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Turkey’s Air Force Is Obsolete, Warns New Study

That's being too optimistic. Just like the Indians claiming they will have their AMCA fifth generation fighter ready by that time frame as well. I don't believe that, and the Indians even have better experience, since at least they have barely managed to designed and built a semi 4th generation fighter jet(and that again with lots of western/Israeli help/input) and that's after several decades of painful work and trials.
If building airframes/parts and assembly of fighter jets was the barometer to build a credible fighter jet, then several countries around the world will be doing that long ago today. lol It seems to me that some of you guys underestimate the difficulties/complexity of building such an advanced complex fighter, it is not a child's play, especially for a new entrant/country who has no prior experience doing so before, that's without even counting the cost(why you think we are brought in Italy/Sweden and are open to more countries joining our tempest program?). The hell even an advanced experienced industrial power like Russia has been struggling with the development of it's SU-57 fifth generation fighter.



India is a bad example as it is a poor 3rd world country with almost no advanced industrial base.

Turkey is far higher up the technological base - Turkey exports around 2-3 billion US dollars a year in defence products compared to less than 1 billion US dollars for India.

I think there are two main areas that Turkey needs outside help in if it wants to succeed on TF-X:

1. Engines - it probably won't even have a half-decent 4th gen engine ready by the early 2030s, let alone a 5th gen one.

2. Systems integration - it needs to pick a partner like BAe or Saab to provide the expertise for it.


Turkey does have an advantage in that if it can get a half-decent fighter in production then it will likely get orders from Muslim countries like Pakistan, BD and some others like Azerbaijan and maybe Qatar. Remember Pakistan ordered 30- T-129 attack helicopters from Turkey but the US vetoed its sale due to US engine. The Turks are now trying to get their own engine ready by mid-decade.


As for Russia, I think the SU-57s woes are more due to Russia trying to build a 5th gen fighter on the cheap rather than any lack of industrial capability - although their inability to even get their first AESA radar on one of their 4th gen fighters suggest that they are falling behind the rest in fighter radar technology.
 
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Turkey doesnt need old technologies like MIG-29 , Rafale , SU-35s which were bought by Egypt


in 2002 Turkey joined the JSF ( F35 ) program to buy 100+32 F-35s to replace F-4s and F-16 block30s
but treacherous The US is blocking transfer of F35s to Turkey since 2015

but if no F-35 ....no problem
until 2025 Turkish Airforce will have air superiority Jet Drone MIUS armed with AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles + AESA Radar + data link
1620657318433.png



Rafale and SU-35 will not change anything against Turkish Airforce when MIUS unmanned Fighter Jet enter service in 2025


Turkish Airforce by 2025 to become the most dangerest air force with Israeli Airforce in the region

-- 163 CCIP modernized F-16
-- 35 OZGUR modernized F-16
-- National AESA Radar for F-16 modernized
-- MIUS air superiority unmanned Fighter Jet
-- HURJET light attack Jet
-- AKINCI UCAV
-- IHA-SOJ
-- IHA-AEWC
-- 1.000+ km KARGI anti-radiation Missile
-- S400 Air Defense System
-- HISAR-A , HISAR-O , HISAR-U and SIPER Air Defense System
-- KORAL and REDET Radar Electronic Warfare Systems
-- 600/700 km EIRS early warning AESA Radars
-- 4 Boeing E7-T AEWC with 600km PESA Radar
-- 4 HAVASOJ stand off jammer Aircrafts

-- AIM-9x and BOZDOGAN WVR air to air missiles
-- AIM-120C7 and GOKDOGAN air to air missiles
-- AKDOGAN long range air to air missile .... similar to METEOR

-- 500 km SOM air launched Cruise Missile with indigenous KTJ-3200 turbojet engine

and other missiles/glide bombs like HARM , AKBABA , SLAM-ER , MRASHM , KUZGUN , JSOW , KGK-LR ,etc



also Turkey focused on developing the TFX air superiority Fighter Jet by 2025 for first flight
 
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Turkey’s Air Force Is Obsolete, Warns New Study

Michael Peck
May 4, 2021,
08:00am EDT

Turkey’s air force is becoming obsolete, according to a new Turkish study.

“Turkey and the Turkish Air Force’s air warfare capabilities face a serious test over the next 10 to 20 years,” writes Can Kasapoglu, director of the security and defense program at Turkish think tank EDAM, who authored the report.

Kasapoglu describes the weakness of Turkish airpower as a “techno-generation problem.” The Turkish Air Force’s fourth-generation F-16s and third-generation F-4s – which are essentially Cold War aircraft – are reaching the end of their lifespans. Turkish plans to replace them with 100 fifth-generation F-35A stealth fighters have collapsed after Turkey was kicked out of the F-35 program amid U.S. anger over Turkey’s purchase of Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles. Meanwhile, Turkey’s rivals – including Greece and Israel – are receiving F-35s, or generation 4.5 fighters like France’s Rafale.

“If an intermediate solution is not found, Turkish air power will fall behind world trends,” Kasapoglu warns.

The report suggests that giving up the F-35 in favor of S-400 missiles was a bad bargain. “Turkey’s defense planning and national security requirements, are not suitable for a SAM-intensive force structure. The S-400 strategic SAM system, which has just entered the inventory of the Turkish Armed Forces, will not perform at the desired level due to the shortcomings in the network-centered architecture.”

Nor are armed drones a substitute for the F-35. Turkey has garnered a reputation as a drone power after Turkey-made TB2 and Israeli-made Harop drones decimated Armenian troops and armored vehicles during the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War. But EDAM rejects the idea that drones can substitute for advanced manned aircraft. “Although there is a potential for change within the scope of artificial intelligence and algorithmic warfare, air warfare parameters are still shaped around manned platforms.”

That leaves the TF-X project to develop a homegrown fifth-generation stealth fighter by 2029. But problems finding a suitable engine from overseas manufacturers “may extend the time needed to enter the inventory,” noted EDAM.

It’s not just Turkey’s air force that will feel the loss of the F-35. The loss jeopardizes the Turkish Navy’s plans for an amphibious assault ship – essentially a light aircraft carrier — equipped with short-takeoff and vertical landing F-35Bs, according to EDAM.

The study also warns of Turkish weakness in air and missiles defense. Turkish forces in northern Syria have been bombed by Syrian and Russian aircraft, while United Arab Emirates jets reportedly struck a Turkish airbase in Libya in 2020 after Turkish forces intervened in the Libyan civil war. “The air defense of the Turkish Armed Forces’ forward-deployed combat elements and cross-border bases is becoming an increasingly serious requirement in the lessons learned from the Libyan and Syrian experience,” says EDAM.

Turkey is also surrounded by nations with ballistic missiles, including Syria, Armenia, Iran and Russia. Even here, losing the F-35 is a problem: the stealth jet and its advanced sensors could play a vital role in missile defense, both as an interceptor and by conducting strikes against missile launchers, the study says.

The report makes clear that Turkey has only one real solution to maintain its airpower. “Turkey should return to its priority as the F-35 program. The mentioned policy advice is of great importance both for the combat capabilities of the Turkish Air Force and for the technological and economic gains and employment capacity of the Turkish defense industry.”

They need to get JF17s B3 to replace theiir aging Phantoms. Mark my word, that will happen, Turkey will be the largest users of JF17 just like Pakistan. more or less 8 squardons of JF17s.
 
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They need to get JF17s B3 to replace theiir aging Phantoms. Mark my word, that will happen, Turkey will be the largest users of JF17 just like Pakistan. more or less 8 squardons of JF17s.
How a short ranged JF17 would raplace twin engine Hi aircraft like F4 ? We are NOT a dire need of fighter jet, we can prevail 10+ years without new fighter. our latest gen f16s are younger than 10 years, we will equip them with AESA, so Rafael or typhoon will not bring much to the TurAF. it is impossible to choose Russian or Chineese garbages. we have much more problems with them than the yanks, after Erdogan Turkish policy will not stay the same, so sanctions will loose.

our answer is this
1620656901762.png
 
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That's being too optimistic. Just like the Indians claiming they will have their AMCA fifth generation fighter ready by that time frame as well. I don't believe that, and the Indians even have better experience, since at least they have barely managed to designed and built a semi 4th generation fighter jet(and that again with lots of western/Israeli help/input) and that's after several decades of painful work and trials.
If building airframes/parts and assembly of fighter jets was the barometer to build a credible fighter jet, then several countries around the world will be doing that long ago today. lol It seems to me that some of you guys underestimate the difficulties/complexity of building such an advanced complex fighter, it is not a child's play, especially for a new entrant/country who has no prior experience doing so before, that's without even counting the cost(why you think we are brought in Italy/Sweden and are open to more countries joining our tempest program?). The hell even an advanced experienced industrial power like Russia has been struggling with the development of it's SU-57 fifth generation fighter.
Indians have the capability to build an entire Su30 aircraft due to complete technology absorption. India has also built a 4th gen LCA plane. There are imported components in LCA but except engine none others are related to the flight system. Every item needed to fly has been made in India except engine. India mainly imports only 2 components engine and radar. Radar import is temporary as India has already finalised its own AESA radar. So, the idea that India can complete a 5th generation plane by 2030 is not impractical. There will be room for improvements but the baseline version is completely within reach. The technology already mastered in LCA and Su30 will be upgraded for the 5th gen fighter which takes much much less time than developing from scratch

Of course, when a country can't even manufacture 3rd generation plane, the development of a 5th generation plane can't be done in anything less than 30 years. Some of the things which will take the highest time are:
- Engine development, especially the FADEC codes and single crystal blades
- FBW codes
- fire controls and LRUs critical for calculating the flight path (INS) and jamproof communications (SDR)

If no country agrees to sell engines to Turkey for its developmental trials, then Turkey will not be able to develop any technology before developing its engine and further extend the timelines
 
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They need to get JF17s B3 to replace theiir aging Phantoms.

after Erdogan Turkish policy will not stay the same, so sanctions will loose.


ERDOGAN will rule Turkey until june 2028


and there are many problems with The US in Iraq,Syria and in the Eastern Mediterranean .. forget about F35


TFX will be ready by 2029 including turbofan engine

Another milestone in the Turkish Air Force’s future capabilities to match with F-15 , Rafale , Eurofighter , SU-35 , etc in the region

Roll out : 2023
First flight : 2025
Enter service : 2029

Length: 21 m
Wingspan: 14 m
Height: 6 m
Wing area: 60 m2
Max takeoff weight: 27,215 kg (60,000 lb)
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
Combat range: 1,100 km
Service ceiling: 17,000 m (55,000 ft)

IRFS (AESA Radar, Electronic Warfare )
Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
Infrared Search and Track (IRST)
Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)
Advanced Cockpit / Human Machine Interface
1620657666830.png





also until 2025 Turkish Airforce will have air superiority unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS armed with AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles similar to METEOR + AESA Radar + data link for BVR combat
1620657796690.png




Rafale and SU-35 will not change anything against Turkish Airforce when MIUS unmanned Fighter Jet enter service in 2025
 
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Please check following links:



1. Su-57 is under development and will be technologically mature in late 2020s.
2. India ditched Su-57 project for AMCA project.
3. Russia have offered Su-57 to Turkey as well but the latter have its own TF-X project.

Su-57 have RCS in the (0.1 - 1 m^2) range as per its known patents which is insufficient in view of American VLO-compliant jet fighters, and Israel Air Force (IAF) have operational squadrons of combat-tested F-35i in the present. Some of the shortcomings of Su-57 are highlighted in here.
Su57 sacrificed stealth for maneuverability. Yes, it has lower stealth but has very high maneuverability. We can't immediately judge whether it is a disadvantage or not. With modern radars, stealth of F35 may not last long and hence at the end, maneuverability may trump VLO concept.

Also, it is not a confirmed news that Russia is offering Su57 to Turkey. It may as well never happen
 
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How a short ranged JF17 would raplace twin engine Hi aircraft like F4 ? We are NOT a dire need of fighter jet, we can prevail 10+ years without new fighter. our latest gen f16s are younger than 10 years, we will equip them with AESA, so Rafael or typhoon will not bring much to the TurAF. it is impossible to choose Russian or Chineese garbages. we have much more problems with them than the yanks, after Erdogan Turkish policy will not stay the same, so sanctions will loose.

our answer is this
View attachment 742383



Yes JF-17 Block 3 is a total non-starter for Turkey.


However I think you underestimate the problems that Greek Rafales and F-35s will be for the TAF this decade.

Although Turkey is improving quickly, the French AESA radar and avionics on the Rafale are going to be better than what Turkey can put into its F-16s and the Meteor will be in a class of its own. F-35 will be another step-up.

Turkey will have to rely on greater numbers and assymetrical warfare(cruise missiles/MLRS) in order to stay relevant with Greek airpower as this decade progresses.
 
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If no country agrees to sell engines to Turkey for its developmental trials, then Turkey will not be able to develop any technology before developing its engine and further extend the timelines

1620658783046.png


We tried getting the help of an British company RR for turbofan Engine
but that avenue fell through. So the Turks took the entire program in-house by 2018

wait for 2029

according to general manager of the TR-MOTOR turbofan Engine to be ignited for the first time by 2026 and by 2029 TFX will flight with indigenous turbofan engine
 
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How a short ranged JF17 would raplace twin engine Hi aircraft like F4 ? We are NOT a dire need of fighter jet, we can prevail 10+ years without new fighter. our latest gen f16s are younger than 10 years, we will equip them with AESA, so Rafael or typhoon will not bring much to the TurAF. it is impossible to choose Russian or Chineese garbages. we have much more problems with them than the yanks, after Erdogan Turkish policy will not stay the same, so sanctions will loose.

our answer is this
View attachment 742383


Range of both Phantom and JF17 is the same. where are u living ? This is the best figther to replace your Phantoms. do some research.

Specifications (F-4E)


General characteristics

  • Crew: 2
  • Length: 63 ft 0 in (19.2 m)
  • Wingspan: 38 ft 5 in (11.7 m)
  • Height: 16 ft 5 in (5 m)
  • Wing area: 530 sq ft (49.2 m2)
  • Aspect ratio: 2.77
  • Airfoil: NACA 0006.4–64 root, NACA 0003-64 tip
  • Empty weight: 30,328 lb (13,757 kg)
  • Gross weight: 41,500 lb (18,824 kg)
  • Max takeoff weight: 61,795 lb (28,030 kg)
  • Maximum landing weight: 36,831 lb (16,706 kg)
  • Fuel capacity: 1,994 US gal (1,660 imp gal; 7,550 l) internal, 3,335 US gal (2,777 imp gal; 12,620 l) with 2x 370 US gal (310 imp gal; 1,400 l) external tanks on the outer wing hardpoints and either a 600 or 610 US gal (500 or 510 imp gal; 2,300 or 2,300 l) tank for the center-line station.
  • Powerplant: 2 × General Electric J79-GE-17A after-burning turbojet engines, 11,905 lbf (52.96 kN) thrust each dry, 17,845 lbf (79.38 kN) with afterburner

Performance


  • Maximum speed: 1,280 kn (1,470 mph, 2,370 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,000 m)
  • Maximum speed: Mach 2.23
  • Cruise speed: 510 kn (580 mph, 940 km/h)
  • Combat range: 370 nmi (420 mi, 680 km)
  • Ferry range: 1,457 nmi (1,677 mi, 2,699 km)
  • Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,000 m)
  • Rate of climb: 41,300 ft/min (210 m/s)
  • Lift-to-drag: 8.58
  • Wing loading: 78 lb/sq ft (380 kg/m2)
  • Thrust/weight: 0.86 at loaded weight, 0.58 at MTOW
  • Takeoff roll: 4,490 ft (1,370 m) at 53,814 lb (24,410 kg)
  • Landing roll: 3,680 ft (1,120 m) at 36,831 lb (16,706 kg)




Specifications (JF-17 Block 2)


General characteristics

  • Crew: 1 (single-seat JF-17A) or 2 (dual-seat JF-17B)
  • Length: 14.93 m (49 ft 0 in)
  • Wingspan: 9.44 m (31 ft 0 in)
  • Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
  • Wing area: 24.43 m2 (263.0 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 6,586 kg (14,520 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (29,762 lb) [235]
  • Fuel capacity: 2,330 kg (5,137 lb) internal fuel; 1 x 800 kg (1,764 lb) centre-line drop tank; 2 x 800 kg (1,764 lb) or 1,100 kg (2,425 lb) under-wing drop tanks
  • Powerplant: 1 × Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofan with DEEC, 49.4 kN (11,100 lbf) thrust [236] dry, 84.4 kN (19,000 lbf) with afterburner

Performance


  • Maximum speed: 1,910 km/h (1,190 mph, 1,030 kn)
  • Maximum speed: Mach 1.6[237]
  • Cruise speed: 1,359 km/h (844 mph, 734 kn)
  • Stall speed: 150 km/h (93 mph, 81 kn)
  • Range: 2,500 km (1,600 mi, 1,300 nmi)
  • Combat range: 1,352 km (840 mi, 730 nmi)
  • Ferry range: 3,500 km (2,200 mi, 1,900 nmi) with 3 external drop tanks
  • Service ceiling: 16,920[238] m (55,510 ft)
  • g limits: +8/-3 (limited by flight control system)
  • Rate of climb: 300 m/s (59,000 ft/min)
  • Thrust/weight: 0.95 with RD-93 (with 50% internal fuel and 2 x SRAAMs), 1.10 with WS-13 engine[239]
 
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Although Turkey is improving quickly, the French AESA radar and avionics on the Rafale are going to be better than what Turkey can put into its F-16s and the Meteor will be in a class of its own.


Aselsan GaN based AESA Radar will be as capable as the APG-83 AESA radar

and Turkey has developed GOKDOGAN and BOZDOGAN air to air missiles
ramjet powered AKDOGAN air to air missile will be similar to METEOR

even by 2025 Turkish Airforce will have air superiority unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS armed with AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles similar to METEOR + AESA Radar + data link for BVR combat

Rafale and SU-35 will not change anything against Turkish Airforce when MIUS unmanned Fighter Jet enter service in 2025
 
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today i ve learned(!) something, JF17 has greater range than F4!, SO WHY YOU NEEED extra f16? go with jf.
 
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today i ve learned(!) something, JF17 has greater range than F4!, SO WHY YOU NEEED extra f16? go with jf.
perfect for replacing Phantoms and a lot more capabilities than Phantom.

JF17 can create havoc in Anti ship roles, and you need it on Aegean Sea flying out of Cigli and Bandirma airforce bases.
 
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ERDOGAN will rule Turkey until june 2028


and there are many problems with The US in Iraq,Syria and in the Eastern Mediterranean .. forget about F35


TFX will be ready by 2029 including turbofan engine

Another milestone in the Turkish Air Force’s future capabilities to match with F-15 , Rafale , Eurofighter , SU-35 , etc in the region

Roll out : 2023
First flight : 2025
Enter service : 2029

Length: 21 m
Wingspan: 14 m
Height: 6 m
Wing area: 60 m2
Max takeoff weight: 27,215 kg (60,000 lb)
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
Combat range: 1,100 km
Service ceiling: 17,000 m (55,000 ft)

IRFS (AESA Radar, Electronic Warfare )
Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
Infrared Search and Track (IRST)
Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)
Advanced Cockpit / Human Machine Interface
View attachment 742387




also until 2025 Turkish Airforce will have air superiority unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS armed with AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles similar to METEOR + AESA Radar + data link for BVR combat
View attachment 742388



Rafale and SU-35 will not change anything against Turkish Airforce when MIUS unmanned Fighter Jet enter service in 2025
Turkey must get JF17. If you go through the details you will understand it. Block 3 is very good aircraft and it is must to have for Turkey. They can keep working on all the projects but they need time for all that. JF17 brings in new technologies and Specially tactics from PAF, which will be imparted in TuAF like blood if they go for JF17, and it won't be possible without the JF17.
Exercises can be give a brief look but TuAF needs to have permanent presence of PAF with full fledge Teams to impart the knowledge and skills they have. Turkey can also improve and update the Aircrafts later own when they develop their Avionics. There is no other Airforce which have the skill set of PAF in the whole Muslim world and TuAF needs to absorb all of it.

Jazāk Allāhu Khayran 😊
 
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