Third regiment of T-72 tanks to be moved to Ladakh soon

[Nilgiri]

Mountains prevent manoeuvring of tanks to full extent which can affect flanking of enemy forces from desired directions. In early days, 106mm RR's required LOS to take out armour and in some cases bazookas were scarce but with ATGM's in hands of infantry now, tanks can be ambushed easily.

If the requirement was firepower in the region then it could have been through MLRS regiment or a squadron of attack helicopters. The MLRS regiment would have packed a strong punch at strongholds where as helicopters are more manoeuvrable and faster than tanks with quick delivery of firepower.
I also saw a pic of BMP, which means mechanised infantry is also in area, this means that IA plans an offensive in the region to transport infantry into enemy area.

Back in 1965, when a Pakistani infantry Battalion CO saw Indian tanks in Kashmir region,he couldnt stop laughing when a sepoy standing next to him said sir bharat kay pass itna tank hay kay isko samajh bhi nai ati kahan istamal karay.

hopefully these tanks dont find a way towards Leh and towards AK border during a war with pakistan.

I don't know if its been talked about in this thread (it seems to be a standard my tank is better than your tank poop slinging affair which my eyes glaze over for the most part).....but a significant issue is that all the medium/heavy tanks that China has in its arsenal are air cooled if I am not mistaken.

This makes their operation in very high altitude areas (like Ladakh plateau, Aksai Chin etc) much more constrained compared to the water cooled engines that T-72 ajeya and ajeya-plus in India's arsenal have....especially if we are going to talk about peak power operations.

I mean it wouldn't be such an issue if the engines are gasoline driven (if you read the studies governing aircraft piston engines during WW2 when they were specifically investigating such considerations).......but diesel engines are real beasts when it comes to cooling and really benefit from the pressure driven cooling that liquid cooling offers compared to air. When you start cutting off air availability, their performance is compromised somewhat significantly.

Of course a lot depends on the exact type of operations the tanks will be used for.....Chinese tank commanders can form a defensive matrix strategy so that maneuvering considerations are not so dominant.....but of course there are counters from the attacking side to deal with this too. It will resort to cat and mouse type tactics I feel and will ultimately hinge a lot on the dynamism of the local field commanders.

A bit on the latest upgrade for the T-72 platform in India:

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.ca/2016/04/new-power-pack-for-indian-armys-t-72.html

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Taygibay @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Ankit Kumar 002 @kaykay @Zarvan

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

I don't know if its been talked about in this thread (it seems to be a standard my tank is better than your tank poop slinging affair which my eyes glaze over for the most part).....but a significant issue is that all the medium/heavy tanks that China has in its arsenal are air cooled if I am not mistaken.

This makes their operation in very high altitude areas (like Ladakh plateau, Aksai Chin etc) much more constrained compared to the water cooled engines that T-72 ajeya and ajeya-plus in India's arsenal have....especially if we are going to talk about peak power operations.

I mean it wouldn't be such an issue if the engines are gasoline driven (if you read the studies governing aircraft piston engines during WW2 when they were specifically investigating such considerations).......but diesel engines are real beasts when it comes to cooling and really benefit from the pressure driven cooling that liquid cooling offers compared to air. When you start cutting off air availability, their performance is compromised somewhat significantly.

Of course a lot depends on the exact type of operations the tanks will be used for.....Chinese tank commanders can form a defensive matrix strategy so that maneuvering considerations are not so dominant.....but of course there are counters from the attacking side to deal with this too. It will resort to cat and mouse type tactics I feel and will ultimately hinge a lot on the dynamism of the local field commanders.

A bit on the latest upgrade for the T-72 platform in India:

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.ca/2016/04/new-power-pack-for-indian-armys-t-72.html

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Taygibay @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Ankit Kumar 002 @kaykay @Zarvan

Alcohol ?
@PARIKRAMA
We have an old Mahindra Jeep and yearly journey in the winter means a quarter of bottle is added to the radiator, does it work in tanks without hazard ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Alcohol ?
@PARIKRAMA
We have an old Mahindra Jeep and yearly journey in the winter means a quarter of bottle is added to the radiator, does it work in tanks without hazard ?

i read about diesel engines
See this link.. http://www.mycleandiesel.com/pages/Glycerin.aspx
But as link said i am sure mixing such things will void the warranty of the engines unless its tested by DRDO and such a modification is allowed in written SOP for operational routine

 

[Nilgiri]

Alcohol ?
@PARIKRAMA
We have an old Mahindra Jeep and yearly journey in the winter means a quarter of bottle is added to the radiator, does it work in tanks without hazard ?

Yes alcohol would help the medium (makes it more resistant to freezing and also provide better heat transfer)....but they probably have a dedicated antifreeze to use in the tank water cooling system.

 

[Grevion]

I saw a documentary by NDTV on these tanks stationed in Ladakh. The commander explained that they have to start the engines of the T-72 tanks atleast twice every night to keep them alive and kicking

 

[Taygibay]

Your post made me think of old cars that came with block heaters, Nilgiri.

So a sort of APU, the heat of which can keep the main engine warm enough.
It can be electric with batteries or gas or whatever that starts under cold temps.

The advantage is in the retrofit option that is rather easy but it may not suffice
entirely to give the tank the same reaction time as that of proper war machine.

And tanks being such a fat inviting target already ... every second counts!!

Have a great day. mate, Tay.

 

[third eye]

Back in 1965, when a Pakistani infantry Battalion CO saw Indian tanks in Kashmir region,he couldnt stop laughing when a sepoy standing next to him said sir bharat kay pass itna tank hay kay isko samajh bhi nai ati kahan istamal karay.

Armour was not used in Kashmir in 65 - Jammu - yes .

Wonder what the soldier saw .

I don't know if its been talked about in this thread (it seems to be a standard my tank is better than your tank poop slinging affair which my eyes glaze over for the most part).....but a significant issue is that all the medium/heavy tanks that China has in its arsenal are air cooled if I am not mistaken.

This makes their operation in very high altitude areas (like Ladakh plateau, Aksai Chin etc) much more constrained compared to the water cooled engines that T-72 ajeya and ajeya-plus in India's arsenal have....especially if we are going to talk about peak power operations.

The efficiency of air cooled engines depends on the ambient temp of the region it operates in. To that end barring small periods the ambient in Laddakh stays within limits.

Further, the other aspect that needs attention is air filters. In case of tanks with GT engines this assumes importance. The terrain in parts of ladakh is such that high degree of air filtration is needed.

We have an old Mahindra Jeep and yearly journey in the winter means a quarter of bottle is added to the radiator, does it work in tanks without hazard ?

Anti Freeze mixture is regularly put in radiators.

 

[Michael Corleone]

No the pics are from excercise with Russia in Russia.

The one soldier is belong with USA or Israeli in the second picture.

 

[Signalian]

I don't know if its been talked about in this thread (it seems to be a standard my tank is better than your tank poop slinging affair which my eyes glaze over for the most part).....but a significant issue is that all the medium/heavy tanks that China has in its arsenal are air cooled if I am not mistaken.

This makes their operation in very high altitude areas (like Ladakh plateau, Aksai Chin etc) much more constrained compared to the water cooled engines that T-72 ajeya and ajeya-plus in India's arsenal have....especially if we are going to talk about peak power operations.

I mean it wouldn't be such an issue if the engines are gasoline driven (if you read the studies governing aircraft piston engines during WW2 when they were specifically investigating such considerations).......but diesel engines are real beasts when it comes to cooling and really benefit from the pressure driven cooling that liquid cooling offers compared to air. When you start cutting off air availability, their performance is compromised somewhat significantly.

Of course a lot depends on the exact type of operations the tanks will be used for.....Chinese tank commanders can form a defensive matrix strategy so that maneuvering considerations are not so dominant.....but of course there are counters from the attacking side to deal with this too. It will resort to cat and mouse type tactics I feel and will ultimately hinge a lot on the dynamism of the local field commanders.

A bit on the latest upgrade for the T-72 platform in India:

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.ca/2016/04/new-power-pack-for-indian-armys-t-72.html

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Taygibay @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Ankit Kumar 002 @kaykay @Zarvan

ZTZ-99 and ZTZ-96 diesel engines both are liquid cooled engines, not air cooled. I doubt that PLA will use any other tank in this region if their engines are air cooled and ZTZ-99 and its variants are the best that PLA has.

It seems that PLA is more interested in para and heli dropping troops in this area rather than an armoured thrust. Something on lines of rapid reaction forces .Although i havent been able to find out which formations of PLA are deployed in this area. Only one division is shown. Anyways, a PLA para drop armed with ATGM's on IA armoured formations in the area will cause havoc.
An attack helicopter squadron would have a better chance in hovering around mountains even whereas MLRS deployments would have made probable locations for PLA advance death traps.

PLA and IA are on different level of planning of offense and defence for this region.

Armour was not used in Kashmir in 65 - Jammu - yes .

Wonder what the soldier saw .

An IA armoured brigade deployed between 10 Infantry Division at Poonch and 26 Infantry Division, was covering entries to Jammu and Samba.

Book Reference : India's War Since Independence Vol 2. by Maj Gen Sukhwant Singh.

Pakistan troops had reached Akhnur and Jammu was only 28 km away by road. The IA Armoured brigade was defending entrances of Jammu, it wasnt inside Jammu, which means Pakistani troops must have come close to it.

 

[third eye]

Pakistan troops had reached Akhnur and Jammu was only 28 km away by road. The IA Armoured brigade was defending entrances of Jammu, it wasnt inside Jammu, which means Pakistani troops must have come close to it.

They did not reach Akhnur , stopped in general area Jaurian.

Next , you have reiterated my point. There was no armour in Kashmir . Armour was used by both sides in Jammu area which is good tank country.

 

[Signalian]

They did not reach Akhnur , stopped in general area Jaurian.

Next , you have reiterated my point. There was no armour in Kashmir . Armour was used by both sides in Jammu area which is good tank country.

So Jammu is not in kashmir?

If Jammu is in Kashmir then IA tanks were in kashmir in 1965

 

[third eye]

So Jammu is not kashmir?

Just as I suspected.

Jammu is one of the 3 regions. Kashmir & Ladak being the other two.

FYI pak armour was also used in the same region. So was was your imaginary soldier and his CO laughing at ?

 

[Signalian]

Just as I suspected.

Jammu is one of the 3 regions. Kashmir & Ladak being the other two.

I gave reference of Indian armoured Brigade regarding jammu to correct you that brigade was around Jammu not inside it, but you twisted it somewhere else.

You can make ten regions out of it if you want. From PA perspective, all this region is taken as IO-Kashmir, not selected parts.which means Indian armour was in kashmir in 1965

FYI pak armour was also used in the same region. So was was your imaginary soldier and his CO laughing at ?

IA AMX-13 tanks attached to 191 Brigade

In May 1965 as part of “Operation Ablaze” (Indian plan of mobilisation/shifting forward of forces in Punjab in May 1965) the Indians placed a tank squadron of AMX-13 Light tanks under command 191 Brigade

For further reading instead of chewing my head over a useless topic.

Activities of the Gibraltar Force Infiltrators in Chamb-Jaurian forced the Indians to bring in two additional infantry battalions by end of August 1965, 38 however, both infantry battalions reverted to their parent formations after successfully dealing with the Gibraltar Force infiltrators by end of August.39 In 1956, 80 Indian Infantry Brigade responsible for defence of area Naushahra-Rajauri-Jhangar had pointed out that 191 Brigade defending Chamb-Jaurian Sector to his left constituted a vulnerable left flank. The same officer as Brigadier General Staff 15 Indian Corps Kashmir had concluded that Pakistani troops attacking from opposite Chamb could capture Chamb and had recommended stationing of a tank regiment in the sector, upgrading 191 Infantry Brigade to a division and construction of an alternate bridge over the Chenab at Riasi. None of these recommendations except upgradation of Akhnur Bridge to carry AMX-13 tanks were accepted by the Indian higher headquarters!

Read more here.
http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/sept/grand-slam.htm

 

[Nilgiri]

I saw a documentary by NDTV on these tanks stationed in Ladakh. The commander explained that they have to start the engines of the T-72 tanks atleast twice every night to keep them alive and kicking

Here in Canada it is not uncommon to keep diesel locomotives (esp older veterans) running on idle and not turning them off at all during winter.

The heat inertia lost in such a big block system is a bigger factor in starting them up again compared to the fuel spent running them on idle (actually quite negligible).

@anant_s

The efficiency of air cooled engines depends on the ambient temp of the region it operates in. To that end barring small periods the ambient in Laddakh stays within limits.

Was talking more about the ambient pressure. For example my friend notices a distinct difference when he is in a high altitude area with his performance pick up truck (he competes in various circuits around north american including places like colorado). With thinner air in even more high altitude areas, and the difference in densities (and thus cooling capacities of air compared to water)....I think water cooling vs air cooling would make a difference for diesel fuel hogs like tanks in very high altitude areas.....regardless of air temperature.

Though cooler air in winter would definitely help the cause for air cooled version, there would still be an advantage in water cooled at peak sustained maneuvering I believe.

ZTZ-99 and ZTZ-96 diesel engines both are liquid cooled engines, not air cooled. I doubt that PLA will use any other tank in this region if their engines are air cooled and ZTZ-99 and its variants are the best that PLA has.

Oh ok my bad. But are they stationed in Tibet area do you know?

 

[Signalian]

Oh ok my bad. But are they stationed in Tibet area do you know?

It seems so.

The premier formation responsible for leading san offensive ground campaign against India in Aksai Chin is the Xinjiang-based 6th Highland Mechanised Infantry Division (the PLA’s first fully Mechanised Infantry Division to be deployed for high-altitude warfare).

The Division comprises:
Three Mechanised Infantry Brigades. There are a total of 351 Type 86G ICVs in this Division (to be replaced in future by the ZSD-89)
One MBT Brigade (equipped with ZTZ-96G).Supplementing the ZTZ-96G MBTs (which will be used for defensive blocking operations inside TAR) are about 120 ZTZ-99A1 medium tanks, which will be used primarily for limited-in-depth offensive operations in areas facing eastern Ladakh. The ZTZ-99A1s arrived in Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) by rail in mid-2012.
One Field Artillery Brigade equipped with SH-1 155mm/52-calibre motorised self-propelled guns, plus WS-2D, WS-3 and PHL-03 300mm MBRLs (the 400mm WS-2D has a range of 400km, and one payload features three “killer unmanned aerial vehicles, while the 200km-range WS-3 uses navigation satellite guidance to achieve a 50-metre/164 feet circular error probable)
One AAA Brigade which has 27 motorised air-defence vehicles and has 108 VSHORADS launchers that come under the operational control of the AAA Brigade, which includes one Battalion of 24 towed 57mm anti-aircraft guns and one Battalion of 18 towed twin 35mm PG-99 ‘Giant Bow’ anti-aircraft guns, PGZ-04A tracked gun/missile systems, Yi Tian SHORADS, LY-60D SHORADS and HQ-12/KS-1A MR-SAMs
One Helicopter Regiment having one attack squadron of six Harbin Z-9WE helicopters and one transport squadron of six Mi-17V-5 utility/air-assault helicopters.
One Logistics Brigade.
The Division HQ comprises a Combat Engineer Battalion, an EW Battalion, a NBC Defence Battalion, the Company-size Division HQ Staff, an integral air-defence unit equipped with FN-6 VSHORADS, and a quick-reaction Infantry Company.

The Xinjiang Military District controls formations like:
4th Highland Motorised Infantry Division (and its 52 & 53 Mountain Infantry Brigades)
6th Highland Mechanised Infantry Division
8th Infantry Division
11th Highland Motorised Infantry Division in the trans-Karakoram Tract
1st Independent Regiment
2nd Independent Regiment
2nd Artillery Brigade
1st AAA Brigade
3rd Helicopter Regiment, and 9th Engineer Regiment.

On March 17, 2010 the PLA for the first time in its history deployed MBTs in the Tibet Military District, or TMD, these being ZTZ-96G MBTs, accompanied by Type 86G ICVs, which are with the 12th Armoured Division of the 21st Group Army (GA) under the Lanzhou MR. Overall, it is estimated that the PLA can mobilise (within three weeks), deploy and sustain up to three Division-sized formations for conducting a single-theatre campaign in Aksai Chin.

In my opinion the Indian MBT in region donot have back up armoured forces like PLA has which makes IA commander having to choose how to deploy them. Plus PLA has accompanying artillery and AAA mechanised forces.

My concern was about these IA T-72 reaching Leh or taking part in offensives against PA but looks like PLA has enough forces to keep these MBT in ladakh.