Edit:
CS I have posted these on the Concentrating forces/62 thread as I believe that thread would be better suited for this discussion than the current one.
the 2000 year remark is not my assertion but merely a statement I came across made by an Indian officer who wrote about 1962.
I have found that it is almost always a must to verify such claims, regardless of their origin. To merely state what one reads somewhere without verifying the validity of it might lead to such erroneous statements. The officer makes a rather silly claim about Indian military history in that regard. One wonders about his knowledge given such a breathtaking display of ignorance about probably one of the biggest empires in Indian history, and the Only Indian empire to have brought SEA under its rule...in fact according to historians it was one of the preeminent Naval and Military powers during the 11 and 12th centuries in the world.
Either the officer is ignorant about a major part of the military history of India, and/or he conveniently leaves aside such facts in order to push his pet theory. I believe that in reality this was a mixture of both ignorance as well as willful denial of facts just so he could ride his hobby horse of how "South Asians" mostly suck at military matters. An opening chapter like that does not exactly shore up the credentials of the Author.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...cious-action-pla-lessons-sino-indian-war.html
it's in there somewhere.
and as for the rest about 1962, it's best to deal with facts and details instead of drawing analogies between the PLA offensive and cavalry charges.
Here is a Times report of the period (as an interesting aside, note the use of Red China and the casual racism). They have the situation down.
The Cavalry analogy does fit this particular situation, as my explanations would show later on, in this post. Keep in mind that I explicitly refrained from using the ww2 Blitz analogy as it would certainly not fit this one
Btw, I have read the Thread you had on this issue a couple of months back, when you provided me the link to it. I was hard pressed for time at that time and was not able to reply to it, however I did read through every single page of the pdfs as well as the thread itself.
Quote 1
Red China behaved in so inscrutably Oriental a manner last week that even Asians were baffled. After a series of smashing victories in the border war with India. Chinese troops swept down from the towering Himalayas and were poised at the edge of the fertile plains of Assam, whose jute and tea plantations account for one-fourth of India’s export trade. Then, with Assam lying defenseless before her conquering army. Red China suddenly called a halt to the fighting.
The part quoted in blue is merely setting the stage for the "story" as told by the writer. Inscrutably Oriental means absolutely nothing except to hark back to the old Kipling-ish notions of the East...and to raise an aura of mystery and suspense..what better way for the writer to rope in some more readers
The part in bold was mostly true.
And the part in Red was not. Here is where I fundamentally Disagree.
Ill expand more on this later.
Quote 2
Radio Peking announced that, “on its own initiative.” Red China was ordering a cease-fire on all fronts. Further, by Dec. 1, Chinese troops would retire to positions 12½ miles behind the lines they occupied on Nov. 7. 1959. If this promise is actually carried out. it would mean, for some Chinese units, a pullback of more than 60 miles. These decisions. Peking continued, ”represent a most sincere effort” to achieve ”a speedy termination of the Sino-Indian conflict, a reopening of peaceful negotiations, and a peaceful settlement of the boundary question.” War or peace, the message concluded, ”depends on whether or not the Indian government responds positively.”
The above is pure Propaganda to explain away the inevitable(I'm sorry if this sounds blunt, but one has to call a spade a spade). For the simple fact that the PLA could not have held on to the territory taken, let alone take more. Again ill answer this later.
Quote 3
In New Delhi the government of Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru was taken completely by surprise. An Indian spokesman first denounced the Chinese offer as a “diabolical maneuver.” which was later amended to the comment that India would “wait and see” exactly what the Chinese were proposing. A communique confirmed that, after the cease-fire deadline, there “had been no report of firing by the Chinese aggressors.” Indian troops also stopped shooting, but Nehru warned India: “We must not imagine that the struggle will soon be over.”
I would not be surprised if Nehru actually was surprised...after all he was clueless when it came to military matters.
Quote 4
On closer examination, the Chinese cease-fire proved to be a lot less mysterious. It did offer India’s battered armies a badly needed respite. But it left the Chinese armies in position to resume their offensive if Nehru refuses the Peking terms. And it puts on India the onus of continuing the war. Said the Hindustan Times: “The latest Chinese proposals are not a peace offer but an ultimatum.”
This statement is patently wrong. Some "closer examination" indeed.
Now that I have set the template for my post, ill go ahead and address them in detail.
A picture is worth a thousand words, so allow me to provide one of the region where the conflict took place.
The answer to why China Withdrew, is as simple as that ^^. However, lets continue
I reiterate what I posted on my previous post. An army marches on its stomach. Some salient points to note
Point 1:
The conflict was limited to infantry engagements.No tanks, No air force
Point 2:
The Assam plains...as the name implies (and as you can see in the topographical map provided above) are exactly that...plains.
Point 3:
America was sending Airsupport in the form of bombers and fighter aircraft to India, and the first of these units were already on their way when China "Unilaterally" withdrew. Russia on the other hand supported India on this issue as well, and this was the time when China and Russia were at loggerheads.
Point 3.1
The PLA had both strengths and weakness in its readiness
for mountain warfare against India. Perhaps China's biggest
weakness was the economic and budgetary constraints on the
Army.
The Soviets has willingly supplied the PLA in the
1950's. But deteriorating relations--including border disputes--
with Russia led to the end of Soviet military aid in 1960.
Further, China faced national economic difficulties in the
late 1950s and early 1960s. This resulted in progressive
cutbacks and constraints from 1960 to 1962 for the PLA:
". . . . so serious was the shortage of military equipment
and materials that it caused trouble in the training pro-
gram. . . . The Ground Force is also facing the difficulties
of obtaining fuel, ammunition, and batteries for the use of
their vehicles and in training." The 1962 Taiwan Strait
Crisis put further strains on the PLA's resources. Clearly,
the watchword for the PLA was self-reliance--making due with
the supplies and equipment that were available.
Author: CALVIN, James Barnard, Lieutenant Commander,
U. S. Navy
Title: THE CHINA - INDIA BORDER WAR (1962)
Publisher: Marine Corps Command and Staff College
Date: April 1984
link
The China-India Border War
Now let us revisit Quotes 1 and 4
Quote 1
Red China behaved in so inscrutably Oriental a manner last week that even Asians were baffled. After a series of smashing victories in the border war with India. Chinese troops swept down from the towering Himalayas and were poised at the edge of the fertile plains of Assam, whose jute and tea plantations account for one-fourth of India’s export trade. Then, with Assam lying defenseless before her conquering army. Red China suddenly called a halt to the fighting.
On closer examination, the Chinese cease-fire proved to be a lot less mysterious. It did offer India’s battered armies a badly needed respite. But it left the Chinese armies in position to resume their offensive if Nehru refuses the Peking terms. And it puts on India the onus of continuing the war.
Chinese forces, if they ever set foot on the Assam plains would have been walking into certain defeat. Pls refer to the map provided. There is No way for the Chinese military to bring tanks or heavy weapons...While on the other hand, the Indian troops would be able to. Furthermore the Chinese forces would not only have to face heavy weapons with infantry alone, they will also have to suffer under complete air-superiority held by American and Indian air forces. The Heavy bombing the PLA underwent in Korea was not a pleasant experience...but at lest over there they had far far shorter supply and logistics lines to China than they would have in Assam...in fact the Chinese war reserves would be exhausted in days if not weeks of sustained fighting in that region.
This is not mere speculation, but solely based on facts.(You are free to point out any mistakes). Any trickle of supplies that made through nearly 1000km of mountainous terrain would not suffice...not by a long shot
Otoh the Indian forces would be in a far better position, doubly so because their supply lines would be much shorter....would in fact be much more mobile due to American supply airdrops/logistics, and also to the fact that they can and would use heavy weapons/vehicles against an enemy that is made up on infantry units...and is also bingo ammo and supplies!
There is no way for the PLA to do a Hannibal and bring Tanks(instead of elephants) over the mountains into this region.
And no..there is simply no way...especially in 62 that China could have supplied a fighting force in Assam. I distinctly remember reading a Chinese account of the 1962 conflict(I will go over the stuff I have right with me now and see if it was from one of those sources or from some other book)where it is mentioned that mortar/artillery shells and other supplies had to be built up on the Chinese/India border just before the 1962 conflict through backbreaking labor of men and mules....literally...men used to carry mortar shells on their backs...they were the only things that could bring supplies to such a region..and keep in mind that these man-mule supply trains have to be literally hundreds of kms long.Also keep in mind that that there were no rail lines on the Chinese side for hundreds of miles from the border.The Indian side had at least two going right up the Assam plains.(pic provided for reference)
The Indians, backed with American airpower (even without it) would have no trouble defeating a force that is purely infantry and is almost zero ammo/supplies if it sets foot in the Assam plains.Also refer to point 3.1
This is the very same reason that the Allies during ww2 (who had logistical capabilities orders of magnitudes greater than the PLA during 1962) did not try to invade Germany/France through Italy, even though they had invaded and occupied Italy long before the Normandy invasion. Again, the answer is very simple...mountains. And compared to the mountains and logistical challenges the Allies would have faced, the one faced by PLA would have been orders of magnitudes bigger
^^ see the similarity? Hell Invasion of Europe via Italy would have been a cakewalk compared to the logistical challenges faced by the PLA in the Indo China war.
Thus my previous post still stands, notwithstanding some baseless claims made by writers who do not look at the bigger military picture and are more concerned about "sensationalist" proclamations.
Its a "fact" that the PLA HAD to withdraw or face crushing defeat. In military conflicts around the world, entire armies have fallen due to their own weight...due to lack of supplies. Without supplies, an army is not an army anymore than a writer is a writer without a pen. It would be useless.
Thus in conclusion we can see why "QUOTE 2" was nothing but propaganda. I could go into more detail about this, but I believe I have made my points sufficiently well. I am yet to see any evidence or explanation as to how the PLA could have continued on fighting.....Even without American aid the supply lines from Assam plains to the Arunachal Pradesh border is a few hundred kilometers....for the PLA nearly a 1000. They did well initially, but would have definitly lost a protracted war in that region not for lack of "valour" but for the previously stated reasons. They "saved face" by declaring a unilateral withdrawal which resulted in no net gain to China..and in fact benefited the Indian army in more concrete ways over the years. As I pointed out in my previous post, the Chinese withdrawal is simply to cut its losses when it lost the beginners advantage, and would have to face diminishing returns, and eventual defeat if it were to have followed through on its invasion. You have to give it to them for making it seem as it was a "victory" (if one can claim victory if the "victor" vacates the field with no net gains and with the opponent not suing for peace) thanks to some good old propaganda.
I would gladly answer any valid points you have against this course of events which imho would not have been merely possible, but would have been inevitable.(i meant the withdrawal of the PLA lest it wanted to face defeat).I am aware that you do know a bit about lines of communication..supplies and other stuff regarding warfare, so I'm sure you will look at the cold hard facts than quote reporters who are clueless as to to the subject they are dealing with...and are more concerned about sensationalist news items than factual ones.
