Top Ten Muslim Militaries

[niaz]

One can never go by what is on paper. You can say that Pakistan armed forces are the strongest because if about to lose, Pakistan has the ability to Nuke. If use of nuclear weapons is not an option; it can be argued that the Turkey, being a member of NATO has the strongest and fightingest conventional Army.

IMO the true strength of the military is determined not by wining battles but by winning wars. Pakistan has so far not demonstrated capability to fight a long drawn out war. Only two Muslim countries have the manpower and inner strength to fight long wars on their own and still survive. These are Turkey and Iran.

Ottoman Turkey allied with Germany in WWI and lost. During the war of independence (1919-1922) Turkish forces led by Ata Turk Mustafa Kemal Pasha fought French, British & Greek forces and liberated their homeland. Regret to say that PA has yet to demonstrate that it can fight vastly superior forces for three years and come out on top. Our so called victorius1965 war exhausted PA after 17 days!

It is therefore height of the wishful thinking that Hon Members rate PA above Turkish Army. I am as much as patriot as any Pakistani but not given to flights of fancy.

 

[TaimiKhan]

One can never go by what is on paper. You can say that Pakistan armed forces are the strongest because if about to lose, Pakistan has the ability to Nuke. If use of nuclear weapons is not an option; it can be argued that the Turkey, being a member of NATO has the strongest and fightingest conventional Army.

IMO the true strength of the military is determined not by wining battles but by winning wars. Pakistan has so far not demonstrated capability to fight a long drawn out war. Only two Muslim countries have the manpower and inner strength to fight long wars on their own and still survive. These are Turkey and Iran.

Ottoman Turkey allied with Germany in WWI and lost. During the war of independence (1919-1922) Turkish forces led by Ata Turk Mustafa Kemal Pasha fought French, British & Greek forces and liberated their homeland. Regret to say that PA has yet to demonstrate that it can fight vastly superior forces for three years and come out on top. Our so called victorius1965 war exhausted PA after 17 days!

It is therefore height of the wishful thinking that Hon Members rate PA above Turkish Army. I am as much as patriot as any Pakistani but not given to flights of fancy.

Sir, just to little bit add & differ with your opinion, the dynamics of war have changed a lot. WW1 was mostly trench warfare, while WWII & later wars like ours 65 were more dynamic then their predecessors. Turkey at that time was one huge empire, a khilafat having nearly all the Middle East under it, with vast resources in equipment & manpower to sustain a prolong war, plus it was World War, economies become War economies, preference is military equipment, rest of the economy is left as a secondary objective.

There were no air forces, armor or mechanized formations the way there were in WW2 & in our wars, need huge oil reserves to keep running all these equipment in a non stop movement, needing money & infrastructure. These new dynamics changed the face of battle field & battles & wars became more fluent compared to WW1. Germany even in losing days was producing tanks, fighters & other equipment in thousands, becoz it had changed into a war economy. God forbid, if something like that comes onto us, we will be able to sustain a prolonged war as our economy then has to become a war economy. Also, in 65 we had very less emphasis on self reliance, a lesson learned & today we are much much self reliant compared to the 65 situation where we had nearly exhausted the war ammo & reserves.

Crux is, times has changed, the art of warfare has changed, plus when any situation comes on a country, for its survival it changes to face that problem. Turkish did that, so did the Iranians. Plus the resources a country has also matters for it to sustain a long war. Turkey has huge resources, Iran had resources, specially oil to sustain the war in one way or another. Plus Turkey was itself a military power of the region & world at that time.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

One can never go by what is on paper. You can say that Pakistan armed forces are the strongest because if about to lose, Pakistan has the ability to Nuke. If use of nuclear weapons is not an option; it can be argued that the Turkey, being a member of NATO has the strongest and fightingest conventional Army.

IMO the true strength of the military is determined not by wining battles but by winning wars. Pakistan has so far not demonstrated capability to fight a long drawn out war. Only two Muslim countries have the manpower and inner strength to fight long wars on their own and still survive. These are Turkey and Iran.

Ottoman Turkey allied with Germany in WWI and lost. During the war of independence (1919-1922) Turkish forces led by Ata Turk Mustafa Kemal Pasha fought French, British & Greek forces and liberated their homeland. Regret to say that PA has yet to demonstrate that it can fight vastly superior forces for three years and come out on top. Our so called victorius1965 war exhausted PA after 17 days!

It is therefore height of the wishful thinking that Hon Members rate PA above Turkish Army. I am as much as patriot as any Pakistani but not given to flights of fancy.

Firstly, 1965 war was fought bravely by Pakistan and the fighter planes and the technology was way more advanced then the 1919 fights when it was all army battles or odd planes flying around .. of course it will take 3 years.

But for your reference, Pakistani Armned froces are occupied in Siachen heights , where the forces face the extreme form of weather patterns ... and they show great courage.

Soon we will take over Afghanistan , which is rightfully a new province for Pakistan

East Pakistan friends are more then welcomed to join back as they have not really gained much ... since 1971 , at least with West Pakistan , they might not be bullied by India over water disputes




Ideally , the way I see it

Afghanisatan (The new east Pakistan Province) + Pakistan + West Pakisan (Bangladesh)

 

[ejaz007]

Firstly, 1965 war was fought bravely by Pakistan and the fighter planes and the technology was way more advanced then the 1919 fights when it was all army battles or odd planes flying around .. of course it will take 3 years.

But for your reference, Pakistani Armned froces are occupied in Siachen heights , where the forces face the extreme form of weather patterns ... and they show great courage.

Soon we will take over Afghanistan , which is rightfully a new province for Pakistan

East Pakistan friends are more then welcomed to join back as they have not really gained much ... since 1971 , at least with West Pakistan , they might not be bullied by India over water disputes




Ideally , the way I see it

Afghanisatan (The new east Pakistan Province) + Pakistan + West Pakisan (Bangladesh)

Its height of wishful thinking.

I would be the last person approving annexation of Afghanistan into Pakistan. We don't want to be baby sitters for the most backward and unreliable people on the face of the world.

Bangladeshi people are more than welcome to join back but only after a free and fair plebiscite is held their. We do not wish to have forced marriages.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Firstly, 1965 war was fought bravely by Pakistan and the fighter planes and the technology was way more advanced then the 1919 fights when it was all army battles or odd planes flying around .. of course it will take 3 years.

But for your reference, Pakistani Armned froces are occupied in Siachen heights , where the forces face the extreme form of weather patterns ... and they show great courage.

Soon we will take over Afghanistan , which is rightfully a new province for Pakistan

East Pakistan friends are more then welcomed to join back as they have not really gained much ... since 1971 , at least with West Pakistan , they might not be bullied by India over water disputes




Ideally , the way I see it

Afghanisatan (The new east Pakistan Province) + Pakistan + West Pakisan (Bangladesh)

Kindly, stick to the thread in discussion. We are not talking about expanding Pakistan, we are talking about PA in the context of Muslim Armies of today.

 

[insight-out]

Its height of wishful thinking.

I would be the last person approving annexation of Afghanistan into Pakistan. We don't want to be baby sitters for the most backward and unreliable people on the face of the world.

Bangladeshi people are more than welcome to join back but only after a free and fair plebiscite is held their. We do not wish to have forced marriages.

Don't be so quick to judge others. The Afghanistan you see today is a product of some of the most profound tragedies in the history of mankind. I doubt Pakistan or Pakistanis like you would fair any better.

I don't believe an annexation of Afghanistan is even an option. Many have tried and failed. But since you believe in the fairness of plebiscites, would it be acceptable if the majority of Afghans and the majority of Pakistanis decided to merge?

 

[insight-out]

Firstly, 1965 war was fought bravely by Pakistan and the fighter planes and the technology was way more advanced then the 1919 fights when it was all army battles or odd planes flying around .. of course it will take 3 years.

But for your reference, Pakistani Armned froces are occupied in Siachen heights , where the forces face the extreme form of weather patterns ... and they show great courage.

Soon we will take over Afghanistan , which is rightfully a new province for Pakistan

East Pakistan friends are more then welcomed to join back as they have not really gained much ... since 1971 , at least with West Pakistan , they might not be bullied by India over water disputes




Ideally , the way I see it

Afghanisatan (The new east Pakistan Province) + Pakistan + West Pakisan (Bangladesh)

At this point in time, it is wishful thinking. Btw, I think you're mixing up your geography. Afghanistan is West of Pakistan and Bangladesh is East

 

[Fracker]

The one golden item Iran has is S300 air defence systems

Which mean they can , engage 100 bogies in air , and can neutralize 12 of these at a time -

Which means that Israel/US will have to launch air raid of 400-500 airplanes to neutralize the S300 units.

Other then that the whole Iran Air is at mercey of Advancing armies.

Perhaps once they aquire teh SU-30 Russian fighters or J10 or JF17 may be they can keep the battle for air supremicy for 12-14 days. Long enough for them to launch some of theor own counter strikes

But their air force is not that good their planes are relatively old

Chavez stated 2-3 years ago he will donate 24 F16 to iran or sell them its not sure that he sent those F16 to Iran

Similarly if you compare other countries then their air space will also perform same.. What is the max PAF capability? One of the major aspect of today's war fare is better communication and reporting. Pakistani army is solely dependent on air communication and ground communication, which can be blocked/intercept but when it comes to iran they can defend well because of their space program. Their satellite is 3 stage militia satellite which is capable of even deploying war fare, intercepting communication, un-interrupted reporting... which could be very good weapon again US/Israel intervention. while in case of pakistan.. whole communication system can be blocked in no time in it is solely dependent upon the technology imported by them. So they clearly knows the weaknesses and strong points.. I agree they have upper hand on many islamic countries because of their missile program, ground army and weapons, and navy. But yet is it enough to tackle the aggression of Israel/US? unless pakistan become independent like iran is, i am not sure...

 

[Fracker]

During the war of independence (1919-1922) Turkish forces led by Ata Turk Mustafa Kemal Pasha fought French, British & Greek forces and liberated their homeland. Regret to say that PA has yet to demonstrate that it can fight vastly superior forces for three years and come out on top.

Isn't Turkish Empire 1st broken after WW1 and then Kamal ata turk and his men achieve an just a small pieces (1/10) of the empire?

 

[niaz]

Side tracking the issue seems to be the norm here. I am disputing placing Pakistan military above Turkish Armed forces, not discussing very limited action on Siachin or capturing Afghanistan.

With due respect to Hon Taimikhan, trench warfare was on the Western front. Turkish forces were mainly fighting in the Middle East, Greece and in the Anatolian mainland, this did not involve any static front such as in France but either pitched battles or guerrilla actions.

There are only two criteria to compare relative military strength without physically engaging in warfare.

First is the history and military tradition. This is an indication of unity and resolve of the nation in face of adversity and leadership qualities of their leaders. I gave the example of Turkish war of Independence as evidence of inherent strength and history of the fighting capability of Turkish army. Modern Turkey has produced some very capable generals such as Anwar Pasha and Ata Turk who proved their genius fighting against the foremost military powers of their time (Great Britain and France). Things have no doubt changed since WW1 and 1965. However, one can only use actual events as reference point.

Second is the capability to fight a long war on ones own resources. Economic strength is the key element in waging a war by any country. The very fact the Pakistan is thinking of buying Turkish Milgem warships and that Turkey will MLU PAF F-16s clearly demonstrates strength of the Turkism defense industry. Let us compare the two countries economies. (All numbers are estimates sourced from the Internet)

Turkey

GDP $600- billion
Per captain GDP $8,500
Turkish Military expenditure $11 billion


Pakistan

GDP $150-billion
GDP per capita $900
Military budget $4.6 million

Total military manpower is approximately the same at around 700,000.

I repeat that if one discounts the nuclear option, Turkish military which is ranked as 3rd among the European Nato forces; should be ranked higher than Pakistan.

However there is no arguing against wishful thinking.

 

[Patriot]

I have to agree with Sir Niaz here.Turkey has a bigger Air Force and army with bigger budget then Pakistan Armed Forces.Turkey Military Industrial Complex cannot even be compared with Pakistan small industrial complex.Turkey is probably the only true muslim nation whose army can actually fight war..The other two i guess is Iran and Pakistan.Iran although in Shah Era had the best muslim armed forces.

 

[HK-47]

Turkey and Pakistan tied at number one,Pakistan for the nukes.really helpful.

 

[umar.durrani]

Well if talking about Pakistan, it has:
Nuclear
much advance weapon in Muslim and Non-Muslim world.
Pakistan is world's 6th largest army.
Destroyed former superpower Soviet union , Conflict with Present Superpower United states and responsible for massive damage of US forces in Afghanistan and thats why US and NATO cannot rule Afghanistan yet , Beat Potential Superpower India Several times.
Removing talibans which NATO and USA cannot done in 8 years.

But you talking about Turkey:
They are much strong in all fields specially they are member of NATO it mean they don't want NUCLEAR . According to NATO their first rule if some one attack on any member of NATO it supposed to be attack on against them.

 

[rajeev]

I respectfully disagree. I think you are getting too illusional

Pakistan is world's 6th largest army.

Just like China - which had the largest army at all times - even during 1950. But no one considered it as the no. 1 in the world.

Destroyed former superpower Soviet union ,

Who destroyed? American funded Mujaheddin with Saudi backing along with Egypt, Pakistan and other middle-east countries.

Conflict with Present Superpower United states and responsible for massive damage of US forces in Afghanistan and thats why US and NATO cannot rule Afghanistan yet ,

Which conflict are you talking about? Pakistan waged a war against US and no one knew about it.

Beat Potential Superpower India Several times.

When did that happen? No one else knew about this one too!

Removing talibans which NATO and USA cannot done in 8 years.

And is it removed by now?

 

[PakSher]

Pakistan does have qualitative and quantitative edge in missile development and deployment in the muslim world.