There is an interesting sub-theme - one of several - running under the surface in this thread, and that is about the origins of the Mughal emperors, of the family itself. We call them Mughals in daily parlance, which is a term standing for the short, bandy-legged, tribesmen from Mongolia who swept across China and Central Asia and formed one of history's best known empires of the steppes (there were others earlier, like the Scythians, the Goths, the Huns, in our part of the world the Kushana, the White Huns,...).
Why these Turks got called Mughals or Mongols, and the mysteries roiling around them are among the most interesting topics brought up here.
First, about the Turks.
There is a great deal of curiousity about where they sprang from, apparently fully armoured and horsed, around 600 AD, and thereafter effortlessly dominated 'their' world.
This world consisted of the Central Asian steppes first, radiating out from the Altai Mountains, where they had first taken shape from the mingling of Siberian tribes with the Mongolians, covering present-day Xinjiang, known before its Chinese conquest as East Turkestan, the slopes of the Tien Shan and the Takla Makan desert, through most of the dominion of the ancient Scythians, nomad pastoralists probably speaking east Iranian, the coast of the Black Sea, where the Golden Horde ruled for fabled years, and down through a complete linguistic domination of Anatolia without affecting its genetic make-up into a large number of pockets in Europe.
They belonged to several language sub-sections, all forms of Turkish, of which the most well-known is the Oghuz, the western branch, from which both the Seljuq and the Ottoman imperial dynasties originated. We can catch up with them after Chengiz' wars, as they identified themselves with the all-conquering Khan.
Actually the Turks of Central Asia look like that e.g Uzbek's. Turks and Mongol are closely related to each other. Babur had both Turkic and Mongol ancestry.
1. Uzbeks are in fact Turks, formed into their Uzbek identity in three phases: first during the Mongolian conquests of Genghis Khan himself, when the floating population of central Asia still keeping to pastoral ways of life largely escaped, but the city dwellers, very largely Iranian, were slaughtered in great numbers; second, during the even more bloody invasions of Timur, in which practically the last remnants of Iranians in Central Asian cities were wiped out, and the first traces of Mongols slowly adapting to the way of living of their neighbours and near-kinsmen the Turks and calling themselves Uzbek began to be seen, among others, as the Uzbegs; last, during the consolidation of these loose alliances and conversions under Shaybani Khan, Khan of the Uzbeks.
2. The relationship of Turk and Mongol was an asymmetric one. Mongols converted to Turkish ways of life; I have not read of the opposite movement.
Turks themselves were part-Mongol, part-Siberian; thereafter, as they were pushed west by the original Mongols, they imposed their language more and more on the local inhabitants, until the east-Iranian speaking steppelands became Turkish speaking. Genetically, because of the large-scale massacres that took place in the east, the population in the region of Trans-oxiana is very largely influenced by Turk genes, the population further west showed less and less Turkish influence and genetic admixture.
3. Babar was a Barlas Turk speaking the Chaghatai language (I keep forgetting which was which, but this is the proper one, I am sure). They were Turks, and so part-descended in antiquity before 600 AD from the Mongols themselves; in addition, it was the practice of Babar's grandfather's grandfather, the Emir Timur, to acknowledge the supremacy of the Chaghatai Khan, who had been left command of that region under the dispensation following Genghis' death, and to seek for himself nothing more than an Emir's title.
So Babar was purely a Turk, if that is a pure blood, of the Barlas tribe, speaking the Chaghatai dialect spoken in the area controlled by the Chaghatai Khan.
look at babars portraits.......he
looked like a mongol.....not like a turk......chinky eyes and short nose
Indeed.
the only possible responsible to this outstanding ethnography by what his own words reveal to be an expert of a high level, can be
[
Mughals= mongol fathers+turk mothers.
Good. One Indian expert is immediately matched by a Pakistani expert. Thank Heavens for these felicities.
Muslims or all Humans
Timur was a descendant of Genghiz Khan
I am pleasantly surprised at the wording.
Timur was NOT a descendant of Genghis Khan. His closest link was to take into his harem a woman married to the Chaghatai Khan.
Turk/Turkic is a lingustic term like Indo-European. Turks can be Caucasoid in Anantolia and Mongoloid in other parts or mix in Central Asia.. How many Anatolians have Turkic genes from Central asia? It people united by common language.. I can tell the difference from an Anatolian and a Central Asian Turk..
Timurid claims he is a descendent of Genghis Khan, just like Babur. I am not doubting that.
That analysis is fairly accurate. Apparently in the same manner as the Aryan languages took over north and most of east India, the Turkic languages took over most of the steppes. None of that affected the ethnicity of the Turkish speakers; such an effect happened in the east of their steppe domains, where the numbers murdered were huge and the genetic make-up shifted.
As pointed out before, Timur was not descended from Genghis, but claimed to be upholding his kingdom.
Ultimately we all claim ancestry from Adam, but the Timurid line is distinct and separate from the Mongols.
I have no such claims, and am not sure on whose behalf you are making them.
To the extent that they are not Mongol, yes, your statement is on target.
Thought Mongols were from central asia like Genghis khan and co
They were, and are. Genghis Khan and Co., by an incredible coincidence, were also Mongols. :-D
Sorry, couldn't help myself. It was a bad attack of humour.
Timur also claims ancestory from Genghis Khan. Mughal is Perisan for Mongol..
Babur came from the fragmented part of the Mongol empire, Chagatai Khanate..
Covered extensively earlier. :-D
The Turks from Central Asia, which the Mughals are relatet are mixed with Mongols which invaded Turkic Areas under Dshingis Khan. Later the Mongols in Turkic Areas also convetred to Islam and mixed with Turkic Populations of Central Asia.
Timur had Mongol Ancestor, but he spoke a Turkic Language called "Chagatai". Chagatai was widespreadet in Central Asia. Durring the first Time in Mughal Empire Chagatai were an executive Language.
I could decipher and understand the second paragraph and it is consistent with whatever I have read.
Aw geez... Not at ALL... this is a western over simplification. Babur was not a Mongol. His mother claimed descent from Chengez Khan, but his father was Timurid.
An eastern misunderstanding and full of technical errors
Babar was not a Mongol. He was a turk. Turks were part Mongol, so the first sentence needs re-writing. Timur himself was a Turkicised Mongol of the Barlas tribe.
