't know if you realised it, but that admission was the nail to the coffin of any (thin as it was) moral ground and justification the then leadership had on the cyprus issue.

Your admission as well, shows beyond any doubt that you are ok with practices such as these.

At the end of the day, jigs, i don't think you are doing your side any favours by saying you are ok with this, don't you see that aside from other things it puts your side firmly on the side of the offender who simply manufactured an excuse to gain more from something they shouldn't.

I have heard a million times about the enosis and all that crap... At the time Greece was under a junta, which was installed by the americans, WHO BEYOND ANY DOUBT moved behind the scenes to serve turkish plans that are now openly admitted to all ...

were is the justification in anything that happened anymore... ?

I don't know about you, but I can hear the moral ground slipping under turkish feet, and I am concerned that you are loosing your moral ground as well..

i hope it isn't so...

 

[Jigs]

man, I am a bit worried about the things you say and about you.

First, the interview was in 1981, perhaps, a result of all the provocation doctored by acts such as the one described by the turkish former General. But I will not stay on that.
I want to talk about something else.

What is it inside you that makes you believe that aggressive tactics such as this (and the lies that go with them) are justified in any sense ?

I don't know if you realised it, but that admission was the nail to the coffin of any (thin as it was) moral ground and justification the then leadership had on the cyprus issue.

Your admission as well, shows beyond any doubt that you are ok with practices such as these.

At the end of the day, jigs, i don't think you are doing your side any favours by saying you are ok with this, don't you see that aside from other things it puts your side firmly on the side of the offender who simply manufactured an excuse to gain more from something they shouldn't.

I have heard a million times about the enosis and all that crap... At the time Greece was under a junta, which was installed by the americans, WHO BEYOND ANY DOUBT moved behind the scenes to serve turkish plans that are now openly admitted to all ...

were is the justification in anything that happened anymore... ?

I don't know about you, but I can hear the moral ground slipping under turkish feet, and I am concerned that you are loosing your moral ground as well..

i hope it isn't so...

Do you really think it is just Turkey that has committed acts such as this ? Every country has at some point has. Just like war crimes have happened in every single war that has occurred in the modern age. To understand this generals thought process you must understand why military coups have happened in Turkey. Is the process of overthrowing and hanging people by force right ? Of course not. Depending on how you view it they can be a necessary evil. The burning of the mosque is similar. In a military mindset the burning of the religious building and blaming it on the enemy results in heavy resistance towards the enemy. It is certainly logical in a war atmosphere to do this. Generals job was to get the civilian resistance and this certainly would have done that. It would have been considered special warfare too.

 

[amalakas]

Do you really think it is just Turkey that has committed acts such as this ? Every country has at some point has. Just like war crimes have happened in every single war that has occurred in the modern age. To understand this generals thought process you must understand why military coups have happened in Turkey. Is the process of overthrowing and hanging people by force right ? Of course not. Depending on how you view it they can be a necessary evil. The burning of the mosque is similar. In a military mindset the burning of the religious building and blaming it on the enemy results in heavy resistance towards the enemy. It is certainly logical in a war atmosphere to do this. Generals job was to get the civilian resistance and this certainly would have done that. It would have been considered special warfare too.

if i accept what you are saying for a moment, then a very hard question comes to mind, which i must warn you, involves the said General's entire statements, so if you haven't read them, don't be too quick to say something that may turn against u later on.

accepting what you just said as "ok in warfare" jigs, begs the question.

Who were you at war with? because if I remember correctly (which i do) any military hostilities took place a long time after the said events.
And if that is as things were, turkey was not at war with anyone, they were merely planning to start one. And that doesn't show any kind of defence, that shows offense i am afraid.

 

[Tuahaa]

You two have a disagreement. Tuahaa says this is wrong, but AZ holds that blackening the name of non-Muslims in the cause of war is O.K.

Yet Tuahaa, if you learned that a mosque in Pakistan had burned down and the P.A. reported to the press, anonymously, that Americans were responsible, wouldn't you join AZ in a protest at the U.S. embassy, even to burning it down "in response"?

And Abu Zolfiqar, since you think this is all O.K., what would your response be if the LeT or Pakistan Taliban declared that you weren't Muslim enough for them and decided to burn down your home, seize your property, and expel you from your home town?

Jeez why this sentiment Suleymaan

I never said it was okay, in Pakistan, Turkey or anywhere.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Solomon u have selective syndrome dont u?u shy away frm flottila raids,tantura massacres etc and post news like these?

Though the general must be a dumb arse.

 

[Solomon2]

I never said it was okay, in Pakistan, Turkey or anywhere.

Yet this has already happened in Pakistan, when the U.S. embassy was burned down in 1979 on the rumor - spread by Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini - that the U.S. was behind the takeover of the Great Mosque in Mecca. link And that was before two generations of Islamist indoctrination in Pakistan. So aren't Pakistanis even more vulnerable to this type of manipulation today? How would you go about fighting it? Would you even want to, Tuahaa?

 

[Tuahaa]

Yet this has already happened in Pakistan, when the U.S. embassy was burned down in 1979 on the rumor - spread by Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini - that the U.S. was behind the takeover of the Great Mosque in Mecca. link And that was before two generations of Islamist indoctrination in Pakistan. So aren't Pakistanis even more vulnerable to this type of manipulation today? How would you go about fighting it? Would you even want to, Tuahaa?

Before I give you my opinion, I am only speaking for myself and not other people.

I dunno... as an average Muslim, I guess I could say stop using people's beliefs to instigate them- what people like that are doing shows they're probably hypocrites. Remember terrorism is a tactic of war, not an entity.

I'm not speaking for Pakistan here, but I must say that religion for us is a very, very personal thing as well as many other Muslims. Many of us are willing to die for it- though some of us don't have full knowledge of Islam itself and end up being used by political forces.

I was doing a project on Soviet Afghan project where, when they needed to bolster the numbers of the Mujahideen, the US commanders (video footage) went up to the common afghan men and shouted things like "This is your God given land", "You must fight to defend Islam", etc...

Anyhow, its when religion is used a political force incorrectly is where it can be a bit of a problem. Other times, it's used to benefit.

Pakistan's father, Quaid-e-Azam, wasn't a good Muslim. He used Islam as a political force because he saw that Muslims weren't being treated correctly in united India and would be much better off as a separate nation (this belief is shared by myself, as well as many other Pakistanis).

Anyway, I gotta sleep now!

 

[Panther]

A false flag operation by another nationality other than an American one? Who'd thunk it?

 

[Tuahaa]

I dunno, it seems to be catching on

 

[LegionnairE]

Im sure the general wont be arrested in ergenekon after he say this things...

We cant know pretty much about background of this news. I see all AKP supported media spreading sh*t about army. Trying to show the army as enemy of religion, Its a part of their future plans... a new regime

 

[amalakas]

Im sure the general wont be arrested in ergenekon after he say this things...

We cant know pretty much about background of this news. I see all AKP supported media spreading sh*t about army. Trying to show the army as enemy of religion, Its a part of their future plans... a new regime

Knowing what I know, I doubt he is lying. Anyway, I posted my view on the issue a few posts up.. the whole issue bothers me to be honest.

 

[Panther]

I dunno, it seems to be catching on

Hopefully this doesn't come across to you as condescending, but this has always been a very popular method of confusing the very people that it is intended for. In this case, it wasn't aimed so much at the Greeks as it was at getting the Turkish population to go along with it. And yes, it works more often than not regardless of ones nationality.

Mimicry, inside job, black propaganda, covert operations... deception is an old idea for a tactic with a seemingly different name with each new conflict.

 

[cabatli_53]

Actually, TSK CAN NOT perform anything without asking Government. Before wars, operations, TSK Strategist work many days on a plan and Those plans have to be approved by civilian authorities, governers and Ministerial cabinets as well before taking into effect and Anybody can not go out of this plan.

I never discuss the correctness of such state secrets. After all, It has to be performed to serve a mission in a battle environment and Every serious countries have such state secrets kept hidden in government archieves. You may think emotional I respect but WAR is not a joke. At current statues, After AKP came into force, The State Secrets have been servicing into their cohort medias by AKP in order to point TSK like an anti-Islam organisation in public minds. That's not new. The people following the Turkish agendas correctly, They can easily watch/read a new Turkish state secrets (Such as causing sansations or funding the separatists to the countries who support PKK...etc ) that is serviced to medias by the hands of AKP to direct TSK like Infidel, Source of trouble...etc

Besides, Such news, Personnel or governmental faults, Deep states, State secrets have nothing to do with M. Kemal Ataturk and his ideology. Do not try to find a trump to attak on his personality cause of politic and ideological reasons. If you keep, I will start responding so hard to such sick people.

 

[LegionnairE]

Knowing what I know, I doubt he is lying. Anyway, I posted my view on the issue a few posts up.. the whole issue bothers me to be honest.

It would be stupid if i ask your feelings about cyprus war. Turkey had to invade the island sooner or later. Whatever no one can deny, it was a successful operation

I dont really care if he really did burn a mosque even the burn verb is sounding stupid to me as an M48 patton tank can demolish a mosque with a few shots. We gained our land we can build thousands of mosques. Its not necessary to discuss it.

There are two questions to ask

Why do we need a propaganda like this? Even 1963 events were enough reason to invade the island.

Why the General is talking now? Its a very important question in my opinion...

 

[LegionnairE]

Actually, TSK CAN NOT perform anything without asking Government. Before wars, operations, TSK Strategist work many days on a plan and Those plans have to be approved by civilian authorities, governers and Ministerial cabinets as well before taking into effect and Anybody can not go out of this plan.

Well said, we were preparing for war for a long time, my uncle was a soldier in Hatay/İskenderun in 1968. We were talking some hours ago about landing exercises he participated