There Was No Reason To Go For Only 8 New F16's:-----

[Cool_Soldier]

Wishing and dreaming is not harmful.We can wish for latest and best choice but real issue is what we can afford and what is being offered to us in the market.Even we are facing trouble in getting these handful F16....So come out of dream world.

 

[Signalian]

pakistan should have learnt from 1965 and PAF should have learnt from its american aircraft inductions.Same story repeated in 1980, 1990, 2000's and even now. The day Pakistan goes to war, embargo will hit it and all american weapons will lose fighting efficiency.

I am just glad that PA MBT's arent US origin, its the M-109's which is the cream of the artillery and the only piece of weapon type not yet procured from China or developed indigenously. M-113 is copied as Talha and other variants after sanctions hit.

Coming to F-16's. PAF never lost interest in them, even in 1990's. It was the Chinese who came forward and helped with F-7P and PG's and then the self reliance symbol, JF-17. This should have been an eye opener for PAF. In 2005 instead of opting for more F-16's, FC-20 would have been a wise choice if not better. its easy to phase out 32 aircrafts than 76. FC-20 gives almost the same capability of F-16 if not exact and knowing that PAF has stringent criteria for inducting an aircraft, FC-20 or J-10B would have become more lethal as per PAF wishes.

If 2 squadrons of J-10B would have been inducted by now, the uprise in emotions over F16 would have started to fade. J-10B is sanction free. It could have been upgraded in different blocks too. Unlike F-16's which follow standard avionics for a certain block and efficient systems like AESA were denied. If then the F-16 were denied, no worries, induct 36 more J-10B. Maybe PAF would have asked China for a double engined version of J-10 for P-Navy.

EFT is also sanction prone, RSAF flies it and thats a hope to see it flying in skies during an event of war, Just like F-16's were kept alive and flying through TuAF and EAF help in 90's. Its expensive and PAF may not be able to acquire more than 36-40 aircraft. Its technologically advanced and thorough learning of its systems could have helped JF-17 mature in a different way also.

J-31 is years away but if PAF takes interest just like it took interest in JF-17 for its survival in 1990's, then J-31 could be the mainstay 5th gen aircraft of PAF. IAF is acquiring a 4.5 gen aircraft, Rafale, PAF could induct J-31 before IAF inducts a 5th gen aircraft. There is no remorse then even if IAF inducts a heavier 5th gen aircraft because J-31 is what PAF could have afforded and would have been inducted in good numbers by then and also in worst case PAF would start lobbying for J-20.

The funds that PAF has in its hands could either be used in development of J-31 according to PAF doctrine or these funds can be used to acquire EFT or Su35 or anyother aircraft else than F-16, but with Pakistan and USA unpredictable relations, i will not be surprised if PAF still gets green signal for these 8 F-16 after a few meetings and negotiations.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You had MANY and they corrupted your nations BONES!!! And didn't do shiit for the common Pakistani. Not even ONE dam*n project for public welfare in the past 45 years!!!! You can try another episode of those "Presi-Gens" inside your house. The nation is quiet OK with the progress and the growth that's starting to be seen across Pakistan through the civilian rules.Your military planners have done exactly what they did to the nation. Meaning no work, no up front planning, no execution and no strategy. It's ALWAYS the holly shiit moment and then blame on the civilians of course. That's always the case, find an escape goat called the Civilians!!

you are kidding right? The only thing current gov doing is just running most expensive useless projects like metro bus and all contracts were given to cement factories steel mills etc to that are owned by politicians. that same money could have been used to set up universities or schools.... but nahhh....
and btw, the capital city Islamabad is creation of a dictator.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Why was there no reason to go for 8 F16 , because we fulfilled the requirement to take out terrorist elements

Military needs to refresh the F16 stock for more precision strikes and continue to grow as a defensive force

Specially after India purchased SAMs its important for Pakistan Air-force to also improve

• Increasing DAESH dangers
  
• Increasing Taliban menace across border

Also our planes are from 80's so they need some refreshing newer planes to balance the F16
squadrons

 

[tarrar]

Answering the title, Its poor leadership by ganja, who does not know how to speak & can't handle any sort of pressure by real politicians of the world.

 

[T-72M1]

---.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Silence is required, answer about 8 F16 will be cleared very soon.Relation between both PAK-US countries are unpredictable.But according to me chances are more to win this game.

 

[The Eagle]

Hi to all.

Indeed the thread is refreshed again so I have been going through all posts shared by all members, senior than me indeed. I will put my little efforts to share that what I observed over all till now though it wouldn’t be enough to describe the situation perfectly but just a try from side. I will also request to the readers that under mentioned discussion is not in rebuttal of any claim here in above of any post or to counter the claims by any member.


Few points:-
1. The F-16s.
2. Just 8 F-16s but no more or less.


Point wise as follows:-
1. As we all know that after some turbulence in relations during past between Pakistan & USA, it was necessary to be acquaintance in diplomatic relations. Our PM visited USA with all the issues and matters in hand need to be discussed. Offering the F-16s, was indeed a move by US Government as a good will gesture and keeping in view the love of PAF and we all for F-16s, these planes were offered to a civilian elected PM for his Air Force. Seeing the necessity of the time, PAF said yes to the offer and went to deal believing the diplomacy work done by PM indeed. I wouldn’t miss the point here that availing the opportunity, might have discussed with PM by ACM for his visit as well that the F-16s may be added to the talks. Furthermore, the F-16 has become a diplomatic symbol between these two countries as in 90s it was the almost best machine available for us that US sold and no doubt the same has served us well and we were proud of that.


2. As it has been well observed in past about strategy of inducting new planes while keeping in view the lobbying pressure by the neighbors regarding numbers of a potent aircraft, might have decided to go for minimum numbers so that could be approved merely to avoid first thing among other issues like unbalancing between Air forces between of rivals. So as per my opinion going for 8 was a good move. So also as PAF is planning for more advance platform with long range and payload it would be wise to purchase the minimum for current inventory so the strength be maintained till further inductions of newer or future platform. It is also a wise decision as we have a growing platform of JF-17 with its newer blocks which will almost fulfill every duty in future by the retirement of F-16s so keeping the inventory of F-16s to the minimum as required is not to be like wasted money for short while retiring. So also, keeping in view of strategies around and need of future, this bird wouldn’t be needed that much or we may have JF-17 for the same purpose with less cost but till then a short number like these 8 and 8 more could be helpful a lot. The deal of just 8 F-16s can also be sighted as to keep the defence bridge connected with US and the current need for the time being as one of the operators of F-16s so the addition of these only 8 birds to the existing inventory would be beneficial rather going for full squadron at once with huge amount while having other plans in mind and as well as working upon.


a. Nay saying by congress
b. Our reaction

Point wise as follows:-

a. We are aware enough or less then that about the relations of US Government and congress which can be said like congress is a strong opposition to Obama and so also very well promulgated by Indian lobbyists. I feel myself that this point has been discussed a lot by posters in past and currently things work like this so in short it would be good enough to say that congress will indeed take this matter for debate and surely there will be as the SOP of US for these kinds of deals. The stall by congress is a usual thing and their way of doing business that we all may expect. So it isn’t a new thing if a big NO came even due to influence of lobbyists or to only oppose the Obama being an opposition.


b. US offered F-16s to Pakistan, PAF went to deal and things brought before to congress for approval and then a big NO came. The reply of US congress to the matter should not be a big concern for us but we should act like we wanted to buy something that the seller did not agree and we start to curse them, our leaders and even our military. We become so much emotional and forgot that relations are always needed though the level can be decided that to which extent it can be carried out in future. We almost act like there is nothing left in this world and rather getting over the weakness or lope holes start to beat the bushes. We respond like it is an end and that is exactly what the enemy has ever wished while seeing us to not to mind a nation respect but we almost plan to bring down by whatever the mean could be. We do not listen nor even give it a look that why this happened and we almost defame or demoralize the most respected institution in the manners that I am the best that should have been handling the matters or to be heard and followed.



i) The issues stopping us to have a Yes.
ii) Our responsibilities while reacting and to have a Yes.


Point wise as follows:-
i) In this discussion, I wouldn’t go for the names to avoid lengthy arguments. It has been discussed to the depth that what really a civilian government is lacking in Pakistan and how corrupted the leaders and office bearers are as well as the past which is indeed full of adversaries, tragedies, unfortunates, misshapes and our mistakes indeed. The cancer of corruption is the one most thing that has caused us the maximum damage since the start. I wouldn’t go in detail about who were/are the most corrupted or the names. Indeed the system for check and balance is needed to be strongest and to be above the personal relations of persons or wishes. It has been a dilemma that even having a system, it was never pursued by any office bearer merely for the sack of own interests whether those are business or political rivalry neither by us. Over the past, it has been witnessed that law has become a playful thing for the legislatures or the one who knows it and is used for personal benefits in every mean. The people whoever had or have power becomes over confident in dealings on behalf of the country so also sometimes avoided to seek help though other offices, opposition or group of more intelligent people, being in ego that such step may be used for political trials in next elections and the voter may think us incompetent. While in efforts to avoid such situation by office bearers, on many occasions, the interest and benefits of this country has been sacrificed only for political gain and to feed the evil soul of their ego in chase of dream to be called the leader in history. It is pertinent to mention here that in the name of democracy, our nation has been almost fooled indeed but to the some extent and the rest which is the most was always us who never being so ambitioned for the greater Pakistan. It is not like that in above discussion military has been avoided for any mistake. Indeed if military has taken any step that caused us damage but it was also the result of incompetent civilian government that was fully trusted by people and voted and that gave a chance to an officer to act and become a dictator in the name of good for this country. It is the history that no one brought forward the true facts of past despite belongs to any one but always trialed the opposition. Furthermore, diplomacy is the subject only for civilian government/ office bearers with the psych to be good in public relations and trained to deal with public affairs and with the Int’l community while on the other hand the burden of country’s security indeed leis upon the shoulders of military as trained hard for that purpose but the equation of civilian government and military training has been used wrongly many times. The most of the era which brought us sanctions and disputes was the time when this country has been ruled by the right people on the wrong time in the wrong way. All the figures participated for the growth of country in this era were right but the position they approached to do something good was a mistake and resultantly hurt the whole nation.


ii) The current government of Pakistan is indeed an elected one and presenting us in all over the world and same goes to our armed forces that do not hesitate to sacrifice their lives that we may live independently. Whenever, something happens against our expectations or wish, we are almost in habit to react things in a sentimental manner or over sentimentally. The first thing which should be done by us is, let be grown to that level where the one can’t say NO even if the lobby is stronger. However, growing to the level to have a Yes is purely our internal issue like, to which extent we should go for such relations and never to forget the sovereignty of Pakistan. Though always having a Yes is not like being a super power but we should be as much as potentially strong to be in the league of Never to Have a No. I will take it as if there is a NO by US then we have to look inside whether what is really wrong. Though there is something wrong inside then rather shouts in front of neighbors or the world, the best way could be to talk about things in house. The bashing of office bearers and military persons would bring no good to us but indeed in other words it would be like an embarrassment that we almost ignored yet everyone sees and against the norms of greater Pakistan. It is true fact that things has been done wrong and caused us damage but doesn’t mean that we should mourn until death and never to stand up like it’s an end. We can come up with ideas and solutions to the problems. We can highlight the areas that we lack so something better can be done. Our responsibility is to be remain most disciplined even there is so much turbulence, shaky waives or the rocky roads. Never to loose patients even in tense situations. My friendly and brotherly advice that do not bash our own people in front of an outsider. We should remain faithful. Let the leadership decide what is best for Pakistan. We all know that, despite few mistakes in past, PAF is getting well aligned this time so one little mistake will be like a sudden death. Indeed being Pakistani we all have passions and reaction for such kind of situations being patriots but never to forget that while in protest we may not burn our own assets which may bring nothing but regrets. All alone for PAF, I will say again here that what ever they chose as an aircraft, they are the ones going to war in that so they know what can be the best as they are the front men and will sacrifice first. As we all are Pakistan so everyone has to play his role to be the best so no one may ever say No.




The deal alone:-
It wouldn’t be wrong to say that this is not just an aircrafts deal. It is well established that there is much more attached in future with present F-16s deal in respect of relations of Pakistan and USA and diplomatic ties so also to have a vote for a favour in terms of any deal even in all West as well. On contrary, the current deal of F-16s would be counted as a deal alone subject to rejection as well like the shopkeeper removed the one thing off the shelf as not for sale but we got handful of other things and will be visiting later. So playing it like for the last time is not a farsighted move in these times or in terms of diplomacy as well.



The platforms may be opted.
There are still many options as preferably China first for J-16s, J-10s etc or Russia for SU-35s. I will be a little short here that J-16s would be like 4.5++ with twin engine so will serve the best as long range, advanced and close to 5thgen. As the J-10 is a single engine aircraft so there will be little gap left in respect of twin engine advantages. Also, China is our best friend so far and we have a bright future together so going for Chinese aircrafts would also help us in near future where the need of 5thgeneration would become essential. By going for any Chinese birds currently available for PAF would be much helpful in future in case we opts the J-31 or not to least that JF-17 program can do wonders.

SU-35 is no doubt a best aircraft but there is a thing like a little doubt for future as what if shortage of parts etc to be faced in future while keeping in view the economical situation. Also we are almost aware of flankers with the help of Chinese friends that our pilots would have hand on them I think. Procuring the SU-35 would be like the enemy haven’t to work hard to assume the almost capability of machine. But having a look at news in past about an overhauling facility of RD-93 in Pakistan, also suggest that going for SU-35 wouldn’t be that difficult.

In the last:-
No wonder, PAF would have thought and kept in mind about any shortcoming in future and as well as every right and wrong if there is any. The choice of PAF will be better indeed and keeping in view the current doctrine, whatever suits the purpose will be procured. Whatever platform has to be adopted, I wouldn’t forget to share here that PAF has the history full of surprises. My friends, love and our patriotism for our country/armed forces is can not be doubted at all but while criticizing, we may not forget the sacrifices and hard times they faced for us. A criticism is not alone a solution but rectifying the issues with ideas and possibilities are far better.

Above all was shared here only in the interest of the ideas, observations, learning, possibilities, happenings and top of that Pakistan.


Pakistan Zindabad.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I don't know much about these things but we should have some confidence in PAF command. We know little. They know the full picture.

If I was to hazard a guess I would say these F-16s are a stop gap measure for until major change down the road. F-16 is a potent fighter and in addition to the present fleet we have makes economic sense till over the horizon times comes for next generation fighter. That is when major change will take place.

Don't shoot me if what I said makes no sense. I admit I know dick*shit on this subject. My major is all things India in particular all things ugly India like starvation and human beasts of India pulling rickshaws.

*Anybody want enlightening on those subjects give us a shout. I will be happy to give "full spectrum" presentation.

WTF has the underlined $HIT even got to with the subject, i.e. F-16s for the PAF??? Hain?
@Slav Defence, @waz; here is the calibre of some of the anointed "label-wallahs" aka TTAS of PDF on display again! Is this fella yet another one of the motley PhDs here on this forum? Is it any mystery then that some guys here are intent to drag the forum only south-wards? Then they even have the gall to trumpet it around. Any hope of raising standards on PDF will only be a chimera then, is it?

 

[Imran Khan]

mil gaay f-16 ab khushi manao

 

[GoldenRatio1618]

This time If PAF will go only for 8 in future don"t expect any more militry help from American side after leaving US troops Afghan soil. they will complete put ban on Pakistan on defence equipments and fighters. PAF Need to go for alternative solutions as soon as possible by investing in future fighter projects with turkey korea china and for immediate need go for j20, j31, j11, jh7b

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The lure of the F 16 in the last meetings with the U S was tactical. It was to keep paf enticed and hooked on the program and promise----.

What basically is happening is the 90's one more time---but not to that extent. So---the goal is to delay the paf from procuring a potent NEW platform. A delay is as bad as not getting the aircraft.

From our history----we know that other things can happen during the wait time that put a purchase on hold or a back burner---like a natural disaster---bribes and bakhsheesh---a change in the minds of the leadership---from aggressive to docile---and things like that.

I know it is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for the paf---but they need to be weaned away from the new F 16's----.

The new aircraft must be a J10C category or higher aircraft---and in the meantime the paf can pursue for the used F16's to bring the numbers up.

A used updated and refurbished F16 is as good as a new one of the similar category.

I can tell you guys that the 5 days given to Gen Raheel Shareef were as meaningless for the U S as they could be---. They put up a face for Gen Raheel for old times sakes----and other than that it was a sort of final goodbye. It was all fake by the U S all made up---all the drama of meeting and briefing the senators and pentagon and visits were to make pakistan happy but no substance behind it.

And in that feel good moment and process---Nawaz Shareef promised the U S an arm and a leg----he is not going to get back much----. The actions of U S congress speak louder than the words----.

 

[rockstar08]

8 or 18 , wont make a dot difference ...
when you enemy is 3 times larger than you .. if people think 8 or 18 Planes can do wonders than they need to come out from their Stupid Patriotism ..
it become a Pattern for PAF and PN to issue such statements after every time our enemy induct anything or any weapon ..
" Hum watan ki sarhadon ki hifaazat ke liye har waqt tayyaar hai " .... Damn i hate such comments when they know they are not and have no match for enemy ..

 

[batmannow]

pakistan should have learnt from 1965 and PAF should have learnt from its american aircraft inductions.Same story repeated in 1980, 1990, 2000's and even now. The day Pakistan goes to war, embargo will hit it and all american weapons will lose fighting efficiency.

I am just glad that PA MBT's arent US origin, its the M-109's which is the cream of the artillery and the only piece of weapon type not yet procured from China or developed indigenously. M-113 is copied as Talha and other variants after sanctions hit.

Coming to F-16's. PAF never lost interest in them, even in 1990's. It was the Chinese who came forward and helped with F-7P and PG's and then the self reliance symbol, JF-17. This should have been an eye opener for PAF. In 2005 instead of opting for more F-16's, FC-20 would have been a wise choice if not better. its easy to phase out 32 aircrafts than 76. FC-20 gives almost the same capability of F-16 if not exact and knowing that PAF has stringent criteria for inducting an aircraft, FC-20 or J-10B would have become more lethal as per PAF wishes.

If 2 squadrons of J-10B would have been inducted by now, the uprise in emotions over F16 would have started to fade. J-10B is sanction free. It could have been upgraded in different blocks too. Unlike F-16's which follow standard avionics for a certain block and efficient systems like AESA were denied. If then the F-16 were denied, no worries, induct 36 more J-10B. Maybe PAF would have asked China for a double engined version of J-10 for P-Navy.

EFT is also sanction prone, RSAF flies it and thats a hope to see it flying in skies during an event of war, Just like F-16's were kept alive and flying through TuAF and EAF help in 90's. Its expensive and PAF may not be able to acquire more than 36-40 aircraft. Its technologically advanced and thorough learning of its systems could have helped JF-17 mature in a different way also.

J-31 is years away but if PAF takes interest just like it took interest in JF-17 for its survival in 1990's, then J-31 could be the mainstay 5th gen aircraft of PAF. IAF is acquiring a 4.5 gen aircraft, Rafale, PAF could induct J-31 before IAF inducts a 5th gen aircraft. There is no remorse then even if IAF inducts a heavier 5th gen aircraft because J-31 is what PAF could have afforded and would have been inducted in good numbers by then and also in worst case PAF would start lobbying for J-20.

The funds that PAF has in its hands could either be used in development of J-31 according to PAF doctrine or these funds can be used to acquire EFT or Su35 or anyother aircraft else than F-16, but with Pakistan and USA unpredictable relations, i will not be surprised if PAF still gets green signal for these 8 F-16 after a few meetings and negotiations.

everything in your post is cool , but there is no mention of any russian fighter jet in it ?

 

[Signalian]

everything in your post is cool , but there is no mention of any russian fighter jet in it ?

I did mention SU35 but i didnt speak on it. It has many advantages like :

1. Capable of High altitude Combat
2. Extremely high payload
3. Long range A2A/A2G missiles
4. Buddy Refuelling
5. non-EM sensors
6. Manoeuvrable at low altitudes and slow speeds due to TVC for A2A combat
7. DRFM jamming suite etc etc
I am not sure of AESA but it can be incorporated.

In the 1950's and 60's, PAF allowed USAF to fly U-2 flights from Peshawar. Even after Gary Powers U-2 incident, at the end of 1960's, USSR gave an aid of 100 T-55 tanks and Mi-8's to Pakistan.This was stopped soon through Indian requests. The Russian hardware still made it to pakistan through China: Mig-19 as F-6, T-55 as T-59, Mi-8/17.
The biggest dent came in 1980's when once again Pakistan sided USA in Afghan war and USSR became just Russia. In 1990's, its reported that Ukraine offered Russian hardware, Su27 and Mig29 to PAF as PAF was hit by F-16 embargo, nothing materialized.

Eventually PAF did go for a Russian Mig-21 variant, the F-7P/PG in 1990's and 2000's. Then after a decade came the SU-35 talk along with Mi-24 acquisition. In Samungli Airbase, an Mi-24 stands on tarmac next to Mi-17 which landed here from Afghanistan and was not let go, I am not sure if it was operational or not.

In case of SU35, the main issue again here is Indian lobby, first not to let the acquisition go through. If that goes through then lobbying again to counter any soft loan procedure or any kind of loan. If that hurdle is crossed then, embargo to spares and losses during an event of war with India or use against India under any circumstances. Lastly, India doesnt know much about JF-17 or J-10 or J-31, but india operates SU30 and can get info on all operational capabilities,technicalities of avionics suite etc of SU35 from Russia. True that RD-93 is Russian and China has played a massive part in killing the Indian lobbying here but China may not do the same for SU35, in JF-17 China has a stake. Secondly, RD-93 can be replaced by Chinese WS series of engines in future maybe, fingers crossed.

I will also talk a little about France because PAF operates Mirages III/V. These are generally obsolete aircraft but PAF has kept them airworthy through upgrades and cannibalization for spares. The ROSE upgrades were not hampered by sanctions during 1998. SAGEM and GRIFO helped PAC with upgrades. But in case of JF-17, PAF which generally believed that western avionics was better than Chinese still went for Chinese KLJ-7 over RC-400 and MBDA range of missiles. PAF doesnt compromise on quality, so apart from price for western-comparable features of KLJ-7, a reason could be keeping JF-17 sanctions free.
Its clear to India that French helped Pakistan on ROSE project in tough years, PAF was also interested in Mirage-2000 and the deal almost went through, so in future Pakistan could opt for French Rafale and that could possibly be a sanction free western platform for PAF, so going for Rafale by IAF was very smart even when USA tried to lure it through nuclear deals and F-16IN and F-18 E/F and also EFT is chosen and flown by many more nations in large numbers compared to Rafale. India also keeps Russia happy by not going for a large order of USA aircrafts and this way doesnt provide any excuse for Russia to supply SU35 to PAF.

As seen in past 50 years or so, China is the only nation capable of providing (high-end,atleast after 2000's) sanction-free hardware to Pakistan.