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The Risks of Pakistan's Sea-Based Nuclear Weapons

I am not sure about MAD. First because India is a huge country, second there is ABM system in place and is improving every year. May be the ABM can become perfect or near perfect in next 20 years. I guess in case of a Pakistani nuclear strike, most likely, India will use Pakistan's lack of dept, and capture Pakistani territory as major centers of Pakistan are just across the border as a compensation for the losses it incurred in the nuclear attack.
In war no body destroy every inch and attack/destroy each city...I don't know how this war will continue in a havoc of millions of death with environmental repercussions over South Aisa and major urban or agricultural land destroyed at both sides..Good luck with this if you believe that with ABM nothing will reach on Indian cities and fertile lands..
 
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In war no body destroy every inch and attack/destroy each city...I don't know how this war will continue in a havoc of millions of death with environmental repercussions over South Aisa and major urban or agricultural land destroyed at both sides..Good luck with this if you believe that with ABM nothing will reach on Indian cities and fertile lands..

My guess even if Pakistan uses nukes India will not use nukes until a certain threshold, but would look at this an opportunity for gains both territorially and geo-politically.

I am saying ABM is a system that is improving. India wouldn't have invested billions of dollars in ABM, if it does nothing. My thinking ABM will become perfect someday.
 
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My guess even if Pakistan uses nukes India will not use nukes until a certain threshold, but would look at this an opportunity for gains both territorially and geo-politically.
Not possible , one party using nukes and other is looking for territorial gains..even after watching there own cities being destroyed..
 
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Not possible , one party using nukes and other is looking for territorial gains..even after watching there own cities being destroyed..

Yes, what would India get killing innocent Pakistanis using nukes. It is better to use this opportunity to capture more territory, and settle Kashmir once for and all.
 
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Yes, what would India get killing innocent Pakistanis using nukes. It is better to use this opportunity to capture more territory, and settle Kashmir once for and all.

There is a huge gap in India nuclear posture which is lack of knowledge and capability to make smart tactical nukes. Pakistan on the other hand is armed to teeth with these battlefield weapons. Think of them as MOAB but size of a golf ball you can carry in the pocket. Pakistan has designed them to specifically target and cripple the three arms of Indian defence forces in the initial hour of the war. Pakistan will not cross the strategic threshold of targeting Indian population center, sparing it's citizen but on tactical/battlefield level, it will wipe out India's ability to wage war. There will be no moral obligation or restraint on Pakistan as it already sparring Indian population from nuclear fall out.

As things stand, Pakistan can easily win war with India without breaching strategic threshold.
 
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This part is enough to understand the thinking of the author as to what his goals are...... Yes, the theft in submarines are very common, the darned thieves with the submarine infiltration and teleportation abilities.

Exactly what I was about to say but you said it before me, if an analyst thinks like that then he looses all credibility of analyzing rationally.
 
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I am sure if Pakistan had no nukes, India would have attacked Pakistan in 2008 after Mumbai. I am not sure of 1998, but yes 2002, after Parliament attack,there was a possibility of a war.

i am sure it would have attacked us in 2005, not sure of the rest..

india is always on look of opportunity to break up Pakistan or attack it during a crisis as it did in 1960s (political crisis) and 1971 (civil war)..

this is not me but official position of India, as PM modi has several times said that Pakistan will break into four parts, has several times support openly a terrorist organization that has bombed public places and killed local and foreigners

dont believe just look at his speeches

There is a huge gap in India nuclear posture which is lack of knowledge and capability to make smart tactical nukes. Pakistan on the other hand is armed to teeth with these battlefield weapons. Think of them as MOAB but size of a golf ball you can carry in the pocket. Pakistan has designed them to specifically target and cripple the three arms of Indian defence forces in the initial hour of the war. Pakistan will not cross the strategic threshold of targeting Indian population center, sparing it's citizen but on tactical/battlefield level, it will wipe out India's ability to wage war. There will be no moral obligation or restraint on Pakistan as it already sparring Indian population from nuclear fall out.

As things stand, Pakistan can easily win war with India without breaching strategic threshold.
this approach is good back up plan but still is not a deterrence, India will respond with nukes on our less populated or miltary targets as well, this is more last ditch effort

the solution is improving your conventional arms in economical way..this can be done by focusing on local production and simplifications that will prolong the war

we need more JV and local production of SAMs, tanks, Aircrafts and helios
 
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https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/the-risks-of-pakistans-sea-based-nuclear-weapons/

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Nine days into 2017, Pakistan carried out the first-ever flight test of the Babur-3, it’s new nuclear-capable submarine-launched cruise missile (SLCM). A variant of the Babur-3 ground-launched cruise missile (GLCM), this SLCM will see Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent head to sea—probably initially aboard its Agosta 90B and Agosta 70 submarines, but eventually, perhaps even on board new Type 041 Yuan-class submarines Pakistan is expected to procure from China.

In a new article in the Fall 2017 issue of the Washington Quarterly, Christopher Clary and I examine some of the novel security challenges Pakistan may experience with its sea-based deterrent. It is already well known that Pakistan has outpaced it’s primary rival, India, in terms of its nuclear stockpile growth.

On land, low-yield systems, like the Nasr, have also raised concerns of a lower nuclear-use threshold in South Asia. The move to sea can have some positive effects on overall strategic stability; indeed, the perceived survivability of a sea-based deterrent can abate so-called “use-it-or-lose-it” pressures for Pakistan’s land-based forces. But the story doesn’t stop there.


Sea-based weapons can aggravate crisis stability concerns in the India-Pakistan dyad and present unique command-and-control challenges for Pakistan, which may be required to place these weapons at a higher level of readiness during peacetime. Finally, Pakistan’s internal security environment will remain a concern with a submarine-based deterrent. The threat of theft and sabotage may be greater in the case of Pakistan’s sea-based weapons than it is for its land-based forces. In aggregate, we argue that the sea-based deterrent may, on balance, prove detrimental to Pakistan’s security.

Pakistan, like other nuclear states, employs a range of physical and procedural safeguards to ensure that its nuclear weapons are only used in a crisis and a with a valid order from the country’s National Command Authority (NCA). The introduction of a nuclear-capable SLCM aboard its Agosta submarines would necessitate the erosion of some of these safeguards.

For instance, some physical safeguards that Pakistan is known to use for its land-based weapons — including partially dissembled storage, separation of triggers and pits, and de-mated storage — would be impractical at sea. Meanwhile, the experience of other nuclear states, like the United Kingdom, with sea-based deterrents suggests that sea-based nuclear weapons generally see fewer use impediments. Pakistan has long asserted that its nuclear command-and-control is highly centralized, but it remains doubtful that this would remain true for its small nuclear-capable submarine force in wartime or a crisis. The temptation to pre-delegate use authorization may be too great.

Leaving aside the command-and-control and safeguard concerns, sea-based weapons may seriously aggravate crisis stability, in other words, the temptation for India to attack first as a crisis begins. The theory behind a survivable sea-based second-strike capability is more compelling assuming a large submarine force capable of maintaining a continuous at-sea deterrent presence. Pakistan’s submarine force, by contrast, would likely employ a bastion model — meaning that their peacetime locations would be known and hence the submarines would be vulnerable to Indian conventional attack.

Similarly, Indian forces, unable to discriminate whether a detected Pakistani submarine in a crisis was fielding nuclear or conventional capabilities, would have to presume nuclear capability should the Babur-3 see deployment. All of this in turn not only would make Pakistan’s submarine force a prime early-crisis target for Indian forces, but also aggravate use-or-lose pressures for land-based forces.

Ultimately, even if India resisted attacking Pakistani submarines to avoid unintended escalatory pressures, it would at least see value in targeting the Very Low Frequency (VLF) radar facility established at Karachi in November 2016 that would allow Pakistan’s NCA to communicate with its at-sea deterrent in a crisis. This would require some confidence in New Delhi that Pakistan had not pre-delegated use authorization and that Islamabad’s sea-based weapons would still require the transmission of a use-authorization code from the NCA.

Finally, a major cause for concern with Pakistan’s move to the sea with its nuclear forces comes from its ongoing struggle with various radical Islamic militant groups. Here, Pakistan is somewhat unique among nuclear possessor states. While militants have mostly targeted soft targets in urban centers, the Pakistani military has endured major attacks as well. In particular, Pakistan has endured attacks and infiltration attempts at sensitive military and naval sites, some associated with its nuclear program. Then-Defense Minister Khawaja Asif acknowledged that Pakistan Navy insiders even abetted Al Qaeda attackers in the 2014 PNS Zulfiquarattack. (Similar reports surfaced around the time of the 2011 PNS Mehran attacks, too.)

Militants with an eye on Pakistan’s nuclear weapons may find no better targets than sea-based systems with fewer physical safeguards. Moreover, the locations of these weapons would be well-known in peacetime, unlike Pakistan’s land-based weapons. The Pakistan Naval Dockyard in Karachi or the Jinnah Naval Base in Ormara — the two known sites capable of hosting Pakistani submarines — are thus prime for attack, infiltration, and even insider risks. While many of the above risks raised by the Babur-3 are far from unique to Pakistan, no other nuclear state faces a similar level of internal militancy.

The Babur-3‘s introduction presents a classic at-sea deterrent dilemma for Pakistan. It can choose to have its presumed second-strike capability either totally secure or readily usable in wartime. For a range of reasons, Pakistan can be expected to opt for the latter option. This will require real compromises on nuclear weapons security that expose Pakistan’s sea-based deterrent to theft and unauthorized use. Combined with the crisis stability implications and the more mundane concerns rising from costs, a sea-based leg to Pakistan’s nuclear forces appears to be, on balance, a net negative for its overall security.



The author and the source of the above article is indian so it is null, void, a lie, worthless and should not be taken seriously. Move on everyone.
 
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There is a huge gap in India nuclear posture which is lack of knowledge and capability to make smart tactical nukes. Pakistan on the other hand is armed to teeth with these battlefield weapons. Think of them as MOAB but size of a golf ball you can carry in the pocket. Pakistan has designed them to specifically target and cripple the three arms of Indian defence forces in the initial hour of the war. Pakistan will not cross the strategic threshold of targeting Indian population center, sparing it's citizen but on tactical/battlefield level, it will wipe out India's ability to wage war. There will be no moral obligation or restraint on Pakistan as it already sparring Indian population from nuclear fall out.

As things stand, Pakistan can easily win war with India without breaching strategic threshold.

Do you seriously think miniaturising nukes are tomorrows technology? Our policy do not revolve around small nukes just to destroy a platoon or a battallion. Our policy is No-First use policy, so, in case you fire a nuclear weapon at any Indian troops, no matter the size of the nuclear weapon, it's a nuke. The response will be a full scale nuclear strike on Pakistan, be it civilian or mil. That's one reason why Russia and US never put mini-nukes at the hands of few soldiers (Although they did that back during cold war, but decided against it knowing the potential disaster). Knowing that, it will lead to total destruction.

Or rather India will keep quiet if met with a minimal casuality while Pakistan should explain the use of Nuclear weapon to kill, after more than 70 years. Leaving it vulnerable, and all options for India. The point is, you can build as many tactical nukes you want. But you don't know the retaliation from Indian side, how will that be, or how will the world react to usage of nukes.

As things stand, Pakistan can easily put up a fight in conventional war. But there will not be any winners. You have tried, you failed. If you really wanna use nukes, we can nuke each other to oblivion.
 
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then why india started it ? it was india whom testes sea based missiles first . pakistani nukes in sea are at same risk where indian are .
good evening sir , as far as i perceive analyzing the history , pakistan is not enemy , china is . having said that , we do have some disputes but i am sure , nukes wont be used against pakistan ever but i am not sure for china .
good night
 
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My guess even if Pakistan uses nukes India will not use nukes until a certain threshold, but would look at this an opportunity for gains both territorially and geo-politically.

I am saying ABM is a system that is improving. India wouldn't have invested billions of dollars in ABM, if it does nothing. My thinking ABM will become perfect someday.

ABM is improving then so do BMs, this is cat and mouse game and no ABM will be perfect as its counter measures will also be evolving continuously.
 
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Do you seriously think miniaturising nukes are tomorrows technology? Our policy do not revolve around small nukes just to destroy a platoon or a battallion. Our policy is No-First use policy, so, in case you fire a nuclear weapon at any Indian troops, no matter the size of the nuclear weapon, it's a nuke. The response will be a full scale nuclear strike on Pakistan, be it civilian or mil. That's one reason why Russia and US never put mini-nukes at the hands of few soldiers (Although they did that back during cold war, but decided against it knowing the potential disaster). Knowing that, it will lead to total destruction.

Or rather India will keep quiet if met with a minimal casuality while Pakistan should explain the use of Nuclear weapon to kill, after more than 70 years. Leaving it vulnerable, and all options for India. The point is, you can build as many tactical nukes you want. But you don't know the retaliation from Indian side, how will that be, or how will the world react to usage of nukes.

As things stand, Pakistan can easily put up a fight in conventional war. But there will not be any winners. You have tried, you failed. If you really wanna use nukes, we can nuke each other to oblivion.


Its not tomorrow's tech but it is considered to be pinnacle in the relevant field. It is easy to build thermo nuclear warhead than to miniaturize them to sub kilo ton, localize destruction.

And who says it will be used against platoons or Armour brigades only? It will be used against Indian air bases, Naval ports/installations, command & control, harden targets, etc. Think of them as MOAB. What a sortie of JF17s/F-16s might not be able to achieve, only single Mirage armed with RAAD standoff missile mated with a TNW can do. One Indian Air base, one TNW , that is the equation and that is all which is required.

Your policy is hampered by non availability of smart nukes which you dont have clue about. You lack technology and knowledge, its not that you dont want to have them in your inventory. You need to learn the concept of "escalation ladder". You Indian trolls keep on missing the point. TNWs are tactical/battlefield weapons, they are not strategic in nature. You want to jump the escalation ladder by replying to tactical weapons with strategic ones on Pakistani citizens?

The opposing armed forces are dispensable, that is what war is all about. It doesn't matter if Indian forces get killed by a bullet or TNWs, as long as Pakistan can avoid hitting Indian population centers, it is well within its right to use whatever necessary to win the war against Indian armed forces. Besides, in the fog of war, and heat of the battle, who is going to check and verify what was used over a remote Indian air force base or a Armour/infantry brigade? As long as there are no visible signs of nukes used, which relates to the population centers and the civilians within, India cannot launch its nukes over Pakistani cities. Even on LOC, we reply each other with proportional caliber of the weapons, either build tactical weapons to achieve equilibrium with Pakistan or try to jump the steps on the escalation ladder, which in all honestly might bring you down from the ladder.
 
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Its not tomorrow's tech but it is considered to be pinnacle in the relevant field. It is easy to build thermo nuclear warhead than to miniaturize them to sub kilo ton, localize destruction.
You know that it's BS. Lol at the Pinnacle. Any country with enough knowledge on nuclear weapons development can easily develop a Tactical nukes. It is 60's-70's technology.

And who says it will be used against platoons or Armour brigades only? It will be used against Indian air bases, Naval ports/installations, command & control, harden targets, etc. Think of them as MOAB. What a sortie of JF17s/F-16s might not be able to achieve, only single Mirage armed with RAAD standoff missile mated with a TNW can do. One Indian Air base, one TNW , that is the equation and that is all which is required.
Buddy, you have no balls to fire a conventional missile with expecting a similar retaliation in return. MOAB is a conventional bomb. I assume, your knowledge on the subject is like the miniaturization. That's why you think of throwing nukes at Indian air bases. Rest is all your dreams which never come true and if ever come true pure land will turn to barren waste land.

Your policy is hampered by non availability of smart nukes which you dont have clue about. You lack technology and knowledge, its not that you dont want to have them in your inventory. You need to learn the concept of "escalation ladder". You Indian trolls keep on missing the point. TNWs are tactical/battlefield weapons, they are not strategic in nature. You want to jump the escalation ladder by replying to tactical weapons with strategic ones on Pakistani citizens?
Rich you call others troll when whole comment was false bravado and preconceived misconception of the capability of India. You have always underestimated India and have paid the price. Just like in 65, you thought of getting away by attacking J&K but never thought of escalation on other fronts. Don't expect the same in return.
Our policy is simple, as if you use Nukes, you will get the same in return, only that, you have to use it first.

The biggest blunder in your comment is calling TNW as battlefield weapons. They comes under radiation weapon. The area struck by TNW are all the same as a Nuclear bomb. By using a TNW, you are essentially creating Dejavu of Chernobyl.

Have you even tested a TNW to know it's effects?
The opposing armed forces are dispensable, that is what war is all about. It doesn't matter if Indian forces get killed by a bullet or TNWs, as long as Pakistan can avoid hitting Indian population centers, it is well within its right to use whatever necessary to win the war against Indian armed forces. Besides, in the fog of war, and heat of the battle, who is going to check and verify what was used over a remote Indian air force base or a Armour/infantry brigade? As long as there are no visible signs of nukes used, which relates to the population centers and the civilians within, India cannot launch its nukes over Pakistani cities. Even on LOC, we reply each other with proportional caliber of the weapons, either build tactical weapons to achieve equilibrium with Pakistan or try to jump the steps on the escalation ladder, which in all honestly might bring you down from the ladder.
The government of India, has already explained, use of any nuclear weapons on it's army will be considered as a Nuclear war, and the response will not be limited to a tactical use of Nuclear weapons. We don't need to develop TNW when we follow the policy of using Nukes on anywhere we wish to use.

And as Pakistan's populated areas are so close to militarized regions, the effects will be almost the same if India ever use a Nuclear weapon or a TNW.

Do you realize that, once a TNW is used on an airbase, it cannot be repaired and put to use again and if the radiation clouds head to populated areas, say through the ground water, rivers or lakes. The response will be a use of Nuclear weapon in response.
 
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You know that it's BS. Lol at the Pinnacle. Any country with enough knowledge on nuclear weapons development can easily develop a Tactical nukes. It is 60's-70's technology.

How old are you kid? There are reasons why India cant make it.


Buddy, you have no balls to fire a conventional missile with expecting a similar retaliation in return. MOAB is a conventional bomb. I assume, your knowledge on the subject is like the miniaturization. That's why you think of throwing nukes at Indian air bases. Rest is all your dreams which never come true and if ever come true pure land will turn to barren waste land.

Keep on ranting, your lack of knowledge about escalation ladder is quite assuming. MOAB is equivalent of TNW in destruction, only it is conventional. Barren waste land? HA!


Rich you call others troll when whole comment was false bravado and preconceived misconception of the capability of India. You have always underestimated India and have paid the price. Just like in 65, you thought of getting away by attacking J&K but never thought of escalation on other fronts. Don't expect the same in return.
Our policy is simple, as if you use Nukes, you will get the same in return, only that, you have to use it first.

The biggest blunder in your comment is calling TNW as battlefield weapons. They comes under radiation weapon. The area struck by TNW are all the same as a Nuclear bomb. By using a TNW, you are essentially creating Dejavu of Chernobyl.

Have you even tested a TNW to know it's effects?

Get your head checked sunshine. Its not us who are going on suicidal path, have hallucinations of waging limited war with India under this false bravado of cold start. Its funny how Pakistan developed TNWs in response to Indian stupidity which according to Indian goons will allow India to wage war with Pakistan without crossing the nuclear threshold. I dont have to give you history lessons and chronology of events here do I?

Use google mate, TNWs are always classed as battlefield weapons, they are NOT strategic in nature. The whole idea behind them is to neutralize enemy forces, not its population.



The government of India, has already explained, use of any nuclear weapons on it's army will be considered as a Nuclear war, and the response will not be limited to a tactical use of Nuclear weapons. We don't need to develop TNW when we follow the policy of using Nukes on anywhere we wish to use.

And as Pakistan's populated areas are so close to militarized regions, the effects will be almost the same if India ever use a Nuclear weapon or a TNW.

Do you realize that, once a TNW is used on an airbase, it cannot be repaired and put to use again and if the radiation clouds head to populated areas, say through the ground water, rivers or lakes. The response will be a use of Nuclear weapon in response.


Indian government also believe that it can wage a limited war with Pakistan (cold start) without crossing the nuclear threshold. Do you believe such suicidal bunch? Considering Pakistan follow first strike doctrine where it will use overwhelming nuke attack to destroy the Indian ability to wage war against Pakistan, that was in the pre-TNWs era. Nothing has change, infact it actually raised the nuke threshold of Pakistan where now we can enjoy the tactical deployments without having to cross the strategic threshold. Indian rants are irrelevant.
 
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