The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[maithil]

But F22 and F35 are 2 totally different types of fighters, FGFA and AMCA differ only in size, the early reports talked even about the same capabilities like SC, TVC and so on, so where is the gain?

More A2G weapons? Doubtful, Pak Fa has long weapon bays that should be able to carry even some A2G missiles like the X-58USHKE anti-radar missile and of course guided bombs.

Is it cost-effective? No, with twin engines and the size of an F18SH maybe, it belongs to the heavier medium class fighters.

Will it be the workhorse of IAF, with lower numbers of FGFA for air superiority? No, at least 250 Pak Fa / FGFA are sure right now, 270 MKIs will stay in service till 2030, or longer. Another 250 - 300 LCA and MMRCA will be inducted too, so it's doubtful that AMCA will come in way bigger numbers, like F35.


Now consider a stealth UCAV like Aura in comparison!

It is a single engine aircaft, with no pilot, no radar, AAMS, just geared for low RCS and strikes, especially in high risk strike missions. It is clearly cheaper to develop and operate, offers clearly different roles to FGFA, or the real workhorses of the fleet (LCA, MMRCA, MKI).

IAF lacks a real need, or role for AMCA, because there are too many other types of similar size, roles, which will remain in service for decades.

I concur--only way the AMCA can be used is used for SEAD... make it something like GROWLER --for this if we need to take help from israel then also no problem.

A stealth growler will be a real asset to any AF..

 

[brahmastra]

frankly speaking, I doubt DRDO's ability to make this aircraft by 2025.
btw, I will be happiest person on earth if they prove me wrong.

 

[soaringphnx]

frankly speaking, I doubt DRDO's ability to make this aircraft by 2025.
btw, I will be happiest person on earth if they prove me wrong.

Do you feel that way because of the problems faced by LCA? The LCA had many delays because it was the first time anything like this was attempted in India. But HAL and DRDO has gained valuable experience from the LCA project and the infrastructure for the AMCA project is already in existance. We won't have to start from scratch for the AMCA as many of the components it needs is already developed for the LCA or is in development. Now the Indian defence industry is not what it was when the LCA program started. So, I think there is a fair chance for meeting the deadline. Delays if any will be minimal.

 

[Guynextdoor]

frankly speaking, I doubt DRDO's ability to make this aircraft by 2025.
btw, I will be happiest person on earth if they prove me wrong.

I think they'll pull it off. Composite tech is well established with us, so is design and aerodynamics- everything people, equipment, software packages etc. AESA Radar is on for LCA a parallel track for AMCA is not inconceivable. Current kaveri's probably ok for the prototype but may need work for final AMCA. Else we can fly prototypes with some other engine. We've worked on avianioncs, radar & weapon integration etc. AND have a good 10 yrs to get this up. Been working on stealth for over twenty years now. The FBW will be an adaptation/built up version of existing LCA systems. None of this will be built up from scratch.
Shouldn't be a problem.

 

[gambit]

I have a query. Even though I am not aware of aeronautics, could someone here tell me why the wings are so short and the fuel tanks so small? This would severely hamper the fighter's range and considering your geography, you will need fighters that are capable of an average of at least 4,000-5,000 Km combat range.

You mean the externals?

Drop tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The primary disadvantage with drop tanks is that they impose a drag penalty on the aircraft carrying them. External fuel tanks will also increase the moment of inertia, thereby reducing roll rates for air combat maneuvers.

Moment of inertia translate into simple language mean resistance to change, either to initiate a maneuver or to stop a maneuver.

A rule of thumb is that only about half the capacity of a streamlined drop tank actually goes towards increasing the aircraft's overall range, the rest going to overcome the added drag and weight of the tank itself.

Determination for external fuel tank size/capacity is quite complex if the need is to have as many of one's inventory capable of using a certain size. Given the calculus above, too small and the tank design itself is worthless. We cannot opine with any degree of certainty from photos alone if a tank size/capacity is 'too small' or 'too large'.

 

[CONNAN]

I think they'll pull it off. Composite tech is well established with us, so is design and aerodynamics- everything people, equipment, software packages etc. AESA Radar is on for LCA a parallel track for AMCA is not inconceivable. Current kaveri's probably ok for the prototype but may need work for final AMCA. Else we can fly prototypes with some other engine. We've worked on avianioncs, radar & weapon integration etc. AND have a good 10 yrs to get this up. Been working on stealth for over twenty years now. The FBW will be an adaptation/built up version of existing LCA systems. None of this will be built up from scratch.
Shouldn't be a problem.

but the problem is till now we dont have a crediable engine

 

[Guynextdoor]

but the problem is till now we dont have a crediable engine

Therefore I qualified my statements about the engine. But a project like this will not hinge on the engines alone. There are sooo many other things that we need to get right. The others being- design, composites, stealth, radar- we aren't new to any of these. Contrast it with LCA
- Composites- go out, tearn, put together a team, test & understand different materials and structures, master design (we already have most of these things in place). Get 'cabinet approvoal' for teams, budgets, reaise competitive tender for autoclave, install check- YEARS LOST. Today you have that autoclave, so as when you finalize the design, you can get ppl to start building it straghtaway instead of waiting for the machines to be tendered (one year) & bought (another year) & installed (anotehr year) with training of manpower...(ho hum)

- CAD. I believe we actually wrote the software. But remember we actually started this post with CAD images right. For LCA- Create the software (several bugdet committee approvals, technical review approvals et.c) and then design- YEARS LOST. This time, SOME concept work has already started coz the stuff and ppl are already there and people can start some concept work without waiting for the software to be written and required approvals going through

-We did some 7000 trips to the windtunnel for LCA. This time maybe fewer more computer simulations etc.

- Radar- Remember we struggled wirh our radar for more than a decade? Now we've cracked taht and integrated with a flying platform. We ARE working on AESA for LCA so we won't need a DECADE to get an AESA for AMCA for sure.

-Engine- sure it's choppy but now we have an engine that flies supersonic and doesn't throw blades and manages high altitudes. That's a WAY better start than what the LCA had right?

PPl talk of LCA spinoffs and R&D in vague terms. THESE ARE THE REAL SPIN OFFS and ON GROUND. IT"S WORTH EVERY PENN WE SPENT ON IT

 

[Dash]

no kid i was talking about IRST and how it can track stealth planes yes? but you need special BVR missels with a heat seeker

Looks like you know nothing about IRST, ur post shows how knowledgeable you are. Tell me the configuration of your IRST and I will tell you how can it track stealth planes.....

 

[Dash]

Looks like Iam late to this topic guys....Looks like people are threatened here with AMCA, after PAKFA was released some American analyst said south Asian countries apart from India need to stop operation an air force, and I wonder after MCA and Aura come into picture....

By the way. AMCA has always had a very good frontal stealth aspect but it compromised the rear stalth aspect, Just look at the engine nozzles...

Doesnt look very steakthy at all...

 

[Mirza Jatt]

By the way. AMCA has always had a very good frontal stealth aspect but it compromised the rear stalth aspect, Just look at the engine nozzles...

Doesnt look very steakthy at all...

for AMCA, IAF wanted a complete stealth plane..so highly doubtful, if its the final design...

even the wings sides dont seem to be stealthy...so yes, not stealthy at all...

 

[maithil]

i would like it have something like YF-23 design..but probably thats too much to ask..

 

[Dash]

for AMCA, IAF wanted a complete stealth plane..so highly doubtful, if its the final design...

even the wings sides dont seem to be stealthy...so yes, not stealthy at all...

Wing sides can be modified later to allow stealthiness, however until you are sure what engine you will use in AMCA, I dont think you can bring the stealthy nozzle shaping, The air inlets look fine and with serpentine shapes(as claimed) will remain stealthy, however engine will remain an issue and the shaping...

Well Russian with S-117 engine currently have the same design, but reports are there for a square shape design in future, may be after FGFA comes into picture, ADA gaining advantage will go to that kind of shaping,

But again it depends if the architecture was initially designed or not.

 

[Arjun MBT]

i would like it have something like YF-23 design..but probably thats too much to ask..

Well Whats wrong with this anyway??

 

[Guynextdoor]

Looks like Iam late to this topic guys....Looks like people are threatened here with AMCA, after PAKFA was released some American analyst said south Asian countries apart from India need to stop operation an air force, and I wonder after MCA and Aura come into picture....

By the way. AMCA has always had a very good frontal stealth aspect but it compromised the rear stalth aspect, Just look at the engine nozzles...

Doesnt look very steakthy at all...

I don't know if the rear stealth aspect is THAT important. Even F 35 doesn't seem to have concentrated too much on it. We rn't going to war with the US right where every little inch will count. Should be a good trade off I guess.

 

[Guynextdoor]

---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

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Looks like Iam late to this topic guys....Looks like people are threatened here with AMCA, after PAKFA was released some American analyst said south Asian countries apart from India need to stop operation an air force, and I wonder after MCA and Aura come into picture....

By the way. AMCA has always had a very good frontal stealth aspect but it compromised the rear stalth aspect, Just look at the engine nozzles...

Doesnt look very steakthy at all...

BTW I'm really intersted in knowing who the Kooky Lunatic is who wanted India to stop having an AF. Any links or references? Should be hilarious.