There's No Way The F-35 Will Ever Match The Eurofighter In Aerial Combat

[Esc8781]

Why not what would happen if EFT meets F-35 in Air Combat, EFT would leave hey I am of a different class stop harassing me. What is wrong with you hindustanis. On the other Threads you praise Rafale to counter F-35s easily.

What if it does? THe EF would be loaded with heavy ordinance that would hinder its own maneuverability slowing it down aerodynamically, while the F-35 would be clean and it would be over reaching mach one easily.

 

[Mosamania]

1st the F35 is VOLT and Stealth multirole fighter
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 51.4 ft (15.67 m)
Wingspan: 35 f (10.7 m)
Height: 14.2 ft (4.33 m)
Wing area: 460 ft² (42.7 m²)
Empty weight: 29,300 lb (13,300 kg)
Loaded weight: 49,540 lb (22,470 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 70,000 lb[N 8] (31,800 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 28,000 lbf (125 kN)
Thrust with afterburner: 43,000 lbf (191 kN)
Internal fuel capacity: 18,480 lb (8,382 kg)
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 1.6+ (1,200 mph, 1,930 km/h) (Tested to Mach 1.61)
Range: 1,200 nmi (2,220 km) on internal fuel
Combat radius: 584 nmi (1,080 km) on internal fuel
Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,288 m) (Tested to 43,000 ft)
Rate of climb: classified (not publicly available)
Wing loading: 91.4 lb/ft² (446 kg/m²; 526 kg/m2 loaded)
Thrust/weight: **With full fuel: 0.87
With 50% fuel: 1.07
g-Limits: 9 g (Only 4.6g in a sustained turn.)
Armament
Guns: 1 × General Dynamics GAU-22/A Equalizer 25 mm (0.984 in) 4-barreled gatling cannon, internally mounted with 180 rounds
Hardpoints: 6 × external pylons on wings with a capacity of 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) and two internal bays with two pylons each[ for a total weapons payload of 18,000 lb (8,100 kg) and provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles: *** Air-to-air missiles:
AIM-120 AMRAAM
AIM-9X Sidewinder
IRIS-T
MBDA Meteor (Pending further funding)
Air-to-surface missiles:
AGM-154 JSOW
AGM-88 AARGM
AGM-158 JASSM
Brimstone missile / MBDA SPEAR
Joint Air-to-Ground Missile
Storm Shadow missile
SOM
Anti-ship missiles:
JSM
LRASM
Bombs: *** Mark 84, Mark 83 and Mark 82 GP bombs
Mk.20 Rockeye II cluster bomb
Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser capable
Paveway series laser-guided bombs
Small Diameter Bomb (SDB)
JDAM series
B61 nuclear bomb

Anyone can copy paste the Wikipedia specs section, but what I am trying to say, is that can you disprove the Test pilot's words using technical proof the same way he did??

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Aerial Combat could be divided to close combat and beyond-visual-range air-to-air combat.

In a close combat Eurofighter seems to have an edge on maneuvering capabilities:

F35:
Empty weight: 13,300 kg
Loaded weight: 22,470 kg

Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 28,000 lbf (125 kN)
Thrust with afterburner: 43,000 lbf (191 kN)

EF:
Empty weight: 11,150 kg
Loaded weight: 16,000 kg

Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 13,000 lbf each
Thrust with afterburner: 20,000 lbf each

but considering the new generation of close combat air to air missiles technology which could easily out performed any man seated plane and the helmet-mounted tracking and fire system it seems this ability will not be as important as it was.

Now lets to check the beyond-visual-range air-to-air combat. To be honest there will be a little chance of survivability for a fighter without serious stealth capabilities considering the upcoming beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles which are under development. Most of current US aerial victories have been obtained by using AMRAAM missiles.

exactly, F-35 is supposed to be a stealthy jet which has an edge in BVR capability and that's what it was made for, engaging targets before getting detected, so getting close to the target and get involved in close ranges fighting would make it lose it's most important advantage which is stealthiness. Stealth capability was the most important feature considered in designing this plane and yet, this feature was considered on the expense of other features such as weapon load, maneuverability, speed and range, therefore it's not really surprising that Eurofighter has an edge in close combat.

 

[Mosamania]

exactly, F-35 is supposed to be a stealthy jet which has an edge in BVR capability and that's what it was made for, engaging targets before getting detected, so getting close to the target and get involved in close ranges fighting would make it lose it's most important advantage which is stealthiness. Stealth capability was the most important feature considered in designing this plane and yet, this feature was considered on the expense of other features such as weapon load, maneuverability, speed and range, therefore it's not really surprising that Eurofighter has an edge in close combat.

And this is exactly what we are trying to discuss here. How each will fair in a dogfight.


You are being called to share us some of your knowledge and expertise @gambit

Your contribution will be very valuable.

 

[500]

Imagine two guys: one is very strong but is shortsighted and cant see beyond 20 meters. Another guy is not so strong but has perfect vision. Which one is going to win a gun battle?

Sorry guys, but Typhoon has no chance against the F-35.

 

[Archie]

F-35 fleet is grounded anyway. And India did not go for Eurofighter either, instead it went for the better, that is rafale.

So Rafale is better than F-35.
In other words, India is sitting pretty.

India went for Rafale coz its better as a Multirole/Ground Attack platform while Eurofighter is more into Air Dominance , This role will be performed by PAKFA when it enters Indian service
RAFALE will replace Mig27 and Jaguars and will complement Mirage 2000V5 as a strike and CAS aircraft

 

[Mosamania]

India went for Rafale coz its better as a Multirole/Ground Attack platform while Eurofighter is more into Air Dominance , This role will be performed by PAKFA when it enters Indian service
RAFALE will replace Mig27 and Jaguars and will complement Mirage 2000V5 as a strike and CAS aircraft

There is no denying that wither at this stage or the future the Ragale will be better than the Typhoon at the Air-Ground role, same as there is no denying that wither at this time or the future the Rafale will beat h Typhoon in the Air-Air role.

 

[tigerofindia]

There is no denying that wither at this stage or the future the Typhoon will be better than the Rafale at the Air-Ground role, same as there is no denying that wither at this time or the future the Rafale will beat h Typhoon in the Air-Air role.

Sir i think you are reversing the case. Rafale is certainly better than Typhoon in Air to Ground attack Role.

 

[Mosamania]

Imagine two guys: one is very strong but is shortsighted and cant see beyond 20 meters. Another guy is not so strong but has perfect vision. Which one is going to win a gun battle?

Sorry guys, but Typhoon has no chance against the F-35.

Say the Typhoon got in a WVR with the F-35. The perfect rosy picture of two planes coming face to face from a distance and simply just pushing a button and the battle is over before it starts is similar to a teenage girl dream of prince charming.

Sooner or later she will realize it is a folly. Air-Combat is much much more complicated than that. The US can afford the F-35 operationally because the F-22 can be relied upon in the air dominance front, what will happen to countries who will depend on the F-35 for air dominance is anyone's guess. And my guess is that the teenage girl will get a very very rude awakening.

Sir i think you are reversing the case. Rafale is certainly better than Typhoon in Air to Ground attack Role.

Yes sorry Typo. I meant it the other way around.

 

[500]

Say the Typhoon got in a WVR with the F-35. The perfect rosy picture of two planes coming face to face from a distance and simply just pushing a button and the battle is over before it starts is similar to a teenage girl dream of prince charming.

Sooner or later she will realize it is a folly. Air-Combat is much much more complicated than that. The US can afford the F-35 operationally because the F-22 can be relied upon in the air dominance front, what will happen to countries who will depend on the F-35 for air dominance is anyone's guess. And my guess is that the teenage girl will get a very very rude awakening.

Yeah, if there are many short sighted guys, and good sighted guy is not very smart, probably they can prepare an ambush for him. But overall chances of short sighted guys are scanty.

Talking generally this talk reminds me what happened when 4th gen came into in. F-16 was slower and has less altitude than many 3rd gen aircraft, but it has excellent agility and modern avionics, thats why it became the most successful fighter.

Now its time for stealth and information fusion.

 

[Mosamania]

Yeah, if there are many short sighted guys, and good sighted guy is not very smart, probably they can prepare an ambush for him. But overall chances of short sighted guys are scanty.

Talking generally this talk reminds me what happened when 4th gen came into in. F-16 was slower and has less altitude than many 3rd gen aircraft, but it has excellent agility and modern avionics, thats why it became the most successful fighter.

Now its time for stealth and information fusion.

It also remindes me of the F-4. Thinking that the laws of Air-Combat forever changed with the introduction of the missile, thus no guns. In the end we all know what happened.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in anyway saying the F-35 is an awful plane or a failure, it is a very capable and frightening plane to be against, all I am saying is that it must be supplemented to increase operational capabilities . The F-35 is a gamble, and a damn big one at that. A gamble I am not prepared to put my money on.

 

[gambit]

How each will fair in a dogfight.

I said this before, and I will say it again...

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

For those who do not understand what is this 'rule'...It is anything that you have but your opponent do not have, or have of inferior quality.

For example, back in WW II, the Zero have far superior turning radius than most American fighters, however, the American fighters have superior armaments that can quickly cripple the Zero. Each have a rule that the other have in inferior quality. Does the B-17 have a turning radius? Yes, but of far inferior quality to any fighter. Does the blimp have a turning radius? Yes as well.

This fact is well established...

Republic P-47 in the Pacific

The career of the P-47 Thunderbolt in the Pacific is a good example of how important it was for the pilot to adjust their tactics to their aircraft. If a Thunderbolt pilot allowed himself to be dragged into a low level dogfight then they were in serious trouble. For pilots used to more manoeuvrable aircraft this was a major adjustment to make. However, if the pilot could adapt to the high level sweep and dive tactics needed with the Thunderbolt, then they had an aircraft capable of taking on anything the Japanese could put in the air.

The Typhoon is already busy boasting that it can match the Raptor...

The F-35 Will Never Beat The Eurofighter - Business Insider

...the Eurofighter Typhoon (that during last year’s Red Flag Alaska achieved several simulated kills against the F-22 Raptor)

Sorry, Typhoon pilots, but that has been questioned a long time ago...

The Aviationist » F-22 Raptor kill markings shown off by German Eurofighter Typhoons. "The F-22 is not invincible" saga continues.

However, as already explained several times, simulated kills scored during dissimilar BFM engagements don’t prove a fighter plane is better than another one, and are almost meaningless unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

The F-117, F-22, and B-2 usually flies with radar enhancers, including exercises. We do not know the details of those exercises that the Typhoon allegedly 'killed' the Raptors.

This is what such an enhancer look like...

How do we know that those simulated kills were not from enhanced Raptors?

But what happened when someone went up against un-enhanced Raptors?

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies

"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

This is not the movie 'Top Gun' where opposing fighters are seen together in one view. In the movie, fighters were deliberately flown close together out of the need to tell a story. At distances as portrayed in the movie, low radar observability does not help one whit. But in real life modern aerial combat, fighters are literally kilometers apart in all three axes and pilots can barely make out each other's silhouette with IFF the final determinant of who is who.

Modern aerial combat require radar information, for both guns and missiles. So if an F-15 with its well known powerful radar, as hinted by its large radome and forward fuselage, cannot acquire radar lock on a Raptor in a WVR fight, what make the Typhoon pilot confident he can do the same for the Lightning?

The 'stealth' rule will overwhelm any alleged superior maneuverability the Typhoon may have. The low radar observability ratio between the Lightning and the Raptor is in degrees (classified), but between the Lightning and the Typhoon it will be orders of magnitudes. Does anyone sane really think the Lightning pilot will hold fire until he is within visual range just be nice to his opponent?

 

[Luftwaffe]

What if it does? THe EF would be loaded with heavy ordinance that would hinder its own maneuverability slowing it down aerodynamically, while the F-35 would be clean and it would be over reaching mach one easily.

Illogical, Aircraft are mission oriented, what makes you think EFT would be flying with GBUs against F-35. Even EFT with A2A BVR/WVR [minus A2G weapons since mission is different] would still be circling around F-35. JSF is developed with AESA long range radar to detect first and shoot down first without coming-in close but if it comes into contact with Sukhoi-35 or EFT it is in Trouble if not dead meat.

PS. F-35 being clean would mean it would go down clean lol how many BVRs do you think F-35 station into its weapons compartment/weapons bay. Then there is JHCMS and HMSS, both Aircrafts have Advantages when it comes to weapons and sighting but in close combat i would pick EFT to be the winner, my opinion is EFT is second to Raptors in Air superiority [western standards].

 

[Mosamania]

I said this before, and I will say it again...

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

For those who do not understand what is this 'rule'...It is anything that you have but your opponent do not have, or have of inferior quality.

For example, back in WW II, the Zero have far superior turning radius than most American fighters, however, the American fighters have superior armaments that can quickly cripple the Zero. Each have a rule that the other have in inferior quality. Does the B-17 have a turning radius? Yes, but of far inferior quality to any fighter. Does the blimp have a turning radius? Yes as well.

This fact is well established...

Republic P-47 in the Pacific


The Typhoon is already busy boasting that it can match the Raptor...

The F-35 Will Never Beat The Eurofighter - Business Insider

Sorry, Typhoon pilots, but that has been questioned a long time ago...

The Aviationist » F-22 Raptor kill markings shown off by German Eurofighter Typhoons. "The F-22 is not invincible" saga continues.

The F-117, F-22, and B-2 usually flies with radar enhancers, including exercises. We do not know the details of those exercises that the Typhoon allegedly 'killed' the Raptors.

This is what such an enhancer look like...

How do we know that those simulated kills were not from enhanced Raptors?

But what happened when someone went up against un-enhanced Raptors?

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies

This is not the movie 'Top Gun' where opposing fighters are seen together in one view. In the movie, fighters were deliberately flown close together out of the need to tell a story. At distances as portrayed in the movie, low radar observability does not help one whit. But in real life modern aerial combat, fighters are literally kilometers apart in all three axes and pilots can barely make out each other's silhouette with IFF the final determinant of who is who.

Modern aerial combat require radar information, for both guns and missiles. So if an F-15 with its well known powerful radar, as hinted by its large radome and forward fuselage, cannot acquire radar lock on a Raptor in a WVR fight, what make the Typhoon pilot confident he can do the same for the Lightning?

The 'stealth' rule will overwhelm any alleged superior maneuverability the Typhoon may have. The low radar observability ratio between the Lightning and the Raptor is in degrees (classified), but between the Lightning and the Typhoon it will be orders of magnitudes. Does anyone sane really think the Lightning pilot will hold fire until he is within visual range just be nice to his opponent?

You are right in everything you said, which is not new to me, you forget one big advantage the Typhoon has over strength in WVR (IRST). I know that stealth pilots will do everything in their power to make sure "Nothing comes close". But say it did, the Typhoon pilot released Decoys and jinked out of an incoming BVR missile using every trick he knows amd managed to do it.

Both you and I know that it is only a matter of second before BVR turns into WVR, and they did. Does the F-35 stand a chance against the Typhoon? JHMCS are on both, both have extreme angle Short range missiles. But what the Typhoon has and the F-35 doesn't have is the fact that the Typhoon can go on loops around the F-35 before the F-35 can make a turn.

"Radar Enhancers" doesn't matter much when we are talking HSM now does it?

 

[dbc]

There is no denying that wither at this stage or the future the Typhoon will be better than the Rafale at the Air-Ground role, same as there is no denying that wither at this time or the future the Rafale will beat h Typhoon in the Air-Air role.

Mosamania, the Typhoon is constrained by its design and it cannot deliver munitions in a single pass over the kill box in the time allotted for the action better than a Rafale that was designed to be more controllable carrying and releasing heavy munitions.
This design limitation and the difference between the two is even more obvious at low altitudes.

As for the F-35, it is in an entirely different league this aircraft will bring a paradigm shift in air warfare. Fighting the F-35 close in will be like taking on the Dragon warriors in Kung Fu Panda. The dragon warriors if you haven't seen the movie are six fighters (Panda,Tigress, Monkey, Mantis, Viper, and Crane) that almost seem to be telepathically connected while engaged in a fight, heavily outnumbered by stronger dumber opponents.

Fighting two ,four or more F-35's in a single element will be nearly impossible for legacy fighters. How do you fight opponents that have a god's eye view of the entire arena? How do you fight an opponent that uses computer assisted expert decision systems that work out the best tactics for each aircraft and the entire element using real time data as the battle evolves? How do you fight an opponents that can efficiently coordinate and synchronize its actions at the speed of thought without radio chatter?