There is no God , There is no Fate - Steven Hawking

[AUSTERLITZ]

There is god,but there is no fate.God (as in a higher sentient power) exists but he doesnt care about us.We are a byproduct of creation.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Anyone can claim to be a 'messenger' from whatever god.

An 'afterlife' is a bit of a misnomer. Death is the true afterlife. It is actually another life after this one that we seek. And why do we seek another life? Because ultimately, we are terrified that there is a finality to our existence. We are terrified that death is truly the end. So we invented the notion of an 'afterlife' or another life after this one. The proof for the afterlife is EQUALLY as important as the search for God, and so far, the proof for an afterlife is as fruitless as the search for God.

Well lets just say there is no After life, So can you explain how you or anyone else can provide Justice to everyone that was killed and been wronged by others ? what is your thought about the Ultimate justice ?
second, if there is no Life than why we die ? because of our body organs failed over time, so why can't we just replace all these Organs and keep us alive for eternity ? What about Consciousness ? Soul ? that Part which makes Gambit , Gambit .. how Gambit thinks, how he react , what comes in his mind when he first see something ? isn't it a unique experience that is completely for you ?

There is god,but there is no fate.God (as in a higher sentient power) exists but he doesnt care about us.We are a byproduct of creation.

How would you want God to care about us ? hasn't he done already for Humans to survive and thrive in this violent universe ?

 

[CriticalThought]

Anyone can claim to be a 'messenger' from whatever god.

An 'afterlife' is a bit of a misnomer. Death is the true afterlife. It is actually another life after this one that we seek. And why do we seek another life? Because ultimately, we are terrified that there is a finality to our existence. We are terrified that death is truly the end. So we invented the notion of an 'afterlife' or another life after this one. The proof for the afterlife is EQUALLY as important as the search for God, and so far, the proof for an afterlife is as fruitless as the search for God.

Aaah but you are completely avoiding the entire sequence of argumentation I am presenting. Pointwise:

1. The test is to believe in God by observing the manifestations of His Power.
2. In order to explain the full rules, He sent the Prophets (Peace be upon them).
3. The Prophets (Peace be upon them) didn't present merely an empty claim, they presented miracles as concrete, undeniable proof.
4. The Last Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has left the Holy Quran as an ever lasting miracle.

There is no invention here. The rules have been provided by Allah, and per those rules there is going to be a life after death. It is actually wrong to say that people invented this out of fear. Because throughout the ages, when the Prophets (Peace be upon them) presented this concept, people actually laughed at them and said (comprehension of actual words): "Are you saying that after we are reduced to dust and bones we will be resurrected again?" This was actually a novel concept, which ran contrary to widely held perceptions.

 

[TMA]

Here is the thing...

Science is based on the Scientific method, which by definition requires "empirical evidence" (evidence which is testable and observable).

Gravity for instance, its effects are both observable and testable. You could test it right now, you can drop a ball from sea level and measure its downwards acceleration. And you can test it again and again, whenever you like. You can test it before breakfast, after lunch and during dinner.

However, when it comes to things that do not have any empirical evidence, such as the existence of God(s) or the moment of the Big Bang (or the singularity at the center of a black hole)... well the only thing that Scientists can do in that situation is this: "Wait for evidence".

And that's how I feel as well, I'm just waiting for the evidence. Whether the God(s) exist or not, is something that is frankly beyond my current knowledge or understanding. And I also believe that the universe having mysteries that are beyond our understanding is a beautiful thing, life would be boring if we understood everything.

Even if you believe in God, you would still not understand everything (nay CANNOT understand everything)....life would still be interesting....

 

[Indos]

That is not how ANY investigation, let alone the standard scientific method, works.

Q: Is there a god?

A genuinely unbiased and objective investigation would leave that question AS IS and proceed to gather evidences regardless of what kind of evidences there are and where each piece of evidence may lead.

What you did was you injected your biases into the question and proceed to interpret what you gathered to fit the answer you already had in your mind. It does not even qualify as an inference because an 'inference' is...

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inference
a conclusion or opinion that is formed because of known facts or evidence

At this time, there is no clear proof for the existence of any god, let alone God.

Here is how a true unbiased and objective investigation works...

There is a knife with red fluid on it.

Conclusion: A murder.

Wrong. There is a difference between a 'murder' and a 'killing'. A 'murder' is always frowned upon, illegal, and punishable. A 'killing' is an act and is the foundation for a 'murder'. A 'killing' maybe justifiable and in that case, it is not a 'murder'.

Conclusion: The red fluid is blood.

Wrong. The red fluid is nothing more than an observation of something that have certain physical properties. The fluid must be analyzed of/for other physical properties. If it is blood, what kind is it? If it is animal blood, then 'murder' is eliminated because a 'murder' is attached to human beings. If the red fluid is human blood, then the investigation can lead to other paths, such as a human being. Now that a human being is attached to the knife and red fluid that was determined to be human blood, whose blood is it? The wielder of the knife or the target of the knife. A 'killing' is not ruled out, but then it is not definite either, because the human being maybe wounded and not killed.

A proper investigation would continue until at least one human being is found that is indisputably attached to the knife and blood before any conclusion is published.

So far, any declaration for the existence of God is at the level of the 'conclusion' statements above. On the other hand, scientists are obligated to follow every 'wrong' in the example above.

So you dont believe there is God ?

My analogy is simple, anything that exist is a made by a creator. Universe must be made by someone.

There are many Quran verses that can be a proof about the truth of Islam like this verse

Al Anbiya verse: 30

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

How would you want God to care about us ? hasn't he done already for Humans to survive and thrive in this violent universe ?

What i meant is praying to god is irrelevant.He/It doesnt answer,even if he/it is aware of our existence we would be too insignificant to matter in the grand scheme.We would be smaller than microbes in a body.This idea of him sending a message,messenger,laying down rules is total fancy.We are not significant enough for that,and imagine that we are.

A few years ago i saw children being killed in an earthquake.I could not explain in any way how a god that cares about us would ever let this happen.The preists will explain it as such,why do innocents die ?

1.God is punishing men for their sins.But the child didn't even understand anything.
2.God is testing us.The child never got to that stage at all.
3.It is men that cause pain and suffering,not god.Well not in this case.

Finally the conclusion that was left was very simple.Either he doesn't exist,
or he exists but is not aware/doesnt care about suffering of innocents.(not caused by sins/tests/acts of other men)
or it was an act of nature.God actually won't/can't interfere in the system he has created.Praying is useless.He is like the clockmaker who set the clock in motion and then went to sleep.The system runs on its own now though some cosmic scientist may have started the experiment.

 

[Maarkhoor]

There is god,but there is no fate.God (as in a higher sentient power) exists but he doesnt care about us.We are a byproduct of creation.

This may be Hindu mythology but Islam narrates Allah SWT created Adam and Hawa (Eve) as first human beings, first Adam and then Hawa (Eve).

 

[YeBeWarned]

What i meant is praying to god is irrelevant.He/It doesnt answer,even if he/it is aware of our existence we would be too insignificant to matter in the grand scheme.We would be smaller than microbes in a body.This idea of him sending a message,messenger,laying down rules is total fancy.We are not significant enough for that,and imagine that we are.

First of all No offense friend but you are so wrong here ..I cant say for other faith but in Islam we Say " We Humans are Ashraful Makhloqaat " means best of creation , better than Angels Jinns and whatever else out there . You think we are insignificant ? how ? we were the only one's that matters my friend , there is no Green Alien's , Super man , Thanos or Groot out there for God to care about . God took personal charge of creating this universe for one purpose to let Human thrive , Test and Worship him .

A few years ago i saw children being killed in an earthquake.I could not explain in any way how a god that cares about us would ever let this happen.The preists will explain it as such,why do innocents die ?

1.God is punishing men for their sins.But the child didn't even understand anything.
2.God is testing us.The child never got to that stage at all.
3.It is men that cause pain and suffering,not god.Well not in this case.

Whoever told you these are the only 3 Conclusion is also dead wrong , Earth quakes , Tsunami , and other natural Disasters are natural things , part of nature and part of the system God created .. he is not going to Save personally a Child or hundreds of Child by coming in like Super man and stop the rock that fall on them, he may use other means to save them but even if he don't , than it doesn't mean he is cruel or he doesn't love us , Death is something we will all suffer, and our times are pre-written which no one can or will escape , Not even Muhammad , Jesus , Moses , Adam , Ibrahim , Gabriel , Angel of Death or anything God created , We all will die and its predestined . This whole " how can God let innocent Die " is a very hypocrite Idea , a God who created us and love us more than 70 Mothers can love us does not think like that, he created a system of Life and death and some people die because of natural reason like Heart attack , AID , kidney failure or etc, some people die by natural disasters or accidents and some die in WAR's . Death is certain

Finally the conclusion that was left was very simple.Either he doesn't exist,
or he exists but is not aware/doesnt care about suffering of innocents.(not caused by sins/tests/acts of other men)
or it was an act of nature.God actually won't/can't interfere in the system he has created.Praying is useless.He is like the clockmaker who set the clock in motion and then went to sleep.The system runs on its own now though some cosmic scientist may have started the experiment.

Again wrong My friend, God is all knowing and all seeing , he just don't interfere is our affairs like you want him to, he is too mighty for such stuff .. The system he created and he let the evolution take place , but I have no reason not to believe that if we are Alive today in this Violent and extremely unstable Universe it is just because of a Higher Deity we call " Allah " .

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

This may be Hindu mythology but Islam narrates Allah SWT created Adam and Hawa (Eve) as first human beings, first Adam and then Hawa (Eve).

This is not hindu mythology,its my belief.Hindusim and abrahamic religions have some differences.
1.Both believe in single creator.In latter that god is external to creation,living beings are not part of god but created by him.In dharmic faiths god is inclusive of creation.Living beings are part of god and contain a part of him(soul) within themselves.Thus he is also expressed in different way and all paths are valid.A devotee can have seperate paths to god and thus concept of 'ishtadeva'(personal god) which someone deems as the closest manifestation of the divine.Thus large numbers of gods.This is different than abrahamic religion which has one path to god and all else is heresy/pagan etc.

2.Dharmic faiths believe in reincarnation.Abrahamic don't.Tied to this is concept of moksha and karma.
3.Karma is your ledger of good deeds or righteousness added up through your lives.Once you have enough karma you leave behind cycle of life,death,rebirth and achieve moksha(liberation) and rejoin the supreme soul(god) permanently.

3.Concept of righteous living or dharma is quite similar to ten commandments or quran verses on moral actions.Difference is its more strictly well defined and explained on what exact things are good/bad in abrahamic faiths.

4.There is a complex idea of samsara in hindusim,but i'm not too deep in that and cant say how it relates to abrahamic faiths theology.Probably for hindus creation is cyclic,birth and rebirth of universe as well.In abrahamic its linear.

5.Scripture in abrahamic faith is much more well organized and the legitimacy is based solely on scripture.There is no defining scripture in hindusim -though bhagavad gita and rig vedas are most prestigious.Its more loose and custom based and prone to variation from ethinicity/region to region.


As for adam and eve.Evolution says hello.As do the neanderthals.

 

[Maarkhoor]

This is not hindu mythology,its my belief.Hindusim and abrahamic religions have some differences.
1.Both believe in single creator.In latter that god is external to creation,living beings are not part of god but created by him.In dharmic faiths god is inclusive of creation.Living beings are part of god and contain a part of him(soul) within themselves.Thus he is also expressed in different way and all paths are valid.A devotee can have seperate paths to god and thus concept of 'ishtadeva'(personal god) which someone deems as the closest manifestation of the divine.Thus large numbers of gods.This is different than abrahamic religion which has one path to god and all else is heresy/pagan etc.

2.Dharmic faiths believe in reincarnation.Abrahamic don't.Tied to this is concept of moksha and karma.
3.Karma is your ledger of good deeds or righteousness added up through your lives.Once you have enough karma you leave behind cycle of life,death,rebirth and achieve moksha(liberation) and rejoin the supreme soul(god) permanently.

3.Concept of righteous living or dharma is quite similar to ten commandments or quran verses on moral actions.Difference is its more strictly well defined and explained on what exact things are good/bad in abrahamic faiths.

4.There is a complex idea of samsara in hindusim,but i'm not too deep in that and cant say how it relates to abrahamic faiths theology.

5.Scripture in abrahamic faith is much more well organized and the legitimacy is based solely on scripture.There is no defining scripture in hindusim -though bhagavad gita and rig vedas are most prestigious.Its more loose and custom based and prone to variation from ethinicity/region to region.


As for adam and eve.Evolution says hello.As do the neanderthals.

I don't know you are lying or sub consciously believe in mythology that humans are by product of God's avtar...some created from head, some from arms and Dalit created from foot.....Man o Man

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

I don't know you are lying or sub consciously believe in mythology that humans are by product of God's avtar...some created from head, some from arms and Dalit created from foot.....Man o Man

I don't believe in mythology.I don't believe in organized religion at all.I believe in existence of a higher power,thats all.Not in any prophets,stories,miracles,myths.I have the luxury to do that and still be considered a hindu instead of being killed for blasphemy /apostasy.
Btw dalits are never mentioned in the vedas or gita.They are a later addition.Sudras are mentioned once,but its clearly mentioned that the system is based on occupation and nature(rajasic,satvic,tamasic) of the individual..not birth.

 

[Maarkhoor]

I don't believe in mythology.I don't believe in organized religion at all.I believe in existence of a higher power,thats all.Not in any prophets,stories,miracles,myths.I have the luxury to do that and still be considered a hindu instead of being killed for blasphemy /apostasy.
Btw dalits are never mentioned in the vedas or gita.They are a later addition.Sudras are mentioned once,but its clearly mentioned that the system is based on occupation and nature(rajasic,satvic,tamasic) of the individual..not birth.

Bhai mujhe Indians ka bahoobi pata hai....when discussing religion on Pakistan forum they turned atheist since you people can't defend your mythical religion so there we go you have to answer nothing about religion but you get the freedom to put your believes on me Stealthy...

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

First of all No offense friend but you are so wrong here ..I cant say for other faith but in Islam we Say " We Humans are Ashraful Makhloqaat " means best of creation , better than Angels Jinns and whatever else out there . You think we are insignificant ? how ? we were the only one's that matters my friend , there is no Green Alien's , Super man , Thanos or Groot out there for God to care about . God took personal charge of creating this universe for one purpose to let Human thrive , Test and Worship him .


Whoever told you these are the only 3 Conclusion is also dead wrong , Earth quakes , Tsunami , and other natural Disasters are natural things , part of nature and part of the system God created .. he is not going to Save personally a Child or hundreds of Child by coming in like Super man and stop the rock that fall on them, he may use other means to save them but even if he don't , than it doesn't mean he is cruel or he doesn't love us , Death is something we will all suffer, and our times are pre-written which no one can or will escape , Not even Muhammad , Jesus , Moses , Adam , Ibrahim , Gabriel , Angel of Death or anything God created , We all will die and its predestined . This whole " how can God let innocent Die " is a very hypocrite Idea , a God who created us and love us more than 70 Mothers can love us does not think like that, he created a system of Life and death and some people die because of natural reason like Heart attack , AID , kidney failure or etc, some people die by natural disasters or accidents and some die in WAR's . Death is certain




Again wrong My friend, God is all knowing and all seeing , he just don't interfere is our affairs like you want him to, he is too mighty for such stuff .. The system he created and he let the evolution take place , but I have no reason not to believe that if we are Alive today in this Violent and extremely unstable Universe it is just because of a Higher Deity we call " Allah " .

It doesnt matter what you say or believe.I can sit in my house and say or believe i'm the best.Doesnt make it true.
It is the height of arrogance and insecurity of man to believe that such tiny species from an insignificant planet in an endless universe is the best of creation when they have no idea what is out there,what is their purpose.Humans need to feel they are special,that they have a bigger purpose.This insecurity is at the heart of such funny claims as best of creation.


If he won't save them and he knows everyone's fate beforehand there was no point in giving that child life,only to cause pain to him and everyone else and for no purpose.If he won't save them then he either doesnt care or is a clockmaker who cant adjust his own clock.The system is more powerful than him.We are on our own.No point bothering with him.

Bhai mujhe Indians ka bahoobi pata hai....when discussing religion on Pakistan forum they turned atheist since you people can't defend your mythical religion so there we go you have to answer nothing about religion but you get the freedom to put your believes on me Stealthy...

You can check my views for consistency for last 10 years.Either way you are right,this forum is not the place to discuss religion.

 

[Verve]

Evolution says hello.

Evolution theory is already dead and buried, scientifically.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

He is like the clockmaker who set the clock in motion and then went to sleep.

This seems like a more likely explanation, and might explain why we have zero empirical evidence of any creator having interfered with our universe. So far at least.

My analogy is simple, anything that exist is a made by a creator. Universe must be made by someone.

This is the point that Stephen Hawking was making.

There are several situations in our universe where "time" does not exist, notably at the point of a singularity where gravity is infinite, or for massless particles that naturally travel at the speed of light (such as photons and gluons). Due to the time dilation effect of both gravity and speed taken to the extreme.

Where time does not exist, causality (cause and effect) can be reversed, or cause and effect can happen simultaneously (such as life experienced by a photon).

So instead of:

(1) Creator creates the universe -> (2) The universe is created

It might have been the other way around:

(2) The universe is created -> (1) Creator creates the universe

Therefore, the creator of the universe, might have been the universe itself. Or both events could have happened simultaneously, both of these scenarios are possible in a situation where time does not exist, at the point of a singularity.

This is how it works according to the modern understanding of physics. And, needless to say, our modern understanding of physics is both flawed and incomplete.

Stephen Hawking is not saying this must be HOW it happened, but rather this is how it MIGHT have happened, according to our current understanding of physics.