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The Ultimate CSD Killer

I have a question. Why didn't Pakistan modify one of its existing SRBMs (Abdali or Ghaznavi) for delivering a tactical nuclear payload?? They do have considerable accuracy (~50m for the 300km range Ghaznavi) for a tactical nuclear strike.

If the answer is that a Nasr vehicle has a lower 'signature' than a normal BM one, it means that the other BMs could be too alarming for the internationals (US/Nato). Does this imply that Pakistan is prepared to lose its nukes to US/Nato in case of a serious conflict with India, and is instead preparing to possibly rely solely on tactical nuclear weapons?

Has there been any official usage described for this device by Pakistani forces..for e.g. the China killer? could it be to make it highly impossible for the US/NATO to fully disarm Pakistan fully in any eventuality? or this is also meant for other scenarios other than CSD too?


@Windjammer, there's not much going on with regards to Pakistan in defense matters other than this or the Ghauri launch so any commenting by Indians would seem to be a lot on one subject.
 
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That isn't what I pointed to ... You somehow hope to implement CSD on the mountain heights of LOC ? How exactly do you propose that your army initiates a mechanized offensive there ? Invented some new type of tanks ? :azn:

They know better if they have some plans like this.I posted an article few days ago referencing it.
 
Has there been any official usage described for this device by Pakistani forces..for e.g. the China killer? could it be to make it highly impossible for the US/NATO to fully disarm Pakistan in any eventuality? or this is also meant for other scenarios other than CSD too?

No, none other than "countering the emerging threats".
I think that thats what Pakistani military is trying to do here.
No, not for any other scenario than CSD.
 
No, none other than "countering the emerging threats".
I think that thats what Pakistani military is trying to do here.
No, not for any other scenario than CSD.

It seems it's solely intended to take out Indian advancing formations too, but you did raise a few doubts there, which I again think the other scenarios are highly unlikely too.
 
lsn't this whole idea of tactical nukes kinda counter productive, given India's no first use nuke policy?

All Pakistan will do is lower India's nuclear threshold if it ever were to use these tactical nukes. Imagine worst case scenario Pakistan fires a few Nasr's at Indian formations, and India obliterates all your cities in return.

I don't think the Pakistanis thought this one through.

As far as firing rapid salvos of short range nuke missiles, here's the Indian answer.

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Much ado about nothing :undecided:
 
@Windjammer, there's not much going on with regards to Pakistan in defense matters other than this or the Ghauri launch so any commenting by Indians would seem to be a lot on one subject.

It's not the reason but rather the nature of the comments.
 
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Wishful thinking , once again , huh ? Nothing better than I expect from your lot but just to try to wake you up " You aren't fighting a first generation or second generation warfare " to somehow catch the enemy by surprise , to defeat it leaving it in ruins and get off without " unacceptable damage " ... @notorious_eagle mentioned a worst case scenario for discussion not for little kids like you to understand and mention it ... Yes , everything is done , but yet you haven't dared cross the border after Pakistan became the nuclear power :lol:



All Hail ! :D

The play has been performed , applaud ! :lol: - Ancient Latin

Its wishful thinking from Pak fanboys that as soon Indian armed forces enter the Pakistani border instead of using flares for signelling they use NASAR with nukes.

If Pakistan decided to use nuke on Indian troops that will automaticly means that all the conventional resistance from the pak side is lost and PA , PAF and not to mention PN all are in ruins.

By then IA/IAF/IN raining bombs over the Pak fortifications and ofcourse all the objectives for the preemptive strike has been made and unilateral cease fire will be declared from Indian side.

I don't think then Pak will be able to use the nukes on the forces who are returning from its country.

Keep NASAR for Islamic terrorists , there you might use it in real.
 
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I dont understand why Pakistan would reduce the nuke threshold to such an extent as to carry it into an active battlefield when PA and PAF is quite evenly matched in numbers, armor, platforms and nukes to IA and IAF capabilities?

And, PA can very capably hold off IA advances into Pakistan till as such time that cease fire negotiations are deployed, though PA and PAF's offensive capabilities have reduced.

Can someone please explain this?
 
:lol: pakistan should invent something like a "Drone killer"

which is a reality.. and CSD is only in the mind os pakistanis... :tongue:

and if u wish to see the ultimate pakistan killer , i can show u that also ...:lol:
 
@Windjammer

I wouldn't call NASR a CSD killer, i would rather use the words 'insurance policy'. First of all, for NASR to be deployed the IA brigades would have to take out a huge bite out of PA's Armour, literally render it toothless against the advancing IA Armoured Formations. Looking at the current balance of forces, this seems highly unlikely. In fact, IA dominating local area battles seem highly unlikely.

Punjab serves as a natural impediment against advancing Armour. The topography, environment, vegetation and canals serve as a natural barrier for any advancing force and a wonderful force multiplier for the defending force. Thar will likely witness much more fluid battles, this is why PA has deployed AK's which cancels out the T90S. The most frightening scenario was when the IA purchased the Smerch system(40), they could batter any mass formations off PA from mass distances. Now PA has purchased the A-100 system which provides an automatic counter battery to the Smerch system and PA is raising 42 regiments, couple that with our advantage in SP artillery, PA has enough fire power to pound any advancing Indian Armour right at the border. Couple that with PA's Frontier Units which are much more mobile and well setup with their ATGM Hell Holes, IA advancing Armour will be facing attrition right from the start. So even before IA Armour comes into contact with PA's Armour, they will have already faced constant pounding backed up from a vulnerable supply line which is always going to be under threat of flanking and facing heavy pounding from PA's Artillery.

If i were a betting man, i wouldn't bet much on PA using the NASR as PA's conventional firepower is strong enough to rout any advancing Indian Armour, but its always good to have an insurance policy.

India is not in a position to take on any successful CSD against pakistan in it's current scenario. CSD is not an offensive doctrine to begin with, it is just an effective method for faster deployment of the troops. IBG incursion mandates, air interdiction as precursor to any ground activity, and pre cursor to air interdiction is cruise missile attacks on c4I assets.

The above is the biggest chink in the Armour of indian military right now, there aren't enough of cruise missiles inducted, there aren't enouch air launched standoff missiles, and nearly 150-200 of the ground strike platforms of IAF like the mig 27M and the Jaguars mandate an air superiority which is not achievable in the needed time frame.

CSD's and the concept of highly mobile IBG's (light and heavy ) are actually derived (imo) from armored brigades of the ww2 africa conquest where, the light brigades would link up and separate to control certain areas. The idea is to divide the big rolling Armour in multiple pronged tentacles which would threaten different assets of PA, Now doesn't that increases the head aches of PA,

What ever a Nasr can achieve a small tactical nuke dropped from a mirage 3 can do the same in battle conditions, hence the concept of tactical nukes on forwarding troops is not a new one, and not a blinder that suddenly PA has fielded which has IA planner sleepless.The heavy IBG's will only roll with proper air interdiction, plus they will have adequate CAS cover from IAF to trace 50-80 kms ahead for PA assets.

As for tactical nuke missile is concerned, what makes pakistanis believe, that in case of pakistani firing one on IA, will not derrive the same on pakistani armour and command centers, agreed you can fire your battlefield tactical nuke on an indian formation, but with the size of pakistan, a similar response on pakistani airbase or a command center is not very difficult for IA to achieve. If pakistan is willing to deliver a tactical nuke I hope they have sufficient planning to absorb the same response, the only difference is this scenario is in pakistani territory, IA will have a very target rich zone to play with.

I'm in now way suggesting that CSD/IBG will run through pakistani defences like knife through butter, imo Indian damages might be 10 times what pakistan will sustain in the process, but assuming what Indian army will do, or doubting the will of of the Indian military has been a folly for which pakistan has paid dearly in the past. The same attitude emanates from pakistani members here, when they say, we will hit you with a tactical nuke and your army will just roll over and die, and rest will pack their bags and go back home and watch saas bahu serials.

Planning of the conflict holds the major key here, Unless India has more strike platforms, and area defence fighters like LCA mk2 is completely developed which will set free the rest of the strike platforms, IAF will not recommend any high attrition conflict. With nearly DARE III upgrades in Mig 27 and Darin II upgrades on jaguar pending, ground attack platforms are not in their best shape CAS will call for mki/m2000 platforms, blunting the main strike and air dom missions. I dont see India is a position to take any offensive in current defence plan.

In the end whichever side has better planning and better redundancies built into their command and control to absorb the initial damage sustained will have the edge. I dont think India still has the assets needed to sucessfully pull off any high intensity air/ground operations for next 5 years.

In case of conflict due to Mumbai styled operations or others which calls for retaliation, In current strength the best option would be a naval embargo. That in my opinion will be a much sustainable operation, in current strength, the biggest disparity among three forces in India and pakistan lies in the navy hence india has the maximum leverage at sea, and should effectively use it.
 
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6th April 1998, Pakistan for the first time test fires it's Ghauri-1 intermediate range missile......India has no answer except carrying out nuclear tests a few weeks later......the rest is history.....no guessing who got trolled big time. :rofl:

Hasn't pakistan consistently outspent India, in terms of defence expenditure, as a percentage of GDP?! Also, isn't it you guys who have gone to the IMF with a begging bowl about 3-4 times?! Are you still sure that pak trolled india?!
 
True that. But what makes you think that will be India's "pro-forma approach"? Otherwise my own conviction is Nukes are just the "Ultimate Cyanide Pill".
But the scenario that you have sketched above; if it merits a nuclear riposte from Pakistan; why should it be TNWs, that too on one's own soil? Why not a Strategic Response? Because that is where it will lead to anyway by default. Or is there another reason for creating and mobilising "sub-kiloton" nuclear weapon?


In the hope that India does not escalate the conflict and quietly falls back. If Pakistan goes out with a strategic response out right, that pretty much guarantees a MAD scenario. If Pakistan attacks with a tactical nuke on her own soil against an invading force, their is a strong possibility that India will not escalate the issue. Thus, this is a very tricky and a very complex scenario and i certainly pray to God that we don't find out each other's nuclear red lines through force. So far, both sides have been very mature with their conduct and never have we reached a point where the orders were given out to start assembling the nukes from storage component form.

@rockstar. Please read Sandy's post, it pretty much highlights all the issues that have been raised regarding CSD, certainly saved me a lot of time :azn:

I have read the CDS in quite some detail, thus for the enrichment of this debate, i will speak from an impartial point of view.

India is not in a position to take on any successful CSD against pakistan in it's current scenario. CSD is not an offensive doctrine to begin with, it is just an effective method for faster deployment of the troops. IBG incursion mandates, air interdiction as precursor to any ground activity, and pre cursor to air interdiction is cruise missile attacks on c4I assets.

All good and noble objectives, but they are still punitive strikes and nothing more. PA will still retain the capability to regroup and continue to post a major threat to IA. Unless IBG's lead deep incursions, capture strategic territory and force the PA to slug it out, the objectives in my opinion simply fall short. Anything short of destruction of a huge chunk of PA's War-fighting Capabilities is equivalent to a loss in my opinion.

CSD's and the concept of highly mobile IBG's (light and heavy ) are actually derived (imo) from armored brigades of the ww2 africa conquest where, the light brigades would link up and separate to control certain areas. The idea is to divide the big rolling Armour in multiple pronged tentacles which would threaten different assets of PA, Now doesn't that increases the head aches of PA,

I was under the assumption that the CDS was more based on Desert Storm. Highly mobile units operating in complete network centric environment lead by independent brigades under the command of very capable officers operating under the umbrella of complete air dominance wrecking havoc on the enemy.

The problem with light brigades splitting from heavy brigades in our part of the world is a bit different compared to the fluid environment offered in African Deserts. Our part of the world is highly dense and very static especially in Kashmir and Punjab. The only place where fluid battles can be fought is in Thar, but the problem is Thar is not huge and PA's Frontier Units are well dug in. So i am not sure if the concept of splitting light brigades from heavy can be applied to our part of the world.

What ever a Nasr can achieve a small tactical nuke dropped from a mirage 3 can do the same in battle conditions, hence the concept of tactical nukes on forwarding troops is not a new one, and not a blinder that suddenly PA has fielded which has IA planner sleepless.The heavy IBG's will only roll with proper air interdiction, plus they will have adequate CAS cover from IAF to trace 50-80 kms ahead for PA assets.

For arguments sake, lets say that IBG's have penetrated 80km into main land Pakistan. Now What?

Are they just going to sit there and do nothing? IA's supply lines will be under constant bombardment as PA's artillery or even MBRLS will be active, IA will need to further penetrate to cancel these hindrances out. As the IA sits down and starts setting up camp, PA will most definitely regroup and would be looking to launch a counter attack against Indian IBG's which will be exhausted and most definitely short of supplies because tanks are big and they need a lot of fuel to go forward. IBG's will need to continue fighting flanking and encirclement battles in order to stay alive. Thus, this idea of penetration of 80 km does not sound feasible to me, its either go big or go home. Either go all the way or don't go at all, these half attempts won't make much difference.

As for tactical nuke missile is concerned, what makes pakistanis believe, that in case of pakistani firing one on IA, will not derrive the same on pakistani armour and command centers, agreed you can fire your battlefield tactical nuke on an indian formation, but with the size of pakistan, a similar response on pakistani airbase or a command center is not very difficult for IA to achieve. If pakistan is willing to deliver a tactical nuke I hope they have sufficient planning to absorb the same response, the only difference is this scenario is in pakistani territory, IA will have a very target rich zone to play with.

Let me put it to you this way, PA will fire a tactical nuke on an invading Indian Force inside Pakistani territory. If the IA decides to fire a tactical nuke inside Pakistani territory, PA would be well within their rights to escalate it by firing a small ranged (300km) battlefield ballistic missile on IA's Brigade Command and Control. There is no stopping to where this escalation might lead, i pray to God we don't have to find it out.

In case of conflict due to Mumbai styled operations or others which calls for retaliation, In current strength the best option would be a naval embargo. That in my opinion will be a much sustainable operation, in current strength, the biggest disparity among three forces in India and pakistan lies in the navy hence india has the maximum leverage at sea, and should effectively use it.

True, a naval embargo might be feasible but Pakistan can up the ante with PAF launching Harpoon II's at IN's vessels. What will IN do if merchant vessels belonging to China or the US are heading towards Karachi, will the IN board these vessels, tow them to Indian Harbour and try the crew in Prize Courts or not?

The problem with conflict is, there is never really any lever that can contain the conflict to your choosing. The other side always has the option to up the ante and your calculations go out of the window. The Germans and the French certainly thought that they would be home by Christmas during World War 1, we all know the rest. If India wants to effectively punish Pakistan, she will have to go all the way and stop thinking from the prism of punitive strikes.
 
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Its wishful thinking from Pak fanboys that as soon Indian armed forces enter the Pakistani border instead of using flares for signelling they use NASAR with nukes.

If Pakistan decided to use nuke on Indian troops that will automaticly means that all the conventional resistance from the pak side is lost and PA , PAF and not to mention PN all are in ruins.

By then IA/IAF/IN raining bombs over the Pak fortifications and ofcourse all the objectives for the preemptive strike has been made and unilateral cease fire will be declared from Indian side.

I don't think then Pak will be able to use the nukes on the forces who are returning from its country.

Keep NASAR for Islamic terrorists , there you might use it in real.

Actually its wishful thinking of Indian armchair Generals that Pakistan cant defend itself in a conventional war for a significant period of time and therefore would resort to nuclear weapons as soon as the first IA soldier crosses the border , such isn't the case ... We have more than enough to defend the motherland in case of any aggression with conventional weapons ... Nuclear ones are reserved for special cases ...

Not necessarily , no ... Strategic nuclear weapons are used as measure of last resort , Tactical nuclear weapons serve as a warning to the invaders that a threshold has been crossed/is being crossed or has a high probability of being crossed ... It isn't the end game or mutually assured destruction , that will depend upon the adversary's next course of action , whether it wants to continue the duel to the point of no return or retreats and saves the lives of billions of people ... It doesn't mean that all conventional resistance is lost because these thresholds are multi faceted and not as simple as you think ... We just have too much at stake because of our geographic disadvantage hence the lower thresholds ...

Yeah a job well done like always ! :D But you still haven't explained why the Indians haven't dared cross the border since we started developing nuclear weapons ? I mean you have mobilized and backed off in '87 and '02 ... :azn: Face the PAF at the skies first to get those objectives met ... Do you think we will be waiting for your unilateral ceasefire or somehow be ready to be invaded and welcome the aggressors at the border ? :lol:

Reserve some for RSS terrorists too , dont associate a particular religion with terrorism next time , because there are a plenty in your country too ... and its Nasr ...

If Pak has to use NASAR then holy cow full of hot air will remain untouched !!

No one survives a full scale nuclear war ... So , thinking of living to see the other day after such a conflict is yet another wishful thinking by you ...
 
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