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Turkey’s S-400 vs F-35 dilemma in 2019

F-35 vs S-400; If Turkey had to choose one, which one should it choose?

  • F-35

  • S-400

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Turkey, Russia close to deal for Sukhoi SU-35 fighter jets
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s/news-story/3267014a2104d0d7068de5a7e5db8505

Moscow and Ankara are close to reaching a deal on a sale of Russian-made Sukhoi SU-35 fighter jets to Turkey, and for some of the components of the planes to be co-manufactured.

The revelation comes two months after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan attended the International Aviation and Space Salon aviation show near Moscow.

During that visit Erdogan was shown the Su-35 fighter jets.

Turkey could buy as many of 36 jets.

d25b2e7f709e9514518b5e5b04cbbc56

Turkey is said to be close to a deal to buy Russian Sukhoi SU-35 jet fighters. Picture: AFPSource:AFP

Turkey has been at odds with the United States over its purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems, which Washington says are not compatible with NATO defences and poses a threat to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 ‘stealth’ fighter jets.

The United States has also expelled Turkey from the F-35 program, but Ankara has so far dismissed the warnings.

That news comes after a fresh disagreement between Erdogan and Donald Trump broke out.

New York Post reports, Erdogan demanded President Trump “hand over” the leader of a Kurdish militia who has been invited to testify before Congress, as the crisis in war-torn Syria deepens.

MORE: Is Trump using government powers to target his enemies?

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urkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan speaks during an interview with Turkey's state television, TRT, in Istanbul. Picture: APSource:AP

“He is a terrorist with the code name Mazloum,” Erdogan told state broadcaster TRT late on Thursday, according to Bloomberg. “America needs to hand over this man to us.”

Erdogan made the demand on Turkish state television just hours after Trump praised the head of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, Mazloum Abdi.

“I really enjoyed my conversation with General @MazloumAbdi. He appreciates what we have done, and I appreciate what the Kurds have done,” Trump tweeted Thursday. “Perhaps it is time for the Kurds to start heading to the Oil Region!”

The SDF was a key ally in the U.S. battle against ISIS in northern Syria in recent years, but Erdogan considers them a threat because they have links to Kurdish separatists fighting for their own homeland in Turkey.

43836ce6f89831c80f61758c420100e0

President Donald Trump has praised the head of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, Mazloum Abdi. Picture: APSource:AP

Leading Democrats and Republicans have fiercely criticised Trump’s October decision to have American troops stand aside and allow Erdogan to launch an offensive targeting the Kurds.

Despite Trump’s decision, lawmakers on Capitol Hill are trying to maintain America’s ties with the Kurds.

A bipartisan group of senators have asked Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to help secure a visa for Abdi to visit the U.S. and discuss the way forward in Syria.

Part of this report originally appeared in the New York Post and are republished here with permission.



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https://twitter.com/x/status/1201808747053625350

US President Trump:

▪️Tukey bought billions of dollars worth of F-35 combat aircraft (as a program partner)

▪️ If we don't give them these, they'il look for other places (He implies Su-57 or Chinese systems)

▪️ Obama blocks Patriot sale, and then they received S400s from the Russians.

▪️ Turkey is a key NATO member.
 
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dBSPL said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1201808747053625350

US President Trump:

▪️Tukey bought billions of dollars worth of F-35 combat aircraft (as a program partner)

▪️ If we don't give them these, they'il look for other places (He implies Su-57 or Chinese systems)

▪️ Obama blocks Patriot sale, and then they received S400s from the Russians.

▪️ Turkey is a key NATO member.
Click to expand...


This man is crazy at times but 100 times better than Obama
 
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Last edited:
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TheMightyBender said:
Could you be a doll and quote the part of the bargain that says JSF members cannot buy air defence systems?
Click to expand...

Not that JSF members cannot buy Air Defence Systems, but JSF member cannot buy Russian Air Defence System.

In Counter America Adversary Through Sanction Act 2017 Section 231 states that US State Department can prescribe Sanction to country that purchase any system thru any company listed in Section 231e, the prescribed sanction are prescribed in Section 235

https://www.state.gov/countering-am...h-sanctions-act-of-2017/sections-231-and-235/
​
SEC. 235. SANCTIONS DESCRIBED.

(a) SANCTIONS DESCRIBED.—The sanctions to be imposed with respect to a person under section 224(a)(2), 231(b), 232(a), or 233(a) are the following:

(1) EXPORT-IMPORT BANK ASSISTANCE FOR EXPORTS TO SANCTIONED PERSONS.—The President may direct the Export-Import Bank of the United States not to give approval to the issuance of any guarantee, insurance, extension of credit, or participation in the extension of credit in connection with the export of any goods or services to the sanctioned person.

(2) EXPORT SANCTION.—The President may order the United States Government not to issue any specific license and not to grant any other specific permission or authority to export any goods or technology to the sanctioned person under—

(A) the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. 4601 et seq.) (as continued in effect pursuant to the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.));

(B) the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.);

(C) the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2011 et seq.); or

(D) any other statute that requires the prior review and approval of the United States Government as a condition for the export or reexport of goods or services.

(3) LOANS FROM UNITED STATES FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.—The President may prohibit any United States financial institution from making loans or providing credits to the sanctioned person totaling more than $10,000,000 in any 12-month period unless the person is engaged in activities to relieve human suffering and the loans or credits are provided for such activities.

(4) LOANS FROM INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.—The President may direct the United States executive director to each international financial institution to use the voice and vote of the United States to oppose any loan from the international financial institution that would benefit the sanctioned person.

(5) PROHIBITIONS ON FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.—The following prohibitions may be imposed against the sanctioned person if that person is a financial institution:

(A) PROHIBITION ON DESIGNATION AS PRIMARY DEALER.—Neither the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System nor the Federal Reserve Bank of New York may designate, or permit the continuation of any prior designation of, the financial institution as a primary dealer in United States Government debt instruments.

(B) PROHIBITION ON SERVICE AS A REPOSITORY OF GOVERNMENT FUNDS.—The financial institution may not serve as agent of the United States Government or serve as repository for United States Government funds. The imposition of either sanction under subparagraph (A) or (B) shall be treated as 1 sanction for purposes of subsection (b), and the imposition of both such sanctions shall be treated as 2 sanctions for purposes of subsection (b).

(6) PROCUREMENT SANCTION.—The United States Government may not procure, or enter into any contract for the procurement of, any goods or services from the sanctioned person.

(7) FOREIGN EXCHANGE.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations as the President may prescribe, prohibit any transactions in foreign exchange that are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and in which the sanctioned person has any interest.

(8) BANKING TRANSACTIONS.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations as the President may prescribe, prohibit any transfers of credit or payments between financial institutions or by, through, or to any financial institution, to the extent that such transfers or payments are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and involve any interest of the sanctioned person.

(9) PROPERTY TRANSACTIONS.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations as the President may prescribe, prohibit any person from—

(A) acquiring, holding, withholding, using, transferring, withdrawing, transporting, importing, or exporting any property that is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and with respect to which the sanctioned person has any interest;

(B) dealing in or exercising any right, power, or privilege with respect to such property; or

(C) conducting any transaction involving such property.

(10) BAN ON INVESTMENT IN EQUITY OR DEBT OF SANCTIONED PERSON.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations or guidelines as the President may prescribe, prohibit any United States per son from investing in or purchasing significant amounts of equity or debt instruments of the sanctioned person.

(11) EXCLUSION OF CORPORATE OFFICERS.— The President may direct the Secretary of State to deny a visa to, and the Secretary of Homeland Security to exclude from the United States, any alien that the President determines is a corporate officer or principal of, or a shareholder with a controlling interest in, the sanctioned person.

(12) SANCTIONS ON PRINCIPAL EXECUTIVE OFFICERS.—The President may impose on the principal executive officer or officers of the sanctioned person, or on persons performing similar functions and with similar authorities as such officer or officers, any of the sanctions under this subsection.

(b) SANCTIONED PERSON DEFINED.—In this section, the term ‘‘sanctioned person’’ means a person subject to sanctions under section 224(a)(2), 231(b), 232(a), or 233(a).

And the S-400 subsystem were designed and made by Almaz-Antey Air and Space Defense Corporation JSC, which was on th Section 231e list

https://www.state.gov/caatsa-sectio...-of-the-government-of-the-russian-federation/

So according to this law, the State Department will revoke the export licenses as per Section 235 Clause 2B and stop the export license of F-35 fighter to Turkey. Unless Turkey could obtain a waiver or the deliver of such article would be held back. And I don't believe there would be compensation because it was a sanction.
 
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KungFuLee said:

Not that JSF members cannot buy Air Defence Systems, but JSF member cannot buy Russian Air Defence System.

In Counter America Adversary Through Sanction Act 2017 Section 231 states that US State Department can prescribe Sanction to country that purchase any system thru any company listed in Section 231e, the prescribed sanction are prescribed in Section 235

https://www.state.gov/countering-am...h-sanctions-act-of-2017/sections-231-and-235/
​
SEC. 235. SANCTIONS DESCRIBED.

(a) SANCTIONS DESCRIBED.—The sanctions to be imposed with respect to a person under section 224(a)(2), 231(b), 232(a), or 233(a) are the following:

(1) EXPORT-IMPORT BANK ASSISTANCE FOR EXPORTS TO SANCTIONED PERSONS.—The President may direct the Export-Import Bank of the United States not to give approval to the issuance of any guarantee, insurance, extension of credit, or participation in the extension of credit in connection with the export of any goods or services to the sanctioned person.

(2) EXPORT SANCTION.—The President may order the United States Government not to issue any specific license and not to grant any other specific permission or authority to export any goods or technology to the sanctioned person under—

(A) the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. 4601 et seq.) (as continued in effect pursuant to the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.));

(B) the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.);

(C) the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2011 et seq.); or

(D) any other statute that requires the prior review and approval of the United States Government as a condition for the export or reexport of goods or services.

(3) LOANS FROM UNITED STATES FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.—The President may prohibit any United States financial institution from making loans or providing credits to the sanctioned person totaling more than $10,000,000 in any 12-month period unless the person is engaged in activities to relieve human suffering and the loans or credits are provided for such activities.

(4) LOANS FROM INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.—The President may direct the United States executive director to each international financial institution to use the voice and vote of the United States to oppose any loan from the international financial institution that would benefit the sanctioned person.

(5) PROHIBITIONS ON FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.—The following prohibitions may be imposed against the sanctioned person if that person is a financial institution:

(A) PROHIBITION ON DESIGNATION AS PRIMARY DEALER.—Neither the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System nor the Federal Reserve Bank of New York may designate, or permit the continuation of any prior designation of, the financial institution as a primary dealer in United States Government debt instruments.

(B) PROHIBITION ON SERVICE AS A REPOSITORY OF GOVERNMENT FUNDS.—The financial institution may not serve as agent of the United States Government or serve as repository for United States Government funds. The imposition of either sanction under subparagraph (A) or (B) shall be treated as 1 sanction for purposes of subsection (b), and the imposition of both such sanctions shall be treated as 2 sanctions for purposes of subsection (b).

(6) PROCUREMENT SANCTION.—The United States Government may not procure, or enter into any contract for the procurement of, any goods or services from the sanctioned person.

(7) FOREIGN EXCHANGE.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations as the President may prescribe, prohibit any transactions in foreign exchange that are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and in which the sanctioned person has any interest.

(8) BANKING TRANSACTIONS.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations as the President may prescribe, prohibit any transfers of credit or payments between financial institutions or by, through, or to any financial institution, to the extent that such transfers or payments are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and involve any interest of the sanctioned person.

(9) PROPERTY TRANSACTIONS.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations as the President may prescribe, prohibit any person from—

(A) acquiring, holding, withholding, using, transferring, withdrawing, transporting, importing, or exporting any property that is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and with respect to which the sanctioned person has any interest;

(B) dealing in or exercising any right, power, or privilege with respect to such property; or

(C) conducting any transaction involving such property.

(10) BAN ON INVESTMENT IN EQUITY OR DEBT OF SANCTIONED PERSON.—The President may, pursuant to such regulations or guidelines as the President may prescribe, prohibit any United States per son from investing in or purchasing significant amounts of equity or debt instruments of the sanctioned person.

(11) EXCLUSION OF CORPORATE OFFICERS.— The President may direct the Secretary of State to deny a visa to, and the Secretary of Homeland Security to exclude from the United States, any alien that the President determines is a corporate officer or principal of, or a shareholder with a controlling interest in, the sanctioned person.

(12) SANCTIONS ON PRINCIPAL EXECUTIVE OFFICERS.—The President may impose on the principal executive officer or officers of the sanctioned person, or on persons performing similar functions and with similar authorities as such officer or officers, any of the sanctions under this subsection.

(b) SANCTIONED PERSON DEFINED.—In this section, the term ‘‘sanctioned person’’ means a person subject to sanctions under section 224(a)(2), 231(b), 232(a), or 233(a).

And the S-400 subsystem were designed and made by Almaz-Antey Air and Space Defense Corporation JSC, which was on th Section 231e list

https://www.state.gov/caatsa-sectio...-of-the-government-of-the-russian-federation/

So according to this law, the State Department will revoke the export licenses as per Section 235 Clause 2B and stop the export license of F-35 fighter to Turkey. Unless Turkey could obtain a waiver or the deliver of such article would be held back. And I don't believe there would be compensation because it was a sanction.
Click to expand...

Useless U.S protectionism law shit, to strengthen U.S defence companies and weaken the oopposite.
 
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Bismarck said:
Useless U.S protectionism law shit, to strengthen U.S defence companies and weaken the oopposite.
Click to expand...

If you ask me, that is unfair, in fact, some would suggest this "anti-competition" law is actually violating US own anti-trust law. I don't think other country have such restriction. If I remember correctly, the CAATSA passed because the US Congress uses National Security Card to trump the existing anti-trust law. Which CAATSA only applies to US own adversary (Like China, Russia and Iran) but not everyone are included, I think the UK and Germany for example are exempted.

On the other hand, country have its own protectionist measure, if not this, there may be something they would do to undermine other company, I don't think any company in the world is happy to see their customer go and buy other people stuff.

But all in all, their country, their rules, it's up to them to set up law they seems fit, and it is up to the consumer to buy whatever they want, I mean, just like anything, if you like the deal, you take it, if you don't, walk away, nobody is forcing anybody to complete any transaction
 
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Will be a combinations of drones, seahawks and atak´s i believe since the f35 fall away.
 
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