Turkey’s Air Force Is Obsolete, Warns New Study

[Smarana Mitra]

also until 2025 Turkish Airforce will have air superiority unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS armed with AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles similar to METEOR + AESA Radar + data link

What are you saying? Turkey does not have basic BVR missile with radar guidance and yet you claim that some random UAV will have BVRAAM? Do you know that no UAV has any long range AAM because they can't carry such powerful radars to detect long range targets? Also, UAVs don't even have short range AAMs because UAVs can't maneuver well and hence any short range encounter will get UAV destroyed before it can fire

View attachment 742398

We tried getting the help of an British company RR for turbofan Engine
but that avenue fell through. So the Turks took the entire program in-house by 2018

wait for 2029

according to general manager of the TR-MOTOR turbofan Engine to be ignited for the first time by 2026 and by 2029 TFX will flight with indigenous turbofan engine

Unless Turkey has superhumans or some kind of prophetic guidance giving technology, it is impossible to make anything even by 2035. Making a turbofan engine is not simply assembling a bunch of fans and rotors. Otherwise, even local mechanic shops who can make table fans would be making jet engines.

It is not that other countries are retarded and Turkey is some kind of genius like Tony Stark and can make anything quickly. USA took 12 years to make F119 engines for F22 despite it being of same generation as F414 that USA had developed earlier. Even countries like Russia took 15 years to develop AL41F engines for Su35/Su57. China has been struggling for 25 years since 1980s to make engines and finally made engines only in 2010. India struggled for 20+ years before it could make Kaveri engine and indigenise Russian Al31F engines for Su30. Turkey started its engine program in 2018 and tried to get UK's help. It fell through and in 2019 started program for indigenous engine. Turkey has no knowledge of the metallurgy and has no knowledge of the FADEC codes needed for an engine. It will take 20 years to just learn these and then another 10 years to design an engine.

About making TFX, the most important component of 4th and higher generation fighters is semiconductor manufacturing. Turkey can't make even basic semiconductors. The only Chip fabrication equipment Turkey has is the 700nm lithography machine gifted by USA for research purposes. Turkey can't make any meaningful semiconductor on its own and hence there is no way it can make any meaningful sensor, mission computers, radars etc indigenously. Turkish radars are all assembly products with imported mission computers. Anyone can make devices that emit or receive radio waves but the real difficulty is in reading the reflected waves. This requires semiconductor computation.

 

[MMM-E]

Seriously dude, you are comparing KUZGUN with antiship. 25-60kg of Kuzgun warhead for light and armored vehicles to antiship missile on JF17 with 200kgs of warheard... i can only laugh at how childish your post is.

Or I can only laugh at how childish your post is.

even 25-60kg of KUZGUN warhead will be enough to destroy Radar Systems on Frigates/Destroyers
and GAME OVER !

even 10 AKINCI UCAVs can carry 80 KUZGUN joint strike munitions for swarm attack on Frigates
No any chance to survive for enemy Warships

80 KUZGUN joint strike munitions = $8 million
FREMM Frigate : $500 million

Have you seen anti ship package of JF17, and how can you compare a HURJET with JF17, its like apples and oranges.. Land fixed based systems are restricted in nature, its for defensive purpose for landing forces. Turkey needs to think beyond being a defensive force

• Anti-ship missiles:
  • C-601 — (Anti-ship missile)
  • C-705KD — (Anti-ship missile)
  • CM-802AKG — (Anti-ship cruise missile

I am not compare HURJET with JF17 or anyone

even Turkish HURJET can carry also Turkish Anti-ship cruise missiles

150 km MRASHM Anti-ship cruise missile
280 km SOM-C Anti-ship cruise missile
also 150 km RAMJET powered supersonic Anti-ship cruise missile


Turkish Airforce has 230+ F-16s
We need twin engine air superiorty Fighter such as TFX

 

[MMM-E]

What are you saying? Turkey does not have basic BVR missile with radar guidance and yet you claim that some random UAV will have BVRAAM?

if you know nothing about Turkish defense industry .... its your problem
educate yourself and then come to discuss


Turkey has developed GOKDOGAN and BOZDOGAN air to air Missiles

BOZDOGAN WVR air to air Missile ( a high resolution dual colour imaging infra-red seeker, with a comprehensive off-boresight capability, along with advanced counter-measures )

• High resolution IIR Seeker providing outstanding off-boresight capability
• Advanced counter-countermeasure capabilities
• All-aspect engagement capability
• Superior agility with thrust vectoring
• Unique warhead design for maximum probability-of-kill

soon also Data-Link and lock-on after launch

Weight : 140 kg
Length : 3,3 m
Diameter : 160 mm
Speed : Mach 4+
Range : 25 km

65 km GOKDOGAN BVR air to air Missile ( solid-state RF seeker, with advanced counter-measure capability and datalink update )

AKDOGAN RamJet powered long range air to air Missile under development .... similar to METEOR missile

Do you know that no UAV has any long range AAM because they can't carry such powerful radars to detect long range targets? Also, UAVs don't even have short range AAMs because UAVs can't maneuver well and hence any short range encounter will get UAV destroyed before it can fire

MIUS UCAV will carry GOKDOGAN or AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles for intercaptor role

if you have good Radars , network centric warfare and cooperative engagement capabilities

its like air based Air Defense System ... to intercept even low RCS targets


Turkey has developed 600+ km EIRS early warning AESA Radar to detect even low RCS targets from very long ranges

KS-172 Missile
length : 6 m
weight : 748 kg
diameter : 40 cm

KS-172 missile will flight at high altitude to engage on Boeing E7-T AEWC
and many Radar Systems will watch on the Eastern Mediterranean

-- Boeing E7-T AEWC's 600km PESA Radar in the sky
-- 600 km EIRS early warning AESA Radar on the ground
-- 450 km CAFRAD naval AESA Radar on TF-2000 class Destroyers

Long range Radars will detect KS-172 missile and to share it via data link
MIUS UCAVs which will escot Boeing E7-T AEWC will fire GOKDOGAN networked air to air missile to intercept upcoming air to air missile or anti-radiation missile or land attack Cruise Missiile



its great Turkish technology and in 2025 everybody will this technology in the sky

 

[White Lion]

How a short ranged JF17 would raplace twin engine Hi aircraft like F4 ? We are NOT a dire need of fighter jet, we can prevail 10+ years without new fighter. our latest gen f16s are younger than 10 years, we will equip them with AESA, so Rafael or typhoon will not bring much to the TurAF. it is impossible to choose Russian or Chineese garbages. we have much more problems with them than the yanks, after Erdogan Turkish policy will not stay the same, so sanctions will loose.

our answer is this
View attachment 742383

Turkish F4's are modernized by Israel and can be used for another 10 to 15 years in the role of ground attack but they still need to be supplemented by electronic counter measure specialized aircraft and upgraded F-16's. Still this would not bring the F-4's or F-16's to the standards of stealth F-35's yet could well perform equally in this kind of netcentric warfare.

Turkey also needs to procure more electronic counter measure aircraft or develop some dedicated F-4 /F-16's. Unfortunately no such program has yet been made public so it can not be confirmed if Turkey is working on this or not.

Turkey knows that Greece being a NATO member would not start a war this gives them time to develop TFX. Syria and PKK can be overpowered by drones and fighter aircraft so they posses no eminent threat.

JF-17 can only be acquired if a dedicated EW aircraft if developed. Not to mention it would require a new Data link solutions as JF-16 can not be linked with DATA Link-16. This is the reason it would never be selected.

250 km ATMACA land based anti-ship missile can hit every enemy Warships in the Aegean Sea

even by 2025 , HURJET can carry 4x MRASHM anti-ship missiles or 8x 250km KUZGUN joint strike munitions for swarm attack on Frigates
View attachment 742483


even 10 AKINCI UCAVs can carry 80 KUZGUN joint strike munitions for swarm attack on Frigates

Turkey needs twin engine air superiorty Fighter such as TFX
View attachment 742484

Hurjet being a Light Fighter trainer could perhaps be upgraded to similar configuration of JF-17 then it would be a force multiplier. Possibilities of this are dependent on the Engine that is finally chosen.

 

[Baybars Han]

We shall develop our own and we will, I have no question about it. There is a solid roadmap

Hurkus, Hurjet, TFX

Korea didn't have any experience in building from scratch yet they did. You got to start from somewhere. Engine will be foreign initially but a local one will be developed to be in block 2-3 TFX. Remmeber initally TFX will be a 4.5 gen fighter and with newer blocks it will get upgraded

 

[MMM-E]

Turkey has no knowledge of the metallurgy and has no knowledge of the FADEC codes needed for an engine. It will take 20 years to just learn these and then another 10 years to design an engine.

says an Indian ignorant guy



Turkey has everything

and only in 4 years Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 turboshaft gas turbine engine for Helicopters
and TEI sent 5 TS-1400 tturboshaft Engines to TAI for integration/sertificate on T-625 Helicopter

in 2024 TEI TS-1400 turboshaft gas turbine engine will enter service .. in 8 years ( 2017-2024 )

İndigenous engine TEI TS-1400 which produces 1,660 horsepower

The core technology of this Engine will also form the basis for the engine needed for the TF-X 5th-gen Fighter Jet


Turkey was become one of a few Countries in the World that develop Gas Turbine Engines

Turkey is one of 5 Countries in the World that produce turbine blades for gas turbine Engines


in 2026 everybody will see TR-MOTOR turbofan Engine and in 2029 TFX will flight with indigenous turbofan engine

 

[UKBengali]

And France has no AESAs on Horizon class destroyers with same or better range than Turkish Developing/testing ship based AESA but France already deployed AESA on its Horizon class Destroyers Which is actually a cruiser

Unfortunately some Turks are getting a little carried away.

They are catching up very fast with countries like France but will still take some 1-2 decades before they are at parity.

Other problem for Turkey is that the Western countries share some tech with each other and do joint projects, whereas there is no other Muslim country anywhere on the level of Turkey to be able to collaborate and learn from. Saying that Turkey has a ready made market in Muslim countries like Pakistan and BD in order to get economies of scale and recoup some of the development costs.

 

[MMM-E]

Hurjet being a Light Fighter trainer could perhaps be upgraded to similar configuration of JF-17 then it would be a force multiplier. Possibilities of this are dependent on the Engine that is finally chosen.

HÜRJET single-engine , supersonic , new generation Light Combat Aircraft

its maiden flight in December 2022 ..... to start mass production in 2025

Length : 14 m
Height : 4.2 m
Wingspan : 9,8 m
Wing area : 24 m2
Max speed : mach 1.4
Service ceiling : 13.716 m (45,000ft)
Payload capacity : 2.721 kg
Range : 2,222km (1,200nm)
Engine : GE F404-GE-102


The HÜRJET will be able to perform +8G/-3G maneuvers and will be capable of sustaining 5.5Gs at an altitude of 15,000ft and up to mach 0.9 speed

able to perform a Close Air Support (CAS) role

HURJET can carry MRASHM anti ship and land atttack cruise missiles

TEI TJ-300 Engine has been developed for special variant of Roketsan medium range land attack and anti Ship Missile .... (3,2 m and 300 kg , speed of mach 0.9 and range of 100/150 km )

 

[LeGenD]

Su57 sacrificed stealth for maneuverability. Yes, it has lower stealth but has very high maneuverability.

This trade-off is due to Russians being unable to develop a VLO-compliant airframe for a jet fighter which can withstand significant stresses of maneuverability.

Americans managed to develop true VLO-compliant airframes for jet fighters which can withstand significant stresses of maneuverability on the other hand.

LINK: https://www.slideshare.net/robbinla...ing-a-21st-century-fighter-from-the-ground-up

Maneuverability is helpful but not a requirement in numerous combat situations. Desired outcome is First Look - First Shot - First kill instead (see below).

We can't immediately judge whether it is a disadvantage or not. With modern radars, stealth of F35 may not last long and hence at the end, maneuverability may trump VLO concept.

Also, it is not a confirmed news that Russia is offering Su57 to Turkey. It may as well never happen

True VLO-compliant airframe including fuselage is designed in such a way that it is able to deflect incoming radar waves in directions away from the airframe (typically lower wavelengths) and/or absorb waves to large extent (typically higher wavelengths).

Source: Japanese FC2 Wiki

Russian and/or Chinese VHF (anti-stealth) radar systems are programmed to detect resonance effects/oscillations in particular.

Source: Aircraft 101

Source: Aircraft 101

While moving from Higher Frequency Bands to Lower Frequency Bands (moving from the Optical regime to the Resonance/Mie regime), specular reflection decreases in its intensity but its Lobe Width increases proportionally. Creeping waves also become more pronounced in the mix. This can lead to interference between specular reflection and creeping waves which is likely to produce resonance effects/oscillations by extension (when this interference is constructive, the RCS is higher; when this interference is destructive the RCS is lower). Therefore, resonance effects can be pronounced in the Resonance/Mie region, and a radar system operating in one of the lower frequency bands can be configured to pick on these effects.

Source: Aircraft 101

Interference between specular reflection and creeping waves can be observed in certain spots of a particular airframe in the Resonance/Mie region in Anechoic Chambers.

1. Application of trailing edges on the surface of airframe in such spots can help curb such interference and/or make it destructive:

Source: Aircraft 101

2. Multilayered airframe construction pattern with absorbents in the mix:

LINK: https://slideplayer.com/slide/12976539/

NOTE: Top-coating is most likely Carbon-based RAM application (very effective)

Source: Aircraft 101

"There are ways to combine techniques. Layered magnetic materials can reduce RCS by 10 dB from 2-20 GHz with 0.3 in. of depth. Hybrid RAMs can be created with a front layer of graded dielectric and a back layer of magnetic material to attenuate radar reflections from VHF to Ku-band." - The Aviation Special Report (State of Stealth)

Russian and/or Chinese VHF (anti-stealth) radar systems for reference:

Source: Dr. Carlo Kopp

F-22A Raptor and F-35 variants are very likely to fall below 0.01 RCS mark in this graph.

Outcome is eventually this:

Source: Aircraft 101

- across multiple radar systems in the A2/AD sector. Like this:

LINK: https://www.slideshare.net/robbinla...ing-a-21st-century-fighter-from-the-ground-up

True VLO-compliant jet fighter can slip through much reduced A2/AD rings (byproduct of its effects), or the pilot of an F-35 variant might choose to DESTROY A2/AD arrangements from substantial distances with relevant standoff munitions.

Keep in mind following military operation of IAF in Syria in 2019 in which big-ticket items such as Chinese-origin YJ-27 radar system and Russian-origin SA-22 system were knocked-out in pursuit of other targets nearby:

Satellite images show damage caused by Israeli strike on Damascus Airport

***

www.haaretz.com

Capabilities of SA-22 system for reference:

Electronic Warfare (EW) capabilities of the F-35 variants is another aspect that I have not expanded upon in this response. In case you are wondering, F-35 variants have substantial EW capabilities (top-of-the-line). These capabilities will have significant effects of their own.

 

[BRAVO_]

in my opinion ....

1: Turkey has the technical skills needed to manufacture a Western fighter in-country. Turkish Aerospace Industries, with help from local subcontractors, manufactured 308 F-16s under license from Lockheed Martin, while other Turkish companies benefited from systems contracts.
2: If they proceed actively with TFX Project it would help compensate Turkey’s aerospace industry for the loss of those F-35 contracts.
3: pursuing an indigenous solution would not mean ending industrial and technological relations with the U.S. and European defense establishments. As Biden has a different approach toward turkey than trump
4: in my opinion Turkey will not buy fighter jets from Russia and the reason is Turkey traditionally western and European technologies, how Russians fighters will be integrated with those? and incase later if Turkey tilt toward NATO Russian fighters couldn’t be integrated into NATO's air defense network, and it would not be able to share data with the rest of Turkey’s military aircraft fleet. Going down this path would certainly mean a deeper rift with, and perhaps exit from, NATO.

keeping in mind the above there are great chances turkey may join countries like Pakistan Azerbaijan Qatar to speed up the development of its next generation fighter using its own as well as European contractors and systems.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

-- 400 km Thales SMART-L ( Horizon class Destroyer of the French Navy ) .... FRANCE
-- 450 km Aselsan CAFRAD ( TF-2000 class Destroyer of the Turkish Navy ) ... TURKEY

Turkey has also GaN based AESA Radar technology for land,naval and airborne

even French THALES which is one of the world’s leading defence companies to use the transmitter/receiver (T/R Modules) from Turkish ASELSAN for Radars


btw French Horizon class Destroyer which is actually a Frigate ( 48x SAMs , 8x Ashm and 6x Torpedos ) nothing else

Turkish TF-2000 class Destroyer will be superior ( 144x SAMs , 16x LACMs , 16x Ashm and 6x Torpedos )

First you will complete complete TF-2000 project than talk ànd 50 km difference is worth nothing they were developing horizon class sice late 80s, that's why it haven't GAN based AESAs ànd tell me what AESAs TURKEY developed in 90s
Its actually a destroyer but French called it Frigate

 

[MMM-E]

First you will complete complete TF-2000 project than talk ànd 50 km difference is worth nothing they were developing horizon class sice late 80s, that's why it haven't GAN based AESAs ànd tell me what AESAs TURKEY developed in 90s
Its actually a destroyer but French called it Frigate

We dont care about France or anyone

I tried to say that if France has AESA Radar technoloogy , Turkey has also AESA Radar technology

even Turkey has started developing major military projects after 2004
and only in 16 years Turkey was become a player in global arms industry

7 Turkish defense companies entered into top 100 list in the world and Turkey is only muslim country on the list ....
BAYKAR who develops UCAVs will be 8th Turkish defense company on the list

until 2030 hundreds of Turkish military projects will be developed to become a global player as like France and The UK


What do you expect when even those who should know spread misinformation about Turkey's efforts and capabilities

as a Turk I am ashamed of that



Turkey has developed MILGEM national Warship
ISTIF class stealth Frigate is under construction
and for Turkey to buid TF-2000 class Destroyer as like to build a toy ..... but we are waiting for indigenous systems to use on TF-2000 class Destroyers

Turkey will be 3rd NATO State to use its own systems on own designed TF-2000 class Destroyer after USA and France

-- GENESIS Combat Management System
-- 450 km CAFRAD Multi-function/illumination/Fire control/Long range Radar complex
-- MDAS VLS
-- EW Suite
-- HISAR-O and HISAR-U surface to air Missiles
-- KORKUT-D 35mm CIWS
-- 250 km ATMACA network enabled anti ship Missile
-- GEZGIN Land attack cruise Missile
-- SAPAN Rolling Airframe Missile
-- TUBITAK high energy LASER
-- ORKA Leightweight Torpedo
-- TORK Hard-Kill Torpedo Countermeasure System
-- HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System
-- HIZIR-LFAS Low Frequency Towed Active Sonar

even engines for Naval platforms

btw even ISTIF class Frigate will have superior fire power to French HORIZON class Frigate

(64x SAMs , 16x Ashm and 6x Torpedos )

 

[White and Green with M/S]

We dont care about France or anyone

I tried to say that if France has AESA Radar technoloogy , Turkey has also AESA Radar technology

even Turkey has started developing major military projects after 2004
and only in 16 years Turkey was become a player in global arms industry

7 Turkish defense companies entered into top 100 list in the world and Turkey is only muslim country on the list .... BAYKAR will be 8th Turkish defense company on the list

until 2030 hundreds of Turkish military projects will be developed to become a global player as like France and The UK


What do you expect when even those who should know spread misinformation about Turkey's efforts and capabilities

as a Turk I am ashamed of that



Turkey has developed MILGEM national Warship
ISTIF class stealth Frigate is under construction
and for Turkey to buid TF-2000 class Destroyer as like to build a toy ..... but we are waiting for indigenous systems to use on TF-2000 class Destroyers

Turkey will be 3rd NATO State to use its own systems on own designed TF-2000 class Destroyer after USA and France

-- GENESIS Combat Management System
-- 450 km CAFRAD Multi-function/illumination/Fire control/Long range Radar complex
-- MDAS VLS
-- EW Suite
-- HISAR-O and HISAR-U surface to air Missiles
-- KORKUT-D 35mm CIWS
-- 250 km ATMACA network enabled anti ship Missile
-- GEZGIN Land attack cruise Missile
-- SAPAN Rolling Airframe Missile
-- TUBITAK high energy LASER
-- ORKA Leightweight Torpedo
-- TORK Hard-Kill Torpedo Countermeasure System
-- HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System
-- HIZIR-LFAS Low Frequency Towed Active Sonar

even engines for Naval platforms

View attachment 742537

They're giving/ helping you a the techs to built these projects that's all I wanna say to you

 

[MMM-E]

They're giving/ helping you a the techs to built these projects that's all I wanna say to you

Turks have started creating national defense industry after arms embargo on Turkey by The US in 1975
and Nobody gives critical technologies to another Country


The US ? The US even doesnt give a pistol to Turkey

France ? which one ?

France blocked deal of Turkey with EUROSAM to develop Air Defense System

Turkey develops itself and NATO Countries use arms embargo on Turkey

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Turkey's air force is going the way of Iran's air force. Sure, prop drones are good. But they are not substitute for high powered manned combat jets. Whereas Iran has F-14, Turkey has F-16.