This Table will Hurt Much But is needed for "Constructive" Talk

[Windjammer]

Though i agree with you on highlighted part, and Pakistan would certainly win a nuclear war in case the win and lose was decided based on number of people dead........ But then we need to look at the size of both the countries and there will not be anyone left in Pakistan to celebrate this victory.....

On topic :
Some how i dont agree with OP's theory of this war...... There is not going to be any war between our nations for a simple reason "MAD"...... The very reason Pakistan has created nukes was to convey the bold message of "MAD" .....

What could cause a war between India and pakistan?? the only likely chance of that would be a reaction from India on a terrorist attack emanated from Pakistan....... With the goof up of mumbai, i am sure those agencies or non state actors are smart enough to ensure another goof up doesnt happens in case they planning an attack, and most probably there will be local support that will stop the govt from taking any drastic steps....... and the response of such attack is going to be given in different channels not necessarily thru a direct military attack on Pakistan......

Albeit you summed it up well, the dilemma of the so called non state actors is a double edge sword and can also translate into state managed actions, which can work both, either to get or divert attention. In any case both countries might poke each other to test the waters but anything beyond that leaves them with too much at stake,,,,with neither being able to celebrate the outcome.

 

[manojb]

If such a thing happens, the nuclear fallout will most certainly affect China's western provinces as well.

Dont worry, Since we are talking about MAD India will lob dozen nukes on China too.. after all it was China who gifted nuke to Pak,

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Capt.Popeye
you captured the idea of my posting and I am pleased. It is really satisfying when someone understands your angle (of attack)
the joke is collateral and the jest is meant as a dark humour to something extremely chilling not just in the sense of radiated consequences but also at the lack of comprehension & the dismissive views. the comic element had a darker purpose which you and a handful others have captured.

there are no winners, (Simple) in any case whether conventional or non conventional war between the two, the consequences will be devastating for both country and over billion of population
I enjoy taking a shot at these lovely clueless cretins who insist on thinking in a single dimension.


@Oscar
babu saab. yes, in every sense a small or large scale nuclear conflict will have devastating impact on the region lasting decades if not centuries. I will count those fortunate that will perish immediately. Those who will be left will suffocate in the nuclear atmosphere and die due to unrest looting and hunger if their bodies cling on to life.
this table was meant to show the fallacy of bravado and the consequences of outrageous actions which are better left as mere words during election campaigns.



Since the announcement of cold start doctrine and other similar military strategies by India. The Pakistani state has responded in a similar fashion to blunt or defeat the onslaught. in some cases the words were enough to pass the message to the targeted audience and the rest of the world (comments about lowering of the threshold that sent shock-waves). improvements on precise & compact delivery systems from a verity of platforms have also been "showcased" to discourage the notion that a conventional invasion by India could/ would be responded with what will not only defeat the Indian plans but just the mere mention will send chills and at best tiger an irate and hypertensive commentary by the Indian state echelons.

that said the modes operandi is now changing and asymmetric and proxy war is a go to choice of Islamabad & Dehli.
Indian state sees no advantage and no motivation to de escalate the war fever although Uncle Sam has clipped round the ear and told Dehli to be a good boy and start the "dialogue" for the namesake at least during the time Americans can benefit from the current Zarb e Azb operation and Pak-Afghan cooperation.

@Irfan Baloch Where did you get this table from?

@Capt.Popeye should I tell him?

 

[nair]

[USER=25913]@Capt.Popeye should I tell him? [/USER]

Is it an open secret??????

By the way did you miss the Zee campaign during India Pak match????

 

[Butchcassidy]

People who think that the politicians and the armed forces on both the sides will allow this are naive. You dont kill the cow you milk

 

[Irfan Baloch]

With all due respect, there is no situation where Pakistani Military can Lose in the situations.

For your Discussion

My personal opinion is it comes down to Pakistani military choosing to preserve itself along with it's influence on the country vs launching Tactical nukes which will ensure an MAD situation, if push comes to shove, what does the military brass choose?

Counter Narrative

All of the above is if any of sequence of events are as you mention. but most likely there will be no cold start as a military riposte to massive terror attack in India.

Thanks for taking your time.

The first part of the post is based on an assumption which is a national view point of India and is unfortunately flawed. No proxy (read JuD, LeT or whatever you put here) is more dear more important than the state itself and can be discarded , disowned or even destroyed if and when needed. Every other country, state, empire has done that throughout history and Pakistan is not in a parallel universe. No one comes even close to how much Afghan Taliban were/ are important to us but they were ditched although they did get one formal warning by our ISIS chief and Saudi Prince Turkey Al Faisal but rest is history. Re Kashmir I groups, Indian suspicions are exaggerated and discount the fact that in many cases we have been fighting them. I wont even grace the name of someone who trolls India and is irrelevant and fake & was an unknown entity but Indian state and media coverage has given him the legitimacy (yes HS).

Your second part headed counter narrative is interesting.

Although in physical sense there is no change in the forward deployment of Indian forces along the borders with Pakistan. Pakistan’s counter to such eventuality may or may not have played in change of plans.

Final part re chaos in Pakistan since the 9/11 is stating the obvious and you have been too generous in taking all the credit for India. Unfortunately for us (and fortunately for you) many states in the middle east have direct or indirect and benefit from the chaos in Pakistan. Indian involvement in the subversive activities is not a new thing since the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan and before in the shape of Hammer group and Baloch Samachar to Karachi ethnic strife .. India has been very active within Pakistan and from across the border. Although recently there have been some major blows to Indian investment after the premature closure of half a dozen such terror centres in Afghanistan since Karzai got the boot such changes are hit India badly and thee is a lot of panic in the communication traffic we have intercepted J. But lets leave it for another section since this is mushroom cloud section. Know what I am saying ?

 

[SrNair]

In 1965 your rockets failed to reach any of those cities.
It is well known that Indian army strategy has always been to hit the civilians, despite the fact that Pakistanis knows it, they continue to live in those cities.
However, i think its very stupid of Pakistan army for not striking hindu army proactively, and waiting for some apocalypse to be started by modi.



Indians plans always perpetuate along the lines, whether its military rule or democrazy.
Who is the CoAS, how much they control PM of Pakistan.

That was in 1965.This 21st century.

 

[SrNair]

Thanks for taking your time.

The first part of the post is based on an assumption which is a national view point of India and is unfortunately flawed. No proxy (read JuD, LeT or whatever you put here) is more dear more important than the state itself and can be discarded , disowned or even destroyed if and when needed. Every other country, state, empire has done that throughout history and Pakistan is not in a parallel universe. No one comes even close to how much Afghan Taliban were/ are important to us but they were ditched although they did get one formal warning by our ISIS chief and Saudi Prince Turkey Al Faisal but rest is history. Re Kashmir I groups, Indian suspicions are exaggerated and discount the fact that in many cases we have been fighting them. I wont even grace the name of someone who trolls India and is irrelevant and fake & was an unknown entity but Indian state and media coverage has given him the legitimacy (yes HS).

Your second part headed counter narrative is interesting.

Although in physical sense there is no change in the forward deployment of Indian forces along the borders with Pakistan. Pakistan’s counter to such eventuality may or may not have played in change of plans.

Final part re chaos in Pakistan since the 9/11 is stating the obvious and you have been too generous in taking all the credit for India. Unfortunately for us (and fortunately for you) many states in the middle east have direct or indirect and benefit from the chaos in Pakistan. Indian involvement in the subversive activities is not a new thing since the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan and before in the shape of Hammer group and Baloch Samachar to Karachi ethnic strife .. India has been very active within Pakistan and from across the border. Although recently there have been some major blows to Indian investment after the premature closure of half a dozen such terror centres in Afghanistan since Karzai got the boot such changes are hit India badly and thee is a lot of panic in the communication traffic we have intercepted J. But lets leave it for another section since this is mushroom cloud section. Know what I am saying ?

@Irfan Baloch


You should consider the advantage of Israel when it comes to.the war against the Arabs.Though Arab states have manpower several times higher than the Israel they were humiliated by Israel several times.


Ajit Doval is considerd as the most rigid NSA of India.But he also rejected a possibility of war with Pakistan.
In a war those who employ most advanced weapons would be the winner.Current scenario showseconomy is the next gen warfare tool .And you know that the India can.use these tool effectively when the time arise.
And like you said the assets nurtured by the real belivers in the middle east would be enough for severe vulnerbilities in Pakistan .At any case we wont go for war .And in future if we enforced to do so.We will ensure the victory through one way or another.Either economy or by advancement in defensive and offensive weapons. inner

 

[acid rain]

This thread is total BS. As it stands, the next major 72 virgin attack will result in Pakistan losing territory. Its upto Pakistan to decide whether they want to lose everything along with that by attempting to go nuke.

The table is even more BS. The part where it says Pakistan readies all its missiles had me falling off the chair. You obviously have no clue what a huge task it is to arm even one missile, forget your entire arsenal. If you think India is going to stand and watch Pakistan mating their warheads to delivery systems, I have a bridge to sell you,no wait, take it for free.

It's funny that so called experts and seniors lack this basic knowledge...yes, In full fledged conflict, India will wait till all pakistanis missiles are brought together and assembled and loaded and readied for launch...In fact launched...and then..As we are saints...we will wait for the first strike from Pakistan to hit us and then send our own arsenal. I'll take up your offer on the bridge and sell it to them for a profit.

 

[SQ8]

It's funny that so called experts and seniors lack this basic knowledge...yes, In full fledged conflict, India will wait till all pakistanis missiles are brought together and assembled and loaded and readied for launch...In fact launched...and then..As we are saints...we will wait for the first strike from Pakistan to hit us and then send our own arsenal. I'll take up your offer on the bridge and sell it to them for a profit.

Or perhaps these people know slightly more about how and when in wartime such events occur. Instead of thinking that warheads are moved garlanded on buses with music playing. Thankfully, these people are also smart enough to ignore smart alec like yourself.

 

[acid rain]

Or perhaps these people know slightly more about how and when in wartime such events occur. Instead of thinking that warheads are moved garlanded on buses with music playing. Thankfully, these people are also smart enough to ignore smart alec like yourself.

Thanks for the compliment Oscar. .

I carried on with the humour provided in the op.

 

[Didact]

Or perhaps these people know slightly more about how and when in wartime such events occur. Instead of thinking that warheads are moved garlanded on buses with music playing. Thankfully, these people are also smart enough to ignore smart alec like yourself.

I'm in the mood for trivia today, so here's one for the nuke-e-moins on both sides:

Apparently, The then PM Manmohan Singh had a little tete-e-tete with The chief of Army Services after 26/11. Here's a little version of the most interesting (and frightening) part of the talk:

Manmohan Singh: If Pakistan were to launch a missile at us, would we be able to tell if it was nuclear or not?

The COAS: Of course Sir, we have systems so that the moment it impacts the ground, we will know.

The PM was visibly preturbed by the answer. Still, he asked another Q:

Manmohan Singh: If we were to launch a conventional missile, will Pakistan be able to differentiate between a nuclear strike and a conventional attack?

The COAS couldn't give a satisfactory answer, or the rumor goes. Coincidentally, this happened to be the last meeting wherein a conventional response to Mumbai was discussed.

I can't vouch for the authenticity of this dialogue though.

 

[SQ8]

I'm in the mood for trivia today, so here's one for the nuke-e-moins on both sides:

Apparently, The then PM Manmohan Singh had a little tete-e-tete with The chief of Army Services after 26/11. Here's a little version of the most interesting (and frightening) part of the talk:

Manmohan Singh: If Pakistan were to launch a missile at us, would we be able to tell if it was nuclear or not?

The COAS: Of course Sir, we have systems so that the moment it impacts the ground, we will know.

The PM was visibly preturbed by the answer. Still, he asked another Q:

Manmohan Singh: If we were to launch a conventional missile, will Pakistan be able to differentiate between a nuclear strike and a conventional attack?

The COAS couldn't give a satisfactory answer, or the rumor goes. Coincidentally, this happened to be the last meeting wherein a conventional response to Mumbai was discussed.

I can't vouch for the authenticity of this dialogue though.

Which brings that rather ominous question of whether ANY of the very interesting assets that are ballistic in nature can be used at all?

 

[Didact]

Which brings that rather ominous question of whether ANY of the very interesting assets that are ballistic in nature can be used at all?

Such a hypothetical use of a ballistic asset in a conventional role isn't an impossibility, atleast in the theoretical paradigm. In reality, however, that will require an intense, almost abnormal amount of confidence in your adversary's ISR capability and rationality of strategic thought.

That brief description should pretty much sum up which side would most likely make that call if faced with such a choice. History will tell you that there's been only one side whose made such 'bold' strategic choices. That's again ironical because that side's using the irrationality of their command to prevent escalation to a war.

But all convoluted discussions aside, Even Pakistan will think twice, thrice before making that call. Especially using the NASR, because PAkistan has structured (to their credit) the discussion on that missile in such a way that the first action the radar operator who sees that missile climb will execute is announce a possible Nuke strike.

And experience will tell you that it only takes a few wrong reports in the fog of war to make horrifying conclusions, which lead to terrifying consequences.

And as far as India is concerned, no matter what any one might say in the open, no commander or politician will like to be remembered as the guy who wiped out his own country. So war itself is out of the question as far as we are concerned, forget ballistic missiles in conventional roles.

 

[acid rain]

I'm in the mood for trivia today, so here's one for the nuke-e-moins on both sides:

Apparently, The then PM Manmohan Singh had a little tete-e-tete with The chief of Army Services after 26/11. Here's a little version of the most interesting (and frightening) part of the talk:

Manmohan Singh: If Pakistan were to launch a missile at us, would we be able to tell if it was nuclear or not?

The COAS: Of course Sir, we have systems so that the moment it impacts the ground, we will know.

The PM was visibly preturbed by the answer. Still, he asked another Q:

Manmohan Singh: If we were to launch a conventional missile, will Pakistan be able to differentiate between a nuclear strike and a conventional attack?

The COAS couldn't give a satisfactory answer, or the rumor goes. Coincidentally, this happened to be the last meeting wherein a conventional response to Mumbai was discussed.

I can't vouch for the authenticity of this dialogue though.

That's scary...even the launch of a battle field rocket such as nasr can be temporarily presumed to be a nuke launch...especially when such nukes have been actively pursued by Pakistan.