Torpedo deal for scorpene scrapped

[dadeechi]

Torpedo deal for scorpene scrapped

The Defence Ministry has scrapped a Rs1,700-crore proposed deal for procuring torpedos from Finmeccanica for Scorpene submarines now under construction at Mazagon Docks Limited(MDL), Mumbai. The deal was put on hold in 2014 by the then UPA Government in the wake of AgustaWestland VVIP helicopter deal controversy. Finmeccanica, the Italian conglomerate is the parent company of AgustaWestland. The Government is likely to float a fresh golbal tender or request for proposal(RFP) to procure torpedos.

Disclosing this here on Tuesday, sources said Black Shark torpedo, manufactured by Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquel(WASS), a subsidiary of Finmeccanica, emerged as the lowest bidder and negotiations began in 2013 for fitting 98 torpedos on to six Scorpene submarines. Incidentally, the first submarine christened INS Kalvari is now undergoing final trials and expected to join service in September.

When asked how the Government proposed to maintain operational preparedness of the submarines in the absence of torpedos, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told a reputed national daily that “I will make the Scorpenes functional. Don’t worry about it.”

Replying to another question whether the Governemnt will go for ‘Make in India’ option, the Minister said there are other companies who can supply it. He, however, refrained from giving further details and said these issues could not be discolsed due to security reasons.

Given the urgency of the project, sources said fresh RFP will take time and the Ministry may go for Governemnt to Governemnt deal. This process entails that the foreign made torpedo finally selected will be backed by that Government instead of the vendor.

Germany’s Atlas Elektronik had emerged as the second lowest bidder and sources said at the time of technical trials there were some differences between the German manufacturers and the French firm building the Scorpene submarinies in collaboration with MDL.

“However, it seems that the differences have been resolved now,” sources said adding that either a fresh tender could be placed or the Government may go in for direct purchase. If the issue is not resolved fast, the Navy would be inducting the first Scorpene submarine without its main anti-ship attack system.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/nation/torpedo-deal-for-scorpene-scrapped.html

 

[dadeechi]

Govt cancels torpedo deal for submarines


The government has withdrawn the tender for purchase of 98 torpedos for Scorpene submarines which a subsidiary of chopper scam tainted Italian defence conglomerate Finmeccanica had won during the UPA regime. The government action by default means that Finmeccanica will not be considered for the over Rs 1,200 crore deal for which it is likely to float a fresh tender. The subsidiary of the Italian company will not be eligible for the fresh process of selection under new rules. The government might also go in for a direct purchase of torpedos given the "critical necessity" as the first submarine is slated to be handed over to the Navy by September end. "The tender for the heavy weight torpedos have been withdrawn," defence sources said adding that an alternate is being worked on.Sources said that the SeaHake torpedos from Germany's Atlas Elektronik and France's F21 torpedos are being considered which could eventually become a 'Make in India' programme as such torpedos would be needed for other submarine projects which are in the offing. Black Shark torpedoes, made by Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei (WASS), a subsidiary of Finmeccanica, had emerged the lowest bidder to arm the Scorpene submarines, the first of which will be handed over to the Navy by September this year. However, the proposal to acquire it had been stuck for long. Various controversies had surrounded the deal which former Defence Minister A K Antony had not signed on.

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4489531.cms

 

[MilSpec]

MK48 - US
Type89 grx2 - Japan
Varunastra -Ind
Spearfish - UK

All could be in contention.

This does raises a serious problem for ordinance for Rafale/Mirage/Jaguar fleet, Finmeccanica holds 25% in MBDA which makes ASRAAM, MICA, Meteor, Storm Shadow, Exocet, AS30L, Sea Eagle, Martel in addition to that most of our anti tank is made up of Milan and Milan 2T. I hope blacklisting of Finmeccanica doesn't effect MBDA.

 

[noksss]

Torpedo deal for scorpene scrapped

The Defence Ministry has scrapped a Rs1,700-crore proposed deal for procuring torpedos from Finmeccanica for Scorpene submarines now under construction at Mazagon Docks Limited(MDL), Mumbai. The deal was put on hold in 2014 by the then UPA Government in the wake of AgustaWestland VVIP helicopter deal controversy. Finmeccanica, the Italian conglomerate is the parent company of AgustaWestland. The Government is likely to float a fresh golbal tender or request for proposal(RFP) to procure torpedos.

Disclosing this here on Tuesday, sources said Black Shark torpedo, manufactured by Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquel(WASS), a subsidiary of Finmeccanica, emerged as the lowest bidder and negotiations began in 2013 for fitting 98 torpedos on to six Scorpene submarines. Incidentally, the first submarine christened INS Kalvari is now undergoing final trials and expected to join service in September.

When asked how the Government proposed to maintain operational preparedness of the submarines in the absence of torpedos, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told a reputed national daily that “I will make the Scorpenes functional. Don’t worry about it.”

Replying to another question whether the Governemnt will go for ‘Make in India’ option, the Minister said there are other companies who can supply it. He, however, refrained from giving further details and said these issues could not be discolsed due to security reasons.

Given the urgency of the project, sources said fresh RFP will take time and the Ministry may go for Governemnt to Governemnt deal. This process entails that the foreign made torpedo finally selected will be backed by that Government instead of the vendor.

Germany’s Atlas Elektronik had emerged as the second lowest bidder and sources said at the time of technical trials there were some differences between the German manufacturers and the French firm building the Scorpene submarinies in collaboration with MDL.

“However, it seems that the differences have been resolved now,” sources said adding that either a fresh tender could be placed or the Government may go in for direct purchase. If the issue is not resolved fast, the Navy would be inducting the first Scorpene submarine without its main anti-ship attack system.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/nation/torpedo-deal-for-scorpene-scrapped.html

Not a right decision the DM should have cleared this as a special case considering the urgency shown by Navy . When he himself said many times that Blacklisting has affected the armed forces and the product has to be cleared on some special cases why he is not walking the talk now?

 

[Majet Raha]

MK48 - US
Type89 grx2 - Japan
Varunastra -Ind
Spearfish - UK

All could be in contention.

This does raises a serious problem for ordinance for Rafale/Mirage/Jaguar fleet, Finmeccanica holds 25% in MBDA which makes ASRAAM, MICA, Meteor, Storm Shadow, Exocet, AS30L, Sea Eagle, Martel in addition to that most of our anti tank is made up of Milan and Milan 2T. I hope blacklisting of Finmeccanica doesn't effect MBDA.

What happened to Varunastra ?

I agree with your concerns about blacklisting and this deal should have gone through. But since it stands cancelled, what are the options?

And again question about Varunastra?

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

German torpedoes coming.

 

[mehboobkz]

http://news.rediff.com/commentary/2...ut-torpedoes/fd3a783591e32fa48d9819d8658afe31

 

[unbiasedopinion]

Total timewaste money wasting exercises. Creation of RFP, floating it, receiving response, analysing and validating it, on technical and financial validation, finalization , production cycle..it is a long process and has time and financial implications.

What is DM and Indian government doing here? Just wasting tax payers money on just floating RFPs. I think this has become a routine to siphon off money in the disguise of RFP.

One after another, Defence ministry is cancelling every order. This does raise a concern on the thinking process behind these decisions.

 

[mehboobkz]

What torpedo is Arihant carrying?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ans-indian-plant-with-billionaire-anil-ambani

 

[MilSpec]

German torpedoes coming.

which german torp?

 

[proud_indian]

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SIDDHARTH, ANUP & GHOST: The solution is at hand: the INJ's 6 Scorpene SSKs will be armed with the F-21 torpedoes that will be supplied by DCNS. An extra cost of US$30 million will be incurred in the process, since the torpedo fire-control software on the 6 SUBTICS CMS units will now have to be modified & upgraded & only DCNS can do this since the IPRs for the source-codes for SUBTICS are all owned by DCNS. Here are the details on the F-21, which actually is a derivative of the Black Shark & still contains several components supplied by WASS:

The wire-guided F-21 is scheduled to be operational in 2016. DCNS has developed an important component for safe deployment: an energy pack based on an aluminium/silver oxide electric battery that needs seawater for activation—an element unlikely to be found in the submarine. The new torpedo weighs 1.2 tons, has a range of 50km (31 miles), speed of 50 Knots, and 1-hour endurance. It can attack multiple targets and has extended fibre-optic wire guidance. DCNS says it is resistant to most countermeasures. The warhead contains PBX B2211, a high-impulse, high-bubble-energy, insensitive explosive that conforms to NATO’s STANAG 4439 and France’s MURAT (Munitions a Risques Attenues) standards. The torpedo uses an all-electric “fuse-and-slapper” detonation technology. Primarily used in missiles, the plasma-based slapper system is more stable and safer than the conventional electro-mechanical detonation systems in most torpedoes. To meet submarine safety requirements, the F-21 will be launched by a technique in which it is pushed out of the boat by a piston, after which a valve in the torpedo opens and lets seawater into the battery to activate it. The battery provides high energy density and is the best-performing type on the market. The battery is sufficiently compact that the overall length of the F-21—6 metres (19.6-feet) long with a 21-inch diameter—is compatible with legacy launchers. One problem with competitive torpedoes that are equipped with older-generation batteries is that to achieve the energy for their missions and countermeasures, they need long batteries, which add so much to their length that they no longer fit into launchers. The torpedo must also have enough energy left once it has reached its target to attack and sink it. The F-21 is digital and operates in depths of 15-500 meters, which means it can be used in littoral and blue-water operations. In shallow waters there are “parasite” sounds that confuse torpedoes, which home in on targets acoustically. The F-21 treats the sound signals digitally with the same up-to-date processing as in modern shipborne sonars.

Additional data on the F-21 is available here:

http://www.gican.asso.fr/content/f21


France F21 Development

In 2008 France signed a development contract for 93 heavy torpedoes for its nuclear submarines, to be delivered from 2015.[5] The original plan called for a derivative of the Black Shark to be built by a joint venture between DCNS, Thales and WASS,[6] but they fell out and DCNS will now be developing the F21 Artemis with Thales and Atlas Elektronik.[5] The F21 shares similarities with the Black Shark, including an electric motor driven by an aluminium silver-oxide (AgO-Al) battery.[7] It will have a warhead of PBX B2211, range of 50 km (31 mi) and speed of 50 knots (93 km/h).[8] As of 2012 the project has a €485m budget with a unit cost of €2.3m (FY12), or €5.2m including development costs.[5] The F21 was first tested on DCNS's Pégase catamaran in February 2013 and a submarine launch is planned for 2014, with production deliveries scheduled to start in late 2015.[9]

 

[Agent_47]

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SIDDHARTH, ANUP & GHOST: The solution is at hand: the INJ's 6 Scorpene SSKs will be armed with the F-21 torpedoes that will be supplied by DCNS. An extra cost of US$30 million will be incurred in the process, since the torpedo fire-control software on the 6 SUBTICS CMS units will now have to be modified & upgraded & only DCNS can do this since the IPRs for the source-codes for SUBTICS are all owned by DCNS. Here are the details on the F-21, which actually is a derivative of the Black Shark & still contains several components supplied by WASS:

The wire-guided F-21 is scheduled to be operational in 2016. DCNS has developed an important component for safe deployment: an energy pack based on an aluminium/silver oxide electric battery that needs seawater for activation—an element unlikely to be found in the submarine. The new torpedo weighs 1.2 tons, has a range of 50km (31 miles), speed of 50 Knots, and 1-hour endurance. It can attack multiple targets and has extended fibre-optic wire guidance. DCNS says it is resistant to most countermeasures. The warhead contains PBX B2211, a high-impulse, high-bubble-energy, insensitive explosive that conforms to NATO’s STANAG 4439 and France’s MURAT (Munitions a Risques Attenues) standards. The torpedo uses an all-electric “fuse-and-slapper” detonation technology. Primarily used in missiles, the plasma-based slapper system is more stable and safer than the conventional electro-mechanical detonation systems in most torpedoes. To meet submarine safety requirements, the F-21 will be launched by a technique in which it is pushed out of the boat by a piston, after which a valve in the torpedo opens and lets seawater into the battery to activate it. The battery provides high energy density and is the best-performing type on the market. The battery is sufficiently compact that the overall length of the F-21—6 metres (19.6-feet) long with a 21-inch diameter—is compatible with legacy launchers. One problem with competitive torpedoes that are equipped with older-generation batteries is that to achieve the energy for their missions and countermeasures, they need long batteries, which add so much to their length that they no longer fit into launchers. The torpedo must also have enough energy left once it has reached its target to attack and sink it. The F-21 is digital and operates in depths of 15-500 meters, which means it can be used in littoral and blue-water operations. In shallow waters there are “parasite” sounds that confuse torpedoes, which home in on targets acoustically. The F-21 treats the sound signals digitally with the same up-to-date processing as in modern shipborne sonars.

Additional data on the F-21 is available here:

http://www.gican.asso.fr/content/f21


France F21 Development

In 2008 France signed a development contract for 93 heavy torpedoes for its nuclear submarines, to be delivered from 2015.[5] The original plan called for a derivative of the Black Shark to be built by a joint venture between DCNS, Thales and WASS,[6] but they fell out and DCNS will now be developing the F21 Artemis with Thales and Atlas Elektronik.[5] The F21 shares similarities with the Black Shark, including an electric motor driven by an aluminium silver-oxide (AgO-Al) battery.[7] It will have a warhead of PBX B2211, range of 50 km (31 mi) and speed of 50 knots (93 km/h).[8] As of 2012 the project has a €485m budget with a unit cost of €2.3m (FY12), or €5.2m including development costs.[5] The F21 was first tested on DCNS's Pégase catamaran in February 2013 and a submarine launch is planned for 2014, with production deliveries scheduled to start in late 2015.[9]

Be it Seahake or F21, Parrikar will be looking for joint prodction.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

which german torp?

DM 2A Mod4.

Last year when German Chancellor visited here,their group apart from having talks on the ongoing Towed Array system project , offered torpedo too.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SIDDHARTH, ANUP & GHOST: The solution is at hand: the INJ's 6 Scorpene SSKs will be armed with the F-21 torpedoes that will be supplied by DCNS. An extra cost of US$30 million will be incurred in the process, since the torpedo fire-control software on the 6 SUBTICS CMS units will now have to be modified & upgraded & only DCNS can do this since the IPRs for the source-codes for SUBTICS are all owned by DCNS. Here are the details on the F-21, which actually is a derivative of the Black Shark & still contains several components supplied by WASS:

The wire-guided F-21 is scheduled to be operational in 2016. DCNS has developed an important component for safe deployment: an energy pack based on an aluminium/silver oxide electric battery that needs seawater for activation—an element unlikely to be found in the submarine. The new torpedo weighs 1.2 tons, has a range of 50km (31 miles), speed of 50 Knots, and 1-hour endurance. It can attack multiple targets and has extended fibre-optic wire guidance. DCNS says it is resistant to most countermeasures. The warhead contains PBX B2211, a high-impulse, high-bubble-energy, insensitive explosive that conforms to NATO’s STANAG 4439 and France’s MURAT (Munitions a Risques Attenues) standards. The torpedo uses an all-electric “fuse-and-slapper” detonation technology. Primarily used in missiles, the plasma-based slapper system is more stable and safer than the conventional electro-mechanical detonation systems in most torpedoes. To meet submarine safety requirements, the F-21 will be launched by a technique in which it is pushed out of the boat by a piston, after which a valve in the torpedo opens and lets seawater into the battery to activate it. The battery provides high energy density and is the best-performing type on the market. The battery is sufficiently compact that the overall length of the F-21—6 metres (19.6-feet) long with a 21-inch diameter—is compatible with legacy launchers. One problem with competitive torpedoes that are equipped with older-generation batteries is that to achieve the energy for their missions and countermeasures, they need long batteries, which add so much to their length that they no longer fit into launchers. The torpedo must also have enough energy left once it has reached its target to attack and sink it. The F-21 is digital and operates in depths of 15-500 meters, which means it can be used in littoral and blue-water operations. In shallow waters there are “parasite” sounds that confuse torpedoes, which home in on targets acoustically. The F-21 treats the sound signals digitally with the same up-to-date processing as in modern shipborne sonars.

Additional data on the F-21 is available here:

http://www.gican.asso.fr/content/f21


France F21 Development

In 2008 France signed a development contract for 93 heavy torpedoes for its nuclear submarines, to be delivered from 2015.[5] The original plan called for a derivative of the Black Shark to be built by a joint venture between DCNS, Thales and WASS,[6] but they fell out and DCNS will now be developing the F21 Artemis with Thales and Atlas Elektronik.[5] The F21 shares similarities with the Black Shark, including an electric motor driven by an aluminium silver-oxide (AgO-Al) battery.[7] It will have a warhead of PBX B2211, range of 50 km (31 mi) and speed of 50 knots (93 km/h).[8] As of 2012 the project has a €485m budget with a unit cost of €2.3m (FY12), or €5.2m including development costs.[5] The F21 was first tested on DCNS's Pégase catamaran in February 2013 and a submarine launch is planned for 2014, with production deliveries scheduled to start in late 2015.[9]

That's misleading.

Chile Type 209s have SUBTICs, they use American torpedoes.

While Pakistan's Agosta 90B also have SUBTICs and they also don't use Black Shark.

 

[Skaði]

Try this:

Nothing says, "it's gotta die" like ADCAP

One hit kill.

Not as dramatic here, but still a killshot

And just for fun, look at what it takes to sink a ship using AShMs:

Read the ticker at the bottom of the video. Mutliple AShMs and even guided bombs!! One ADCAP puts that ship at the bottom of the ocean.