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The Thorn in the Garden | Terrorism in Indo-Pak relations.

As no one in India cares what we are or what we have to say then I really should not waste my time answering you. It seems that now we first have to deal with inflated egos to be able to argue properly. When that happens, do mention me and we would exchange ideas sanely.

This is what you said:

We are here since 1947 and we will be here no matter what; it seems Indians no longer wish peace nor progress unless in circumstances that are best for both nations and the region; perhaps, due the 'wounded' egos a section of your people have. Still, we'll be the bad guy then so be it

I'm assuming the word "unless" is an error. You said about being the bad guy & commented about Indians not wanting peace or progress. Unless you can specify what you meant by "bad guy", it is fair to assume that you suggesting that you are would be doing "whatever" in Kashmir or elsewhere w.r.t. India and that is a threat placed on the table. I said that we don't much care for such threats.

Btw, if you are in for a debate, do so with appearing condescending. Silly. Pointless remarks about egos etc won't help in a debate. I'm not here to give you an opinion of your choice. Deal with it and move on. I would consider myself open enough to hear any case that you might put forwards, doesn't mean I will necessarily agree with it. If you choose to engage further, stick with the argument.
 
Slav, judging from the response we have over here, I think Pakistan should start planning a contingency plan against future Indian aggression.

Th

secur,mate....
Unless Kashmir issue will not be resolved and both nations will not realize that except peace talk,there is no other way left,till then we can't imagine of any stable relationship.
This fact is due to the reason that India and Pakistan are haunted and chased by past experiences and have strong impression of insecurity and consider their staying together peacefully as impossible due to past battles,proxy wars,operations which they have launched/waged against each other,yet still after having a series of warfare Pakistan and India got nothing except 'formation of Bangladesh' and 'half of Kashmir' while rest is still occupied by Indians.
This fact cannot be denied either that both countries got desired results due to 'proxy wars' or 'cold wars' such as Mukti Bahini or Mujhadin in case of Kashmir.
So,we must face it that since both countries are nuclear power and consider each other as a threa,thus they cannot come on single plateform to have serious conferences as they consider each other responsible for their instablity and recognize each other as threat,currently Indian media has admitted 'Operation deep strike' to give massive/maximum damage to Pakistan.
Inshallah I will present my detailed analysis.
@jaibi,well written mate.
 
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That would happen through negotiations, mate. That's the point focus on peace and try to achieve a workable solution. Here the focus is opposite. This is called dynamic dysfunction in organizations: we keep thinking at the same level and put more effort in the same problem the same way.

That's has been done many times, the talks focusing on achieving a workable solution. Hasn't go anyone anywhere except during the 2004-2007 period where Musharraf-Vajpayee & then Musharraf-MMS were close to achieving something. That was first lost because Musharraf lost control, then with the PPP trying to walk back from the understanding reached & Kayani withdrawing support for the Musharraf idea. That pretty much ended Indian interest in getting a broad solution, the realisation that any agreement reached would simply be disowned by whoever followed in government within Pakistan made the idea unworkable.

Which is why I have asked any Pakistani here to put forward & discuss a particular solution. No one seems to want to do that, preferring to simply stick with the "let's talk" routine. What s the Pakistani idea for a solution for Siachen, one that might see Indians agree on the logic? Or on the Kashmir question? Why should India engage Pakistan seriously? What is the aim of any engagement specifically? Questions that don't see many answers.

Your prejudices do not spill over into my work:

:lol: How can they? Only yours can. And they do.
 
Care to explain why?

....

This is the U.N. resolution argument(I would assume). This is what simply won't fly. Inflated Egos? :lol: This is a talking shop. Nothing more.
Great to see you've taken such things in so much pride. I met another Indian who did the same. If you want something to be in focus I'd suggest putting it in bold, but this is a Pakistani's suggestion, so you won't listen.

I told you and @Dillinger that the article was not about what the possible solution is. Read the title again of the artice: Pakistan India and Terrorism: Can there be progress, which should have been a hint about what the article's intention is. The progress part dealt in why there is impediment to a certain bath of diplomatic normalancy and that would make peace a viable option.

Read the bolded part, slowly, like you advised Secur, there's a problem in your being able to follow a Pakistani's sentence structure.

Had I meant to suggest solutions I would have written India, Pakistan and Kashmir: Possible Solutions, yet I did not. Can you guess why?

You want Indian approvals? Mate, check out the literature on challenger states, Pakistan is the most successful challenger state in the modern world. You are foolish to think you would dominate us and haggle any solution on top of us. Any solution that would come would be by consensus otherwise do what you want; we'll meet you on every front and go toe to toe with you.

Good that you are disabused of you belief in whatever sort of Indian you thought only existed (pointless, I could do easily do that too. Argue the point). I asked for you to offer up a solution, you put up the above as a solution put on the table. I case you read my post, I asked for a workable solution, one that might meet with some Indian approval & also as to what Pakistan brought on to the table in any such discussion, beyond stated demands.
 
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History flaw, more interpretation than facts.

That's has been done many times, the talks focusing on achieving a workable solution. Hasn't go anyone anywhere except during the 2004-2007 period where Musharraf-Vajpayee & then Musharraf-MMS were close to achieving something. That was first lost because Musharraf lost control, then with the PPP trying to walk back from the understanding reached & Kayani withdrawing support for the Musharraf idea. That pretty much ended Indian interest in getting a broad solution, the realisation that any agreement reached would simply be disowned by whoever followed in government within Pakistan made the idea unworkable.
Again, coming to the table must be mutual. You don't want it? Fine, enjoy things as they are.

Which is why I have asked any Pakistani here to put forward & discuss a particular solution. No one seems to want to do that, preferring to simply stick with the "let's talk" routine. What s the Pakistani idea for a solution for Siachen, one that might see Indians agree on the logic? Or on the Kashmir question? Why should India engage Pakistan seriously? What is the aim of any engagement specifically? Questions that don't see many answers.

I shift through piles of articles written with prejudice, I know well how to sort it out. That's what was meant. Anyho', you couldn't even read the intent of the article, how can you be able to detect any content as it was meant?

:lol: How can they? Only yours can. And they do.

Last post @Bang Galore , nothing productive coming out of this engagement.
 
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Care to explain why?

The U.N solution? That is no longer accepted by India. Not after the Shimla agreement. Not after the Musharraf talks. That was why he dropped asking for it. You did ask for a solution by consensus right, this doesn't fly.

Great to see you've taken such things in so much pride. I met another Indian who did the same.

No idea what you are going on about. Any opinion that doesn't agree with you is because of "pride"...?

If you want something to be in focus I'd suggest putting it in bold, but this is a Pakistani's suggestion, so you won't listen.

Juvenile.

I told you and @Dillinger that the article was not about what the possible solution is. Read the title again of the artice: Pakistan India and Terrorism: Can there be progress, which should have been a hint about what the article's intention is. The progress part dealt in why there is impediment to a certain bath of diplomatic normalancy and that would make peace a viable option.

I did not ask why the article didn't suggest solutions. I asked why Pakistanis, including you, shy away from offering up any. I have, except at one point, not made any direct comment on the article itself. It is a view and I appreciate reading it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Read the bolded part, slowly, like you advised Secur, there's a problem in your being able to follow a Pakistani's sentence structure.

I read. Maybe you should now follow that advice & read even more slowly. There is no reason to believe anywhere that I suggested that the article was anything more than it was nor did I suggest that it carried the burden of offering a solution. Are you suggesting that there should be no discussion further?

Had I meant to suggest solutions I would have written India, Pakistan and Kashmir: Possible Solutions, yet I did not. Can you guess why?

Read above.

You want Indian approvals? Mate, check out the literature on challenger states, Pakistan is the most successful challenger state in the modern world. You are foolish to think you would dominate us and haggle any solution on top of us. Any solution that would come would be by consensus otherwise do what you want; we'll meet you on every front and go toe to toe with you.]


Err...India is a status quo state. We need nothing from you(on the core issues), you are the one who needs to discuss Kashmir, Siachen, water issues etc. As I said & you really need to take a breath and read what I posted earlier, "the solution lies in realising that there can be no solution". We are not interested in dominating & achieving a solution, we already have one that suits us just fine. The rest of your post is just standard chest puffing & has no relevance. Btw, consensus does mean "Indian approval", unless your idea of consensus mirrors your idea of a debate, i.e. everyone agreeing with your point of view.

Last post @Bang Galore , nothing productive coming out of this engagement.

Fair enough. Thanks for your time.
 
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A mixing up here but I shall answer.

The discrimination against Muslims is your internal matter, yet there is no denial of it, in the article that was suppose to be a more generalised explanation, about the terrorism issue as a whole.

I have stayed neutral to both sides and explained Pakistan's side which does not get media representation nor academic voice. Why is it so is another issue completely yet it is that way.

Pakistan has placed forth a workable solution of honouring the aspirations of the Kashmiri people; the Indian rebuttal of Pakistan withdrawing troops does not stand well as if it is done so then it should be mutual and simultaneous.

Regarding Pakistan's position there is a misconception of India and Pakistan having equal shares in the problem and the solution that is not the case, as the article argues. If you think that was a plea then you are wrong, that is a fact. Your people do not want to listen to that nor see it then that's another issue.

We are here since 1947 and we will be here no matter what; it seems Indians no longer wish peace nor progress unless in circumstances that are best for both nations and the region; perhaps, due the 'wounded' egos a section of your people have. Still, we'll be the bad guy then so be it.

It may be an incorrect assumption, as far as I am concerned you are not from "Kashmir"
In this presumption I would like to say that you then speak as an outsider. The point being that your said views may have a national leaning.

Kashmir is solved ! (please note Indian members)

Now the wound of Kashmir continues to fester due to the constant poking by the Pakistani state. On the Indian side we are tying to apply antiseptic(think what you may) and bandage.

If Pakistan wants its wound to fester and get infected it is up to them.

In saying that; the elite in Pakistan can continue to "solve" Kashmir and the hegemon in India will be rubbing their hands with glee at your solutions.

I know my post will not make an iota of difference here (Precisely why I posted it)
 
There is no doubt that this is the best analysis I have read written by a Pakistani but it is still no where close to what India expects from Pakistan.
 
The only practical solution is to make the LoC as international border. Most sane Pakistanis agree on this but they fear the general Pakistani public opinion will go against them if they present it in front of their people since there are strong elements which were created to fight for Kashmir who has bigger stakes.
 
Some inaccuracies and strange comments in the article stand out. I couldn't keep them to myself.
For the moment let us forego of other key points that were raised and focus on the key term: ‘State-sponsored terrorism’, the Indian side kept repeating the statement over and over again, ‘Pakistan is the world’s epicentre for terrorism.’ This phenomena of labelling Pakistan as the epicentre of world’s terrorism has an international impact but in my view it is the greatest hurdle for India and Pakistan to progress as states in terms of diplomacy. This issue is even bigger, now, than the Kashmir dispute even though, arguably, Kashmir was its birthplace.
The birthplace was partition. Kashmir joined in a little later and is something which both people cannot do away with locking themselves up in different rooms. At least Pakistan is hell-bent on changing the status-quo.
The Indian side argues that Pakistan directly or indirectly hosts and trains the terrorist activities that take place on its soil(Blank, 2003). There is proof of this claim, certainly, in the nation-state paradigm(Fair, 2004; Riedel, 2008). Many terrorists have claimed to be Pakistanis or supported by Pakistan.


For India this just puts a full stop on the issue, unless and until Pakistan stops harbouring terrorism there can be no talks, there can be no progress.
On the contrary, India attempted talks multiple times in 1998(ruined by Kargil), 2008(ruined by 26/11. Pak foreign minister was actually in India at that time) and now.

It should also be noted that in the 21st century India has repeatedly projected herself as an emerging power and her rows with Pakistan and more importantly her failed attempts to completely restrain Pakistan has been a problem.(Luce, 2010)
Where are the attempts to restrain Pakistan? How much does India focus on Pakistan when it does not come directly to its interests like Kashmir?

Understandably Pakistan has been raised on a defensive position and as such she sees herself as a lighter but meaner boxer. This holds true for all nations in the similar position: adapting an aggressive approach to defend themselves(Dixit, 2003; Ganguly, 2001; Kumar, 1992; Philip, 2005).
Understandable.
Firstly, India needs to realise why Pakistan has proxies, it sees itself on a disadvantaged position and India has taken advantage of that, though rightfully or wrongfully, India is hardly a neighbour one would invite over, for Pakistan, at least. The Indian position that it is the ‘stronger’ party and should be able to have an upper hand causes this dilemma.
India has taken advantage of that once in 1971, but that was after 1965. Pakistan never acted like it was at a disadvantage. If the state narrative of Pakistan is that without Kashmir, Pakistan cannot be, then it is not India's problem.
See, Pakistan has never denied India is the stronger party, it just states that Pakistan too is a party. Pakistan is not playing to win, she is playing to exist! To many Indians this seems to be a hard perception to get. Yet, it has very far reaching consequences for the region.
It is a hard perception to get for Indians because Pakistan never acted like it is playing to exist. Whether in 1965, 1971 or in Kargil. It has always been because they have serious problems assessing their own ability.
The exact situation also exists in the Arab-Israeli conflict, earlier in their history as Isreal was being formed the Israelis realised that the local populace might not be as accepting as they thought, political reasoning aside, the Israelis first line of defence was to ally Arab tribes with them along with Deuez tribes; these were their proxies(Abu-Lughod, 1971). Yet, today, Israel is the target of proxies and here is why: Israel is no more the challenger state.(Paul, 2006)
At the other end of the spectrum, Pakistan remains the challenger state(Huth, 1996; Paul, 2006).
There is no need of explaining so deeply why a weaker rival uses proxies. It is because they cannot stand a face-off head on.
This creates a problem, often Indians see the Pakistani military the direct threat to her stability but historically, the Pakistani military regimes have enjoyed better relations with Indian regimes than their civilian counterparts.(Ziring, 1997)
Isn't that because their word has more weight than anyone else's in Pakistan?
The Pakistani military wants India to allow enough concessions to be able to think that they can exist and it also plays a part in Pakistan’s politics; historically, people have viewed the civilian governments, with some justification, as incompetent (Nawaz, 2008, Ziring, 1987; 1997) and therefore unable to properly handle diplomacy properly.(Ziring, 1997)
This is pure BS. What they want is J&K and possibly the overthrow of the Indian state as a domino effect. If all they want is to exist, they could just live with the status-quo or better even formalize it. Why throw up $H!t every once in a while? Any Pakistanis agree with this theory that Pakistan is fighting for survival?
For Pakistan the proxies were the ace in the deck and rightfully so, the Indian side, besides their international image, has taken full advantage of Pakistan’s fissures. It can even be argued that the first real ‘proxies’ were introduced by India as the Mukti Bahini in 1971 (Groh, 2010) (Groh’s definition of proxies). Pakistan’s infamous Mujahideen were not directly controlled by the military and there was weariness due to their presence, especially in the early years of her inception(Nawaz, 2008).
The author forgets the proxies of 1948 or of 1965. Or is he conveniently using a definition that avoids this label for earlier Pakistani proxies just on the pretext that they are pathetic at organization?

[/QUOTE]
On a slight detour I would like to explain briefly that the Muslim populace of the world has perceived the various political discriminations and oppressions against them as an ‘in-group’ threat and due to the mass media there has been considerable projection of the threat which is perceived as a large threat to identity and there rests a responsibility in both the Muslim and International community to address this problem, it is not one sided. The identity formation of various Muslim populations has been fraught with trauma and no milestones (successful dealing with an identity crisis).
[/QUOTE]
They actually had milestones back in Nasser's and Mossadegh's era. But all the leaders who advocated a workable identity were either toppled by the USA or by the Wahabi funded agents. Now all the money is bent on one thing: to build an identity based on and solely on Islam. They are not succeeding, that is why it is a nightmare for them. If it succeeds, it would be a nightmare for the rest of the people.

For any society to be able to deal with militancy it should know that it allows for the militancy to exist and must address these problems. For India successful resolution of the discrimination against Muslims and for Pakistan successful development of FATA, political disputed in Balochistan, would ensure an end to militancy regardless of the other state’s intention and that is not dependent on the other state.
WTF?? I wonder when the author can certify that India has resolved the discrimination against muslims?
For there to be progress India needs to realise that Pakistan has much more to lose and has political justifications to be allowed more concessions from India. India is not under as much pressure as Pakistan and arguing about it does not help, this is a fact. Pakistan is not in a position to allow concessions as it has more to lose in the bargain and needs more to be able to survive whereas India wants to thrive, those two are completely different dimensions and thus India needs to come down on Pakistan’s point of view. Indian efforts to pressurise Pakistan further, no matter how justified, make things worse.
There should be no reward for false bravado, supremacist narratives, false histories and inflated egos built up by state apparatus among its own people. I believe India should not give any concessions to Pakistan on the points of conflicts. Concessions in trade and other aspects is fine.
 
I have a question for fundamentalist Pakistanis like @Zarvan, and other terrorism "soft" supporters. Serious question, no trolling please. No name calling, yindoo, mozzie type stuff.

The question is this.

What do you expect to achieve by terrorism?

On our soil as well as your own?

Do you think eventually you will get what you want through fear?

Do you really know what fear is? When 1.2 billion and hopefully another 180 million finally lose their patience and come for you?

Will you find a place to hide before we find you and make you taste the justice and fury of a blood thirsty mob?
 
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I have a question for fundamentalist Pakistanis like @Zarvan, and other terrorism "soft" supporters. Serious question, no trolling please. No name calling, yindoo, mozzie type stuff.

The question is this.

What do you expect to achieve by terrorism?

On our soil as well as your own?

Do you think eventually you will get what you want through fear?

Do you really know what fear is? When 1.2 billion and hopefully another 180 million finally lose their patience and come for you?

Will you find a place to hide before we find you and make you taste the justice and fury of a blood thirsty mob?
First their is no such thing as terrorism for you they would be terrorists for us they can and are Kashmiri freedom fighters secondly when Mujahideen attack soldiers they don't attack them for fun they attack them to kill them Sir secondly as long as Kashmir is free this attacks will continue Sir and this will only put Indians under pressure before the major war yes fear among Indian soldiers before final assault which would remind Indians who were Ghaznavi and Ghauri and what they used to do Indians same things on larger scale would be repeated soon and Mr same so called huge population was ruled by hundred of years by Muslims than British so we know what you are Sir and finally who is hiding after every attack you try to create atmosphere of war and than you back off we are waiting for the WAR Sir because we love death more than you love life Sir
1383200_743718265654792_245441565_n.jpg
 
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First their is no such thing as terrorism for you they would be terrorists for us they can and are Kashmiri freedom fighters secondly when Mujahideen attack soldiers they don't attack them for fun they attack them to kill them Sir secondly as long as Kashmir is free this attacks will continue Sir and this will only put Indians under pressure before the major war yes fear among Indian soldiers before final assault which would remind Indians who were Ghaznavi and Ghauri and what they used to do Indians same things on larger scale would be repeated soon and Mr same so called huge population was ruled by hundred of years by Muslims than British so we know what you are Sir and finally who is hiding after every attack you try to create atmosphere of war and than you back off we are waiting for the WAR Sir because we love death more than you love life Sir
1383200_743718265654792_245441565_n.jpg

@Zarvan sir ji. according to your this post, than no need of such kinda article. i support your idea of war. than why pakistan trying to peace talks. you must promote war openly but not from behind. it will be better to settle once otherthan dailyfights. and plz remember terrorism will harm more you than us.
 
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@Zarvan sir ji. according to your this post, than no need of such kinda article. i support your idea of war. than why pakistan trying to peace talks. you must promote war openly but not from behind. it will be better to settle once otherthan dailyfights. and plz remember terrorism will harm more you than us.
some of our dumb leaders think they can have peace with India let them try and fail miserably
 
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