Turkey shows interest in JF-17 Thunder

[Dazzler]

I respect your analysis/input but for a A/G Role like what terminator is assigned to the current JFT is not better(If you would like to get into details about the two we can). The other issue is Turkey is not on a small budget. We have already set up the means to replace our older aircraft. If the JFT can't match our F-16 CCIP aircraft (Remember they are block 50+/advanced aircraft with AIM-9X integration) and F-35s then what else would be the need for it ? Remember the EFT deal is also floating out there and many sources suggest the EFT after the initial F-35 order in complete. Maybe even earlier.

My friend, just like Turkish F-4 Terminator is assigned ground missions, JFT is replacing the ground attack capable A-5s so this seem pretty similar with one difference as Turks are going for an upgraded fighter, we are going with a newly designed one. My point is not to get involved in an argument and i fully respect your opinion. Turkey has its own requirements and have a planned path for future aircraft induction but interest in JFT has surprised many. Maybe it will remain at that or whatever happens. I am just a bit curious thats all

 

[Jigs]

My friend, just like Turkish F-4 Terminator is assigned ground missions, JFT is replacing the ground attack capable A-5s so this seem pretty similar with one difference as Turks are going for an upgraded fighter, we are going with a newly designed one. My point is not to get involved in an argument and i fully respect your opinion. Turkey has its own requirements and have a planned path for future aircraft induction but interest in JFT has surprised many. Maybe it will remain at that or whatever happens. I am just a bit curious thats all

A fully open platform is interesting it would give turkey options for many upgrades. Who knows maybe we would need even more fighters after these inductions. JF-17 being on the table is still good for Turkey. Oh and also South Korea is looking to turkey as a financial supplier for their new 4.5 generation fighter. Many options on the table currently. I do hope pakistan cooperates with turkey on many aviation matters besides the MLUs.

 

[Quwa]

Faisal,

I am aware of joint collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey but I just answered queries made in terms of JFT's capabilities. People seem to be in a frame of mind that it is still inferior to most options because its price tag is 15-20 mil.

I agree with you in that regard. I believe the PAF fully affirmed its trust and praise in JF-17's current capabilities at Farnborough Air Show.

 

[manojb]

^^^ will salesman ever say his product is bad and not trustwortthy!!???

 

[Quwa]

^^^ will salesman ever say his product is bad and not trustwortthy!!???

It is one thing to say "JF-17 is a good fighter that fully meets our requirements and those of other developing states" and saying "we are very impressed with JF-17 and consider it in many aspects better than the F-16s we operate." In both cases one gets a positive light of JF-17, but in the latter, we see an affirmation of truly liking the product.

 

[Nishan_101]

So whats the possible no. of aircraft for BAF 50-80, Sirilankan if they are not interested in L-15 then 40, Maymaar ???

And for IRIAF 50, Egypt 70-80, Libya ???, Algeria ???, Azerbijan 30?, Syria ???, Yemen???, Oman??? (these are the 3 countries that might be interested in it to reduce the operational as well as overall futture cost with the given capability)

 

[Quwa]

If a deal is finalized with Egypt, then I'd expect 100+ planes.

Can't say about Algeria and Iran, they're a hit/miss in their own ways. For example, Algeria has other options, it would depend whether they're looking for a lightweight single engine fighter beyond MiG-29 and Su-30 - can't say. As for Iran, their political run-ins with everyone - including Pakistan - might cause problems for both China and Pakistan. However, should either acquire JF-17, then I'd expect 50+ from each side.

Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are also unknowns IMO...it would depend on how Pakistani foreign policy views them in context of their relative proximities to India.

The key IMO would be to market to two distinct but fairly common crowds:

First is those countries who operate only old generation fighters such as MiG-21/F-7, Mirages, Jaguars, F-5 Tiger IIs, etc. These forces will be looking for either a very low cost variant of JF-17 with modern capabilities (basic A2A, A2G, etc) OR the kind PAF is aiming (with HMD/S, IRST, precision-strike, etc) OR both. They'll be looking to group their forces around a single low cost type, and my guess is that we're looking at mostly African states in this regard.

The second crowd is similar to PAF, those with higher performance fighters such as F-16, MiG-29, Su-27, Mirage 2000, etc, AND old MiG-21/F-7, Mirages, F-5 Tiger IIs. These states are the most common, and some of them may be looking to continue their Hi/Lo mix by replacing their old types with a lower-cost supplement. Performance requirements will vary, but most likely we can expect them to spec up to the level of PAF JF-17s - but differ in specific systems, i.e. some may go Western. Countries like this include Algeria, Morocco, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt, Iran, Sudan, Venezuela, Azerbaijan, etc.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Growler,

I try to base my comments on facts instead of nationalism so please do not make assumptions in this regard. Read the specs of f-16 blk 40 and then that of JFT and tell me a single area where JFT lacks behind the former except range and thrust??

F-16 block 40 specs...

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article7.html

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....

It all started when his excellency Turkish premier gained interest in JFT....

Speed, thrust, range, are all general spec. If it comes to that then almost all russian aircrafts are supirior to western counter parts?
That's not the point here.
West including turkey have quality technology.
Hoverever by no means jft is a crp ac but I believe its mig-21 of 21st century. I would love to talk more on this but it sucks typing from a cell phone.

 

[Sapper]

Speed, thrust, range, are all general spec. If it comes to that then almost all russian aircrafts are supirior to western counter parts?
That's not the point here.
West including turkey have quality technology.
Hoverever by no means jft is a crp ac but I believe its mig-21 of 21st century. I would love to talk more on this but it sucks typing from a cell phone.

I love this new designation, Mig21 of 21st century.

Mig21 is the one of the largest produced and exported jet fighter flying today. More than two dozen nations still operate it, including Pakistan, India, China and lots and lots of Asian, Middle eastern and African countries.

If China/Pakistan focused their efforts only to replace every single Mig21/F7 unit with JF17, it will generate an order in thousands and thousands of units. And if we count in the vacuum being created by retiring Mirage3/5s, A4s, F5s and the likes, it will probably make more matters beyond wildest dreams.

To come to think of, I cannot think of a single 4rth Gen fighter under 30~35 Million USD pricing and except for a few Russian versions, all rest cost comfortable above 60 million dollar. Most of the nations who opted for Mig21s were originally the ones who didn't have money to begin with, so they looked for the simplest, cheapest and most effective bang for their buck, both in quality and in quantity, and that's where we need to target the marketing.

Amongst the numerous 100 million dollar bunch, this is THE only solution in the market with 4rth gen technology with 15~20 million in price.

Our punch lines should be

1. Quantity
2. Quality
3. Reliability
4. Simplicity
5. No strings attached

If there was a comparable fighter in its price range, it should have made its way to FIA by now, shouldn't it.

No wonder why Russians are worried, Mig21s was the market THEY created. Now we are going to take it from them.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Tameem]

I am least excited on the news that Turkey shown interest in JFT and want Pakistan in to JV on defense production. Most of the comments in last 9 pages are totally oblivious of the fact that this offer has some geo-political meanings in it as well, as both China as well as Turkey needs Pakistan’s cooperation for different reasons opposites to each other.

No doubt, both China and Turkey are true friends of Pakistan but not to each other and this is a fact as both plays for influence on the same turf (West Asia/Asia Minor/Central Asia) both regards it their backyard.

On the recent Uyghur unrest both are on each other throats actually as China has demanded Recep Tayyip Erdogan to retract his accusation that Beijing practised genocide against ethnic Uighurs.

Therefore, in my opinion Pakistan have to walk on very thin as both these countries want our friendship on the expense of the other in coming years. If we keep history in our mind both these countries are future potential enemies so we have to be very careful in all our dealings and commitments and Pakistan cannot afford to loose any one of them and for me specially China in “near future terms” and Turkey for “far future terms”.

 

[shanixee]

Turkey has been involved in F35 and has been involved in its develpoment hence produced fusalauge of F35....Turkey may be interested in the stealth virsion of JF17 and can help pakistan in building its fualauge.....the 1 and only reason i find is that it can keep its F35 for longer run and use JF17 to train its piolts for stealth...and easy to maintain...

 

[Sapper]

I am least excited on the news that Turkey shown interest in JFT and want Pakistan in to JV on defense production. Most of the comments in last 9 pages are totally oblivious of the fact that this offer has some geo-political meanings in it as well, as both China as well as Turkey needs Pakistan’s cooperation for different reasons opposites to each other.

No doubt, both China and Turkey are true friends of Pakistan but not to each other and this is a fact as both plays for influence on the same turf (West Asia/Asia Minor/Central Asia) both regards it their backyard.

On the recent Uyghur unrest both are on each other throats actually as China has demanded Recep Tayyip Erdogan to retract his accusation that Beijing practised genocide against ethnic Uighurs.

Therefore, in my opinion Pakistan have to walk on very thin as both these countries want our friendship on the expense of the other in coming years. If we keep history in our mind both these countries are future potential enemies so we have to be very careful in all our dealings and commitments and Pakistan cannot afford to loose any one of them and for me specially China in “near future terms” and Turkey for “far future terms”.

You are correct, Turkey will most probably not buy JF17, and even if it tries to, west will not allow it.

One political reason might be that Turkey is an F16 producing nation, and also a technology partner in F35. If it buys JF17, it will mean a lot of presence of Chinese personnel in Turkey and at same airbases in which F35 and F16 are housed, meaning Chinese presence near F35 and related personnel.

This will never be allowed. F16 and more profoundly F35 technology seepage to Chinese engineers, even if it is through human contact will be a disaster for US and Europe, whose sole defense will rely on F35 technology secrecy for decades to come.

But for other "poorer" nations, it might become the only option in a 100 million per plane arena.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Babur Han]

I am least excited on the news that Turkey shown interest in JFT and want Pakistan in to JV on defense production. Most of the comments in last 9 pages are totally oblivious of the fact that this offer has some geo-political meanings in it as well, as both China as well as Turkey needs Pakistan’s cooperation for different reasons opposites to each other.

No doubt, both China and Turkey are true friends of Pakistan but not to each other and this is a fact as both plays for influence on the same turf (West Asia/Asia Minor/Central Asia) both regards it their backyard.

On the recent Uyghur unrest both are on each other throats actually as China has demanded Recep Tayyip Erdogan to retract his accusation that Beijing practised genocide against ethnic Uighurs.

Therefore, in my opinion Pakistan have to walk on very thin as both these countries want our friendship on the expense of the other in coming years. If we keep history in our mind both these countries are future potential enemies so we have to be very careful in all our dealings and commitments and Pakistan cannot afford to loose any one of them and for me specially China in “near future terms” and Turkey for “far future terms”.

Turkish Air Force will not induct JF-17, they allready have F-16C/D in Service. F-16C/D provide a better Thrust to Weight Ratio and higher Weapon Payload. I think Turkey show interest in JF-17 because Azerbaijan have shown it's interest for this Fighter. It's likely possible that Turkey will equipp JF-17 from Azerbaijan with Link-16 Datalink to comunicate with turkish AEW&C Aircraft and integratin of turkish made Mission Computer for the Integration of turkish Avionics and Weapons.


Turkey alone do not pose any Military Threat to China, Turkey can only become a Military Threat for China when it have strong Influence on Central Asian Turkic States. This can become a Problem when Central Asian Turkic Repuplics will order JF-17 with turkish made Avionics and Weapons.

 

[Super Falcon]

hope to see these JF 17 in turkish colours and tell u what turkish F 5 are aeging and they cannot get best possible replacement than JF 17 good for ground targets and double good than their old F 5 in all asspects agility payload spped and etc

 

[somebozo]

The Sino-Turkish releations at large are normalized and both being big countries can expect occasional skirmishes. The Turks have no need of JF17 having a whole F16 production line at their disposal but Turks could be look at joing production to create their own homegrown industry of air weapons and avionics for package sales to central asian countries.Turkey could also offer its vast experience in composites to enhance JF17 and its production experience of avonics and weapon suits. Also it could be China's or Pakistans ploy under staged turkish intrest to get hands on "western avionics" being restricted to both at the moment due to third party political pressure. Turkey on other hand faces no such restriction from west with outright purchase as well ToT. During the sanctions, the turks unoffically routed lot of dual use equipments through trading companies for Pakistan from US and EU.

They will realize that rather than three people fighting for their pie in central asia its better to team up against the big bear.

Have a look here for Sino-Turk releations overview

http://www.chinaembassy.org.tr/eng/ztgx/