There is no unity among people in Pakistan.

[ito]

While I do not condone the terms used for the professional Army. Whether it is barracked or not, its presence itself shows a need for some policing on the off chance something does go wrong. Leave aside the usual tit for tat lobbing of mortars or the claims of some mythical border action team chopping heads off that would make even the darkest editions of Frank miller's Batman look almost benign. As if somehow the only role then the IA is to play is to sit in barracks and make tea while this seemingly rock solid border is penetrated in manners that would make Sunny Leone feel virtuous.

Which brings the question on whether have you been to Kashmir? Or interacted with them on a daily basis and lived among them. Oh I dont refer to the resettlement in the Jammu region but the vale itself.
All things considered your words here are worth no more than the 1010101 that represent them; all you could be is some wag from Coimbatore who took his college vacation in the Valley and found the daily grind as an assumption that all is hunky dory in the vale and those killed in places like Shopian are actually militants from some obscure village in Pakistan and not local lads.

There may not be the spite that the poster claims, but your assurances of Hunky Dory because you have "Been" to kashmir makes the likelihood of whatever you say seem pretty "9 o clock" propaganda feed rather than some actual ground reality.

Kashmir is not going anywhere nor is there some massive insurgency going to recur. Economics fuels these and better economics will always lull any storm. But to assume that the storm is over or to claim it so without providing the economic uplift and independence that form the basis for the issue is to live in a fool's paradise.

As for Pakistan and the Kashmir desire, lets get this straight. The Kashmirs can hate India or carve the Ashoka wheel into their hearts. All that matters is the water the flows from Kashmir and the strategic position of the valley. The Kashmiris; men and mice alike.. come way down in the rungs of this ladder of priority.

The reason for such large presence of Indian army personal in Kashmir is Pakistan. Everyone knows what happened in 1965 and 1998. You don't need such large army presence to 'quell' a thousand disgruntled Kashmiris. Unless Pakistan uses such cheap tactics to capture Kashmir, Indian army will have the presence there

As on Kashmiris hating Indians, which Kashmiris are you talking? I can be in Jammu and feel that I am either in Chandigarh or in Ludhiana. I can go to a movie and come home at 11 in the night and feel safe. That leaves Kashmir Valley. There is no denying that there is a sizable population that is anti India or at least not pro India. But what many Indians ask is that if 170 million Muslims can call India their home and love it, what problem that 4 million Muslims from valley have?

And again, India is a country of 1.3 billion people. There are many groups such as Maoists that hate India. You cannot go on making a new nation for each such group. You will have a million counties instead of one India.

 

[SrNair]

Pakistan would have every issue with kashmir being forecfully occupied or held whether by a muslim or non muslim nation.

This justifying of oppression due to common religion logic might be fed into indian hindu psyches and liked by them, but not pakistani's . So dont try to speak on pakistans behalf , u are a nobody here.

Now as of this comment of urs ,'Pakistanis don't hate India as a nation as much as it hates the influence of Hindus and Sikhs etc'

Again who are you to make such statement??? Pakistan has a small sikh population , did pakistan ever carried out a mass gencoide against them as u indians did?
And if one goes back to pre partition time and recall , what was the treatment meted out to muslims of subcontinent by hindus??
There were hindu restaurants with boards mounted outside , muslims and dogs arent allowed. Lets speak of j and k state. How hindu dogras had treated and oppressed muslims' of that region?

Pakistanis hate and will hate any group or nation that will try to harm her and pose an existential threat to her.

Rest yes our binding forces are islam and our love for our national identity; where the latter looks beyond faith,caste and creed. By islamic faith, whethe a shariah law is in place or not,all muslims are brothers and one unit. Now how a shariah law is going to be a source of unity? It is a law to clean up society of its ills if coreectly implemented. Now answer how it will bring unity? Speaking without knowledge.typical indian.


And as of indian unity.i do give you guys credit for that.
Aghori tribes love for cannibalism reminds me of gujrat massacres. Must be some sense of unity bubbling here.

Incredible images show life of India's cannibal Aghori tribe | Daily Mail Online

Enjoyyyyyyyyy!


Haha this map includes ajk in green areas

@fakhre mirpur

Heyyy you are just forcing them for conversion so that most of them are trying to take refugee in India .
How old are you ?15?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Heyyy you are just forcing them for conversion so that most of them are trying to take refugee in India .
How old are you ?150?

Where did that '0' come from?

 

[SrNair]

Where did that '0' come from?

Sorry sir just typo. .Edited.

I saw it when it got posted. The poster is an unbelievable comic. Can't write a grammatically correct sentence to save his life, and enters every argument with a decisive proposition, what he thinks is fact, his emotions are social reality, and everybody else is unbelievably prejudiced.

He is distinguished above all others by being totally fact-free.

I suspect extreme youth; whenever he is in trouble, he bleats for help. Unfortunately, instead of being reduced to a pile of sacrificed meat, like most bleaters, he bleats for help to another steadfast friend. I am irresistibly reminded of the story of the three billy goats.

If he had not existed, the forum would have had to invent him. For comic relief.

I have seen some earlier post of that person.According to that it is she not 'he'

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sorry sir just typo. .Edited.



I have seen some earlier post of that person.According to that it is she not 'he'

Oh dear.

 

[EXPERIMENT]

While I do not condone the terms used for the professional Army. Whether it is barracked or not, its presence itself shows a need for some policing on the off chance something does go wrong. Leave aside the usual tit for tat lobbing of mortars or the claims of some mythical border action team chopping heads off that would make even the darkest editions of Frank miller's Batman look almost benign. As if somehow the only role then the IA is to play is to sit in barracks and make tea while this seemingly rock solid border is penetrated in manners that would make Sunny Leone feel virtuous.

Which brings the question on whether have you been to Kashmir? Or interacted with them on a daily basis and lived among them. Oh I dont refer to the resettlement in the Jammu region but the vale itself.
All things considered your words here are worth no more than the 1010101 that represent them; all you could be is some wag from Coimbatore who took his college vacation in the Valley and found the daily grind as an assumption that all is hunky dory in the vale and those killed in places like Shopian are actually militants from some obscure village in Pakistan and not local lads.

There may not be the spite that the poster claims, but your assurances of Hunky Dory because you have "Been" to kashmir makes the likelihood of whatever you say seem pretty "9 o clock" propaganda feed rather than some actual ground reality.

Kashmir is not going anywhere nor is there some massive insurgency going to recur. Economics fuels these and better economics will always lull any storm. But to assume that the storm is over or to claim it so without providing the economic uplift and independence that form the basis for the issue is to live in a fool's paradise.

As for Pakistan and the Kashmir desire, lets get this straight. The Kashmirs can hate India or carve the Ashoka wheel into their hearts. All that matters is the water the flows from Kashmir and the strategic position of the valley. The Kashmiris; men and mice alike.. come way down in the rungs of this ladder of priority.

Wow your words did drag on and I did need to read them twice to make heads or tails of your points, trying to find some semblance of a question among them. So I will endeavor to try to answer as best as I can from this strange(wishy washy may be more appropriate) line of argument. Yes I am in Kashmir on a regular basis. That is as far I need to talk about that. Yes the presence of troops is more than necessary because of what we witnessed the 80's

As for water we let it flow or we get flooded. Its the fu..ing Himalaya we are talking about. When it pisses it can drown whole countries. I cannot make sense of the rest of your post. Maybe I am not intelligent enough. But lastly I know Kashmir than most... if not all on this forum.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Wow your words did drag on and I did need to read them twice to make heads or tails of your points, trying to find some semblance of a question among them. So I will endeavor to try to answer as best as I can from this strange(wishy washy may be more appropriate) line of argument. Yes I am in Kashmir on a regular basis. That is as far I need to talk about that. Yes the presence of troops is more than necessary because of what we witnessed the 80's

As for water we let it flow or we get flooded. Its the fu..ing Himalaya we are talking about. When it pisses it can drown whole countries. I cannot make sense of the rest of your post. Maybe I am not intelligent enough. But lastly I know Kashmir than most... if not all on this forum.

He's making reasonable points, in a very mellow way, so do try to get a sense of what he's saying. His opinions are not to be ignored. They reward careful and patient reading.

 

[MastanKhan]

“Pakistan crystallised as a nation against India but there is no unity among its people,” said Dr Christophe Jaffrelot, French scholar and senior research fellow of Centre d’Etudes et de Recherches Internationales (The Center for International Studies and Research).
“It’s nationalism without a nation”, he claimed. “To decentralise provinces is to strengthen them and not weaken them.”

Jaffrelot was addressing the audience during the launch of his book, ‘The Pakistan Paradox: Instability and Resilience’, at Alliance Française on Monday.

Explaining instability

“The book is an attempt at identifying the variables that explain the political trajectory of Pakistan,” he said. Jafrrelot discusses main sources of tensions in Pakistan that continue to promote instability.

According to Jafrrelot, the tension between the centralised and different ethno-lingual groups is of formidable significance. “Those in favour of ethno-linguist federation were present before Pakistan came into being,” he said. “It can also be related to Muslim League as their demand of a separate electorate was a form of separatism.”

Lahore Resolution also called for autonomy for provinces, he argued. It was after partition that Jinnah mentioned the provinces as a unitary state, he claimed.

“This alienated the decentralisation process,” he said. “The first centrifugal process began in 1950s, resulting in another partition in 1971.”

In a similar context, Jaffrelot mentioned the guerilla wars of Balochistan and other separatist movements as cases that created instability in the country.

Struggle for power

The scholar then shed light on the power struggle between democrats and autocrats. Although a democratisation process has been witnessed in Pakistani history, democracy has yet to be implemented, he argued.

“There is a balance of civilian and military power in the façade of democracy.”

Identity crises

Another dilemma facing the country is the identity crisis faced by the populace, he said. There is no consensus regarding an Islamic identity that the citizens can adhere to, he claimed.

“This was also absent before the Pakistan movement due to the division between the Aligarh and the Deobandi school of thought, that crystallised after 1857,” he argued. “Sir Syed Ahmed Khan’s role was that of a modern reformist while Deobandis were an ideological group, favouring a separatist agenda”.

The constitutions of 1956 and 1962 were similar in terms of religious ideology but the divergence mushroomed in the 1970s, he argued. “Role of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto [Pakistan Peoples' Party founder] should be scrutinised in this regard,” he opined.

Anti-Americanism

Jaffrelot discussed the surge of anti-American sentiment in the wake of the 9/11 attack and the Afghan War. “The culminating point of this trajectory was the Lal Masjid incident,” he said.

He briefly talked about how the domestic scene of Pakistan is affected by external dynamics. This dependency affects the national self-esteem of the country, he added.

His book is released world wide and can be bought through Amazon.

Published in The Express Tribune, September 23rd, 2015

Hi,

There is a lot of truth to this article----. The Pakistanis who think that they have unity---actually have no clue what it really means.

Pakistanis should not be mad or upset at what he is saying----they should appreciate that someone has had the concern and stepped up out on a limb t write that.

Which means---the writer may have a softer corner for Pakistan---or may have become tired of seeing Pakistanis roll around in the muck----like so many other things that may not have an answer---it is what it is.

Now---the prudent thing would be to see what can be done to change it. Which mice is going to bell the cat.

 

[EXPERIMENT]

Good for you. Well written.

Thank You

He's making reasonable points, in a very mellow way, so do try to get a sense of what he's saying. His opinions are not to be ignored. They reward careful and patient reading.

Fine I will rethink my response. Good advice thanks

 

[Joe Shearer]

Oh boy. One by one, the real heavy hitters are posting.

This thread is going to be worthwhile.

@EXPERIMENT

Don't know what's happening, but these gentlemen rarely post, and their opinions are maverick. They don't care who gets offended, and their posts are always - ALWAYS - worth reading carefully. I wouldn't hesitate to change my position if they suggested it. There are about eight to ten such people, including Bang Galore on the Indian side, and several more, and several others, and all must be read with open minds.

 

[Spectre]

While I do not condone the terms used for the professional Army. Whether it is barracked or not, its presence itself shows a need for some policing on the off chance something does go wrong. Leave aside the usual tit for tat lobbing of mortars or the claims of some mythical border action team chopping heads off that would make even the darkest editions of Frank miller's Batman look almost benign. As if somehow the only role then the IA is to play is to sit in barracks and make tea while this seemingly rock solid border is penetrated in manners that would make Sunny Leone feel virtuous.

Which brings the question on whether have you been to Kashmir? Or interacted with them on a daily basis and lived among them. Oh I dont refer to the resettlement in the Jammu region but the vale itself.
All things considered your words here are worth no more than the 1010101 that represent them; all you could be is some wag from Coimbatore who took his college vacation in the Valley and found the daily grind as an assumption that all is hunky dory in the vale and those killed in places like Shopian are actually militants from some obscure village in Pakistan and not local lads.

There may not be the spite that the poster claims, but your assurances of Hunky Dory because you have "Been" to kashmir makes the likelihood of whatever you say seem pretty "9 o clock" propaganda feed rather than some actual ground reality.

Kashmir is not going anywhere nor is there some massive insurgency going to recur. Economics fuels these and better economics will always lull any storm. But to assume that the storm is over or to claim it so without providing the economic uplift and independence that form the basis for the issue is to live in a fool's paradise.

As for Pakistan and the Kashmir desire, lets get this straight. The Kashmirs can hate India or carve the Ashoka wheel into their hearts. All that matters is the water the flows from Kashmir and the strategic position of the valley. The Kashmiris; men and mice alike.. come way down in the rungs of this ladder of priority.

Regarding the first past of your post - The efforts are being made not to end the insurgency but to make them irrelevant for all intents and purposes. I agree with your assertion that it is nigh impossible to eliminate - as people do have legitimate grievances and too many of them have been wronged in this long and bloody struggle.

What can be done is to let time dull their trauma through with due help in terms of improved living standards, education, employment, security - basically everything.

Modi Govt although good for India as a whole, is still a wrinkle in this plan due to perception issues and I see whatever progress being made undone every passing day.

As for Water - Beyond the existing framework - what is the realistic expectation here? Further guarantees which are enforceable or complete ownership?

Kindly comment on this thread when you have time - Water Scarcity - Future Tense?

 

[halupridol]

Now---the prudent thing would be to see what can be done to change it. Which mice is going to bell the cat.

MK,,,wud like to know,what u think shud be done to bring the change.

 

[EXPERIMENT]

Oh boy. One by one, the real heavy hitters are posting.

This thread is going to be worthwhile.
USER=144781]@EXPERIMENT[/USER]

Don't know what's happening, but these gentlemen rarely post, and their opinions are maverick. They don't care who gets offended, and their posts are always - ALWAYS - worth reading carefully. I wouldn't hesitate to change my position if they suggested it. There are about eight to ten such people, including Bang Galore on the Indian side, and several more, and several others, and all must be read with open minds.

Well as yourself, who will want to indulge the riffraff? Yet I smile at the fact that a small group of us enjoys some REAL debate.

 

[vsdoc]

As for Pakistan and the Kashmir desire, lets get this straight. The Kashmirs can hate India or carve the Ashoka wheel into their hearts. All that matters is the water the flows from Kashmir and the strategic position of the valley. The Kashmiris; men and mice alike.. come way down in the rungs of this ladder of priority.

Were we to assure you of all the waters flowing from Shiv ji's tresses via a divinely locked non-return valve Oscar, Pakistan would still find cause to fight India.

This water argument is as much a red herring as the eternal love for the Kashmiri and his right to free choice argument.

And no, I do not state this from my private white washed soapbox.

Were Pakistan to become a good boy tomorrow and stop all and any fingering, be it on the border or deep within, India will always continue to undermine the foundations of Pakistan wherever and whenever the opportunities present themselves.

There is going to be no easy talked-out solution to the mess created in 1947.

Or the perfect storm building for over a thousand years.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. Eid Mubarak

 

[Shamain]

That's the trouble: you don't understand much - most - of what is going on, what is being written. And you have the gall to stand and make stupid statements. If you can't distinguish between your stomach and that of others, what business do you have grappling with sentences with words bigger than a single syllable in them? Or do you need some help with what a syllable means?

i very well understood the bs u wrote but i didnt believe u cud 'attempt' to make such ridiculous argument...but now that you have confirmed it ,it shows where your mental score sits, pretty much in pits. You have put even the dumbest to shame, tho I did laugh out heartily, but lemme tell you,you still can't make a good clown.

Now keep your crap verbiage to urself and lemme reverse your logic on you. If my mention of your digestive apparatus makes you say 'you dont know difference btw meuum and tuum ' and you toss around words like 'larceny' just to save your face, then numbskull go and check it was you who first came around 'concerned' with others 'digestive apparatus'. Now how on earth is it your business to poke nose in others matters. And yes we can very well differentiate between whats ours and whats yours. Thats why arent on any indian forum but you are coming to pakistanis.

So now go and take ur stomach bug cure pills to provide you fruitful and productive years outside ur toilet or whatever.

I saw it when it got posted. The poster is an unbelievable comic. Can't write a grammatically correct sentence to save his life, and enters every argument with a decisive proposition, what he thinks is fact, his emotions are social reality, and everybody else is unbelievably prejudiced.

He is distinguished above all others by being totally fact-free.

I suspect extreme youth; whenever he is in trouble, he bleats for help. Unfortunately, instead of being reduced to a pile of sacrificed meat, like most bleaters, he bleats for help to another steadfast friend. I am irresistibly reminded of the story of the three billy goats.

If he had not existed, the forum would have had to invent him. For comic relief.

Which steadfast friend i called in here? Show me? We tag others so that they will read the thread , which is what numbskulls consider call for help.

And lolzz at the rest of the post . It was nothing but showed your unhealthy obsession that you could write an essay of a post on me.

Lolzzzzzzz. Even the most jobless wont care to write such lenghty rant on someone. Now since again and again u have proved that you can't make a debate let alone a healthy one , iwont really bother responding to your yap yapping.