The Un-Intended Eye Opener Of 27th Feb:---

[Peaceful Civilian]

Its now proven Chinese goodies are best then the Israelis, Amricans, & french... And its all due to PAF...

Sir nothing beats U.S.A weapons. They are far superior in quality than anyone. India fears day & india from our F16s. Imagine if we get F15s , F18s. Only One or two squardons will make their nights hell.

 

[valkyr_96]

@MastanKhan @Khafee

I reflect back to the ISPR briefing of 27th.
General AG stated, we engaged 6 Indian targets while staying in our own air-space, he repeated same again in his speech with elaboration: we lock 6 (ground) targets, while staying in our own airspace.

AVM SL repeatedly credited jF-17 for the 3 known A2A kills.

What was witnessed in skies, was either jF-17 or various un-identified falling objects. Nothing else was observed anywhere else.

On the situation, i expect Indian Su-30 were already in air. They moved Mig-21 to chase off closing in jF-17.

Even the F-16 role doesn't make much sense, looking at the battle zone.

Please tell me, On what grounds, people are chipping in with mirage theory? and what's with General AG statement of not crossing LoC?

Well Mirage....H4....bhimber gali.....thats all folks.....

 

[Mav3rick]

It is ironic that my brothers are celebrating, and even fantasizing and creating myths, about something which has NOT been disclosed by either side. All that we know factually is that a Mig-21 was destroyed but we have absolutely no evidence that it was shot down by a JF-17 or an F-16 or even a SAM etc.

What ISPR has claimed is that 2 IAF Jets were shot down but even the ISPR did not disclose which assets were used to shoot down the 2 IAF Jets. Furthermore, there is no evidence as of yet that the 2nd Jet was also shot down, it could have been hit but there is no evidence so far that the 2nd Jet too was downed. On the other hand IAF has claimed shooting down an F-16 but again no evidence at all that any F-16 was shot down.

Now, coming to the suspicious parts, ISPR claimed that they had 2 IAF pilots and then after a few hours the statement was changed to just 1 pilot; I cannot digest that ISPR is that unprofessional and so it is a mystery what happened to the story of the 2nd pilot which could be either of the following 3:

1. ISPR jumped the gun and unprofessionally claimed capture of 2 IAF pilots where there was only 1.
2. ISPR was correct, 2 pilots were apprehended but only 1 was IAF, the other was of PAF which indicates that some PAF Jet was downed and so ISPR had to revise the story.
3. ISPR was correct, 2 pilots were captured but since IAF only mentioned 1 pilot, we decided to keep the other pilot for interrogation and intel gathering or some other ****.

Now, we move on to the piece of AMRAAM that was displayed by India and which can be any one of the following:

1. The part belonged to a Taiwanese AIM-120C-5 which was used in a training exercise with IAF (perhaps a live missile was used to shoot down a target drone?) and fragments of which were available with IAF.
2. The part belongs to a PAF AIM-120C-5 which was used in a training exercise (same as above) or to shoot down some IAF asset sometime (drone/helo/Jet etc.) fragments of which fell on the other side of LoC and were available with India.
3. The serial number was painted on a bent piece of metal which does not really belong to any AIM-120C-5 and was a bluff by India.......a very very big and risky bluff.

But if you all recall, ISPR clearly stated that no F-16's were used in any activity that day which brings us back to square 1........unless:

1. PAF has hacked into the AIM-120C-5 and have mated it to a JF-17 or a ground based SAM system and that it was either fired by a JF-17 or ground based SAM asset.
2. ISPR was lying and F-16's were used in activities that day.
3. Neither any F-16 nor any AIM-120C-5 was used that day.

When there are so many if, buts and maybe's, how some of my fellow countrymen are stringing up fantasies is just beyond me.

 

[volatile]

Its not a time for chest thumping ,we have to have a plan where our bases can be protected first since enemy will not wait next time and by the way it was wonderful chess play by PAF ,next time may be they have to develop new tactics . Brahmos is serious weapon system ,lets see how planners will cater this in equation . by the way PAF has been a professional force among all 3 branches

It is ironic that my brothers are celebrating, and even fantasizing and creating myths, about something which has NOT been disclosed by either side. All that we know factually is that a Mig-21 was destroyed but we have absolutely no evidence that it was shot down by a JF-17 or an F-16 or even a SAM etc.

What ISPR has claimed is that 2 IAF Jets were shot down but even the ISPR did not disclose which assets were used to shoot down the 2 IAF Jets. Furthermore, there is no evidence as of yet that the 2nd Jet was also shot down, it could have been hit but there is no evidence so far that the 2nd Jet too was downed. On the other hand IAF has claimed shooting down an F-16 but again no evidence at all that any F-16 was shot down.

Now, coming to the suspicious parts, ISPR claimed that they had 2 IAF pilots and then after a few hours the statement was changed to just 1 pilot; I cannot digest that ISPR is that unprofessional and so it is a mystery what happened to the story of the 2nd pilot which could be either of the following 3:

1. ISPR jumped the gun and unprofessionally claimed capture of 2 IAF pilots where there was only 1.
2. ISPR was correct, 2 pilots were apprehended but only 1 was IAF, the other was of PAF which indicates that some PAF Jet was downed and so ISPR had to revise the story.
3. ISPR was correct, 2 pilots were captured but since IAF only mentioned 1 pilot, we decided to keep the other pilot for interrogation and intel gathering or some other ****.

Now, we move on to the piece of AMRAAM that was displayed by India and which can be any one of the following:

1. The part belonged to a Taiwanese AIM-120C-5 which was used in a training exercise with IAF (perhaps a live missile was used to shoot down a target drone?) and fragments of which were available with IAF.
2. The part belongs to a PAF AIM-120C-5 which was used in a training exercise (same as above) or to shoot down some IAF asset sometime (drone/helo/Jet etc.) fragments of which fell on the other side of LoC and were available with India.
3. The serial number was painted on a bent piece of metal which does not really belong to any AIM-120C-5 and was a bluff by India.......a very very big and risky bluff.

But if you all recall, ISPR clearly stated that no F-16's were used in any activity that day which brings us back to square 1........unless:

1. PAF has hacked into the AIM-120C-5 and have mated it to a JF-17 or a ground based SAM system and that it was either fired by a JF-17 or ground based SAM asset.
2. ISPR was lying and F-16's were used in activities that day.
3. Neither any F-16 nor any AIM-120C-5 was used that day.

When there are so many if, buts and maybe's, how some of my fellow countrymen are stringing up fantasies is just beyond me.

very interesting read . My opinion on above F16s were used but in defensive role and probably they were patrolling and take out 1 of the aircraft , 1 kill is credited to JF 17 most probably again it was inside Pakistan waiting for bandits to arrive . IMO if IAF claims was correct may be it was JF 17 .
Most probably
ISPR jumped the gun and unprofessionally claimed capture of 2 IAF pilots where there was only 1.

 

[Amaa'n]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-air-force-news-discussions.8600/page-412

Post # 6166. The described scenario is the most closest to reality occurring on 27th Feb.
I heard the same details.

a story was once narrated to me.....
f-16 on CAP "may" have shot down the "intruders" , justified under self defence......JFT & Mirage was the strike package, after mig21 went down, "someone" took a shot at SU30...it went down....we got the lock-on for third a/c but it was able to break it away.....legend has it BVR homed in on the bogie at a low altitude .....and the digital signature was lost on radar....that is why DG ISPR said in his press release that we hit the third one but not sure what it was ...... if Mi17 had a SPJ pod, then unfortunately the BVR may have homed in -on it.......

 

[Hellfire]

It is ironic that my brothers are celebrating, and even fantasizing and creating myths, about something which has NOT been disclosed by either side. All that we know factually is that a Mig-21 was destroyed but we have absolutely no evidence that it was shot down by a JF-17 or an F-16 or even a SAM etc.

What ISPR has claimed is that 2 IAF Jets were shot down but even the ISPR did not disclose which assets were used to shoot down the 2 IAF Jets. Furthermore, there is no evidence as of yet that the 2nd Jet was also shot down, it could have been hit but there is no evidence so far that the 2nd Jet too was downed. On the other hand IAF has claimed shooting down an F-16 but again no evidence at all that any F-16 was shot down.

Now, coming to the suspicious parts, ISPR claimed that they had 2 IAF pilots and then after a few hours the statement was changed to just 1 pilot; I cannot digest that ISPR is that unprofessional and so it is a mystery what happened to the story of the 2nd pilot which could be either of the following 3:

1. ISPR jumped the gun and unprofessionally claimed capture of 2 IAF pilots where there was only 1.
2. ISPR was correct, 2 pilots were apprehended but only 1 was IAF, the other was of PAF which indicates that some PAF Jet was downed and so ISPR had to revise the story.
3. ISPR was correct, 2 pilots were captured but since IAF only mentioned 1 pilot, we decided to keep the other pilot for interrogation and intel gathering or some other ****.

Now, we move on to the piece of AMRAAM that was displayed by India and which can be any one of the following:

1. The part belonged to a Taiwanese AIM-120C-5 which was used in a training exercise with IAF (perhaps a live missile was used to shoot down a target drone?) and fragments of which were available with IAF.
2. The part belongs to a PAF AIM-120C-5 which was used in a training exercise (same as above) or to shoot down some IAF asset sometime (drone/helo/Jet etc.) fragments of which fell on the other side of LoC and were available with India.
3. The serial number was painted on a bent piece of metal which does not really belong to any AIM-120C-5 and was a bluff by India.......a very very big and risky bluff.

But if you all recall, ISPR clearly stated that no F-16's were used in any activity that day which brings us back to square 1........unless:

1. PAF has hacked into the AIM-120C-5 and have mated it to a JF-17 or a ground based SAM system and that it was either fired by a JF-17 or ground based SAM asset.
2. ISPR was lying and F-16's were used in activities that day.
3. Neither any F-16 nor any AIM-120C-5 was used that day.

When there are so many if, buts and maybe's, how some of my fellow countrymen are stringing up fantasies is just beyond me.

A very brief summation from my side:

1. 01 x Mig-21 downed - Clear.
2. 03 x Parachutes seen - confirmed by multiple sources.
3. 02 x IAF Pilots in custody claimed by DG ISPR and PM IK Niazi - Clear.
4. 01 x IAF Pilot in custody & 01 x Pilot at CMH - Clear
5. Revision of statement to only 01 x IAF Pilot - Clear.
6. The second 'captured' pilot disappears - Clear.

False

1. Another 01 x Mig-21 downed - False*
2. Mi-17 downed by PAF - False.
3. Su - 30 MKI downed - False*
4. Members here claiming a Mirage 2000 downed - False
5. F-16s not used - False**
6. Claim that AMRAAM is integrated to JF-17 - False
7. Claim SD-10 used to down the Mig-21 - False (see point #6)


* The wreckages would have fallen within Indian side of airspace as per claims here and officially. That would have resulted in at least so called pro-azadi guy making a video and posting it on the internet. There is absolutely no way that Indians could hide that in J&K, elsewhere? May have been possible - not in J&K.

My personal comments: 03 x parachutes were seen as multiple witnesses and videos have confirmed. IA personnel confirmed same to our side. So, probability of 01 x single seater (confirmed - Mig-21; pilot captured) and 01 x (dual seater - pilots taken as per a video circulating on social media after Wg Cdr Abihnandan was taken away in PA Vehicle) is more or less likely confirmed. So, F-16? I have, seeing the data that I have been able to access, been convinced on the claim of bagging of F-16, but sans evidence, it is not a confirmation.

The insinuation that 01 x IAF pilot is being held by Pakistan as India did not claim a second pilot is not only laughable, but a downright dumb assumption, indicative of the intellectual ability of those who are holding the view.

India had more diplomatic traction to gain here (by claiming all Pilots if was true). So one can simply throw that out. Add to it, our media has a habit of butting in where it is not required to, so probability of the story being hidden is a laugh at best. Had there been another IAF pilot in your custody - the cat would have been out of the bag quite long back.

As for Mi-17, suggestion by Pakistani members of being downed by PAF is a joke. As for @Osiris claiming a blue on blue, if the gentleman has more data access than the IAF, then he may share it, because the FDR and preliminary indications (including information being passed in grapevine network on 27 Feb 2019 with me) suggest a technical fault with the helicopter. It was premised that perhaps the Indian AD had downed it, a presumption that the Court of Inquiry, conducted for every accident even in Pakistan Armed Forces, is also taking into consideration keeping in view the heightened state of alert at the time. That too, was found to be flimsy. No MANPADs were active in the area either. And anyone who has a bit of knowledge of forensics and understands the beveling resulting of a shaped projectile, can understand what occurred by looking at the picture of the tail segment.

The question then remains of what may have happened? Perhaps DG ISPR jumped the gun in claiming something that was not there? Or reacted presumptively to initial news of landing of pilots before identity could be ascertained?

 

[Windjammer]

@MastanKhan , a positive contribution and a great read sir.
Just like to add where PAF's bold actions have left the powers dumbfounded, it has also given a shock treatment to others in our vicinity, some of those who were counting on India to teach Pakistan a lesson or even making direct threats. The scenario somewhat resembles the 1965 episode when an over confident IAF didn't even bothered to disperse their aircraft and left them in open. This time India probably didn't even expected a reaction and that too in broad daylight. Kudos to PAF, just one operation and it's back to drawing boards for the IAF.

 

[Ahassan]

ask your government about this crash.....nobody in Indian media asked about those 2 pilots .... in budgam crash apart from mi17....

 

[Maxpane]

@Khafee sir who was the killer f 16 or thunder?

 

[truthseeker2010]

Hi,

The Paf may not have intended for it to have happened like it did---but the results of that day's---day light strike and skirmish over kashmir has many a powers shook up---concerned---and looking for answers---answers that may not be easy to find and consequences no easy to confront---.

The first major combat of two equally well equipped air forces of the world has some shocking results for the major powers to analyze and assess---.

The myth of the israeli / french / russian technology on one side---and on the other side---chinese technology with ruthless and brutally efficient Paf brains behind that technology in operation.

The Paf---after living all thru those years on sanctions---and as Air Marshall Latif quoted Gen Mushhy " we went with pockets full of money and no one would sell us the fighter aircraft---"---the Paf had a grudge against the claimed powers to be---they were mad as hell---mad as a hornets nest disturbed in the dark of the night---continuously being blamed for every wrong that was done in india by the indians themselves on their own---.

The indians came by choice---at a time and place of their chosing---openly threatening the pak military---and yret they had to trun tail.

In return---Pakistan's response of retaliation at a time and place of their own chosing was not taken seriously---and there were many who had reservations about it---.

But when pakistan struck back---the strike was made in the light of the day---for the world and the public to see---it was masterful---it was tectful---it was ruthless and it was brutal---.

Nobody in the world---no military power in the world expected that kind of retaliation by the pak military---.

And as they say---" success has many fathers---and defeat is an orphan---"---suddenly the indian air force felt like it had been orphaned by its very own---. Indian Prime minister after reviewing the losses---had the realization dawn on him that his aircraft were not capable of defending the motherland untill and unless he did not have the most modern Rafales---.


that was just one small part of the picture---. The bigger and the larger part of the picture was the Pakistan / China fighter / China EW package and china weapons broke the spell of the modern israeli / russian / french EW package---made it go to sleep and spun their own magic in chinese and pakistani and made the enemy fall from the skies---.

This was unexpected---was not a part of the picture---was not supposed to happen---was not allowed to happen---but it did---.

The unexpected successful exposure of the unknown newer weaponry into the air combat field by the Paf has had an eye popping effect in many a leading nations of the world---. The weapons system that was known to be below par and docile turned out to be a monster---.

i would not be surprised if mother China was equally surprised by the effectiveness of its weapons---.

Gentleman, let me tell you i have no concern with indo/pak politics, only interested in mil affairs, and i am thousands of miles away, yet this clash is still being investigated by no less than an army of sherlock holmes.

As you said that correctly this has profound effect on many capitals far away from Islamabad.

 

[Mentee]

and now SD-10 ka bara bhai PL-15

LOL its like comparing @Tps43 with Mentee

yaar I have been asking this question and no one is telling me
Which Pod is used by the Strike package if they used one in the first place ? Chinese / Turkish /American ?

@Khafee @Oscar @messiach @Tps43 @Signalian @The Eagle

No one is telling me about the loiter time of Thunder In A2g and A2A mode minus fuel tanks either.

been asking it since the day I joined this board.

 

[sneakerspark]

ROSE upgrade was done with French help. The Mirages used in strike were not ROSE upgraded, since they seemed to be from 15th Sqd, however, its debatable. In case Non-ROSE Mirages were used, then yes Chinese pod is a probability.

They were from the 15 squadron; Cobras

 

[litman]

A very brief summation from my side:

1. 01 x Mig-21 downed - Clear.
2. 03 x Parachutes seen - confirmed by multiple sources.
3. 02 x IAF Pilots in custody claimed by DG ISPR and PM IK Niazi - Clear.
4. 01 x IAF Pilot in custody & 01 x Pilot at CMH - Clear
5. Revision of statement to only 01 x IAF Pilot - Clear.
6. The second 'captured' pilot disappears - Clear.

False

1. Another 01 x Mig-21 downed - False*
2. Mi-17 downed by PAF - False.
3. Su - 30 MKI downed - False*
4. Members here claiming a Mirage 2000 downed - False
5. F-16s not used - False**
6. Claim that AMRAAM is integrated to JF-17 - False
7. Claim SD-10 used to down the Mig-21 - False (see point #6)


* The wreckages would have fallen within Indian side of airspace as per claims here and officially. That would have resulted in at least so called pro-azadi guy making a video and posting it on the internet. There is absolutely no way that Indians could hide that in J&K, elsewhere? May have been possible - not in J&K.

My personal comments: 03 x parachutes were seen as multiple witnesses and videos have confirmed. IA personnel confirmed same to our side. So, probability of 01 x single seater (confirmed - Mig-21; pilot captured) and 01 x (dual seater - pilots taken as per a video circulating on social media after Wg Cdr Abihnandan was taken away in PA Vehicle) is more or less likely confirmed. So, F-16? I have, seeing the data that I have been able to access, been convinced on the claim of bagging of F-16, but sans evidence, it is not a confirmation.

The insinuation that 01 x IAF pilot is being held by Pakistan as India did not claim a second pilot is not only laughable, but a downright dumb assumption, indicative of the intellectual ability of those who are holding the view.

India had more diplomatic traction to gain here (by claiming all Pilots if was true). So one can simply throw that out. Add to it, our media has a habit of butting in where it is not required to, so probability of the story being hidden is a laugh at best. Had there been another IAF pilot in your custody - the cat would have been out of the bag quite long back.

As for Mi-17, suggestion by Pakistani members of being downed by PAF is a joke. As for @Osiris claiming a blue on blue, if the gentleman has more data access than the IAF, then he may share it, because the FDR and preliminary indications (including information being passed in grapevine network on 27 Feb 2019 with me) suggest a technical fault with the helicopter. It was premised that perhaps the Indian AD had downed it, a presumption that the Court of Inquiry, conducted for every accident even in Pakistan Armed Forces, is also taking into consideration keeping in view the heightened state of alert at the time. That too, was found to be flimsy. No MANPADs were active in the area either. And anyone who has a bit of knowledge of forensics and understands the beveling resulting of a shaped projectile, can understand what occurred by looking at the picture of the tail segment.

The question then remains of what may have happened? Perhaps DG ISPR jumped the gun in claiming something that was not there? Or reacted presumptively to initial news of landing of pilots before identity could be ascertained?

if you are sure about three parachutes seen then you must be sensible enough to admit that it must be a twin seater indian jet as JFTs are single seater. F-16 Bs are twin seater but in air combat and even in air to ground role there is no role for the second pilot in F-16. the second seat is only for training purposes. PAF is not idiot to put two pilots in a plane just for fun. F-16 with single pilot performs all the roles and there is no requirement of a second pilot. even in a mirage 2000 i think second pilot is required for strike purpose and as it was interception mission for the mirages so i dont think it was mirage 2000 that got hit. that leaves behind su 30 which needs two pilots for carrying out full spectrum of missions and the way your PM and military leaders mentioned the absence of rafale in the combat proves that they have been seriously disappointed by su 30 getting locked and one jet crashing into ground.
BTW in the column you forget to mention another false claim of shooting down F-16 by a mig 21.
and what about the statement of your own media regarding su 30 shot down .
you have just proven to be nothing more then a so called intellectual biased loser who is trying to look good by twisting the facts in your own favour. your lies have been busted by pakistani, international and even your own experts. remember the video regarding the engine part of mig 21 which your media was trying to prove as that of F-16 but then your own expert busted the lie. at least it proved that there is one person in india who has some shame left in him.

 

[Mentee]

Hi,

The reaction what I wanted was---I did not get it---. I don't blame most of you guys---because it took me awhile to get to it---.

The issue here is all about the power positioning in the south china seas---. pakistan was just considered to be a stepping stone---an irksome neighbor living on the flanks---.

If the powers to be were successful in containing the chinese air power---as they thought they had---china would be done and dusted---.

But this scenario has made paradigm shift in what the chinese were expected to have and what they have in stock---.

@NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM @Hakikat ve Hikmet

Sir I had that thing in mind but couldn't say it due to the apprehension of k koi khach he na vj jy - - - - - - - someone is arm twisting paf to atleast buy the j10 c for the greater good, as Chinese hands are fairly tied in the south china sea - - - - - - - -

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Some information circles do mention that JF-17 did venture inside India but returned back after a merry ride along with Mirage-V's; it was the F-16's prowling near LOC which intercepted IAF and made all the kills.

Sir! That is a chut!a fake audio roaming around the whatsapp groups which contains sh!tty and faulty information which is brewing this story and it has no grounds.