The Ramadan War: The Battle for Dignity

[500]

first: Extermination of indigenous peoples and the occupation of its territory, Just like the Europeans do in the New World, It is immoral and inhumane.

I repeat, Arab population grew 12 times since the beginning of Zionism, what extermination are u talking about?

second: There is no similarity between Palestine and the New World, Because Palestine is the land of civilizations and land of the three monotheistic religions.

yep, Europeans in new wolrd were total aliens, Jews lived in Palestine since 4000 years ago.

third: Palestine Were not in one day Depopulated, And say that Jews have set up their own state In Uninhabited land Is stupid and foolish

In time of Jesus Palestine population was 2-3 millions, when Zionism started it was only 400 K. Now its back to millions.

forth: you Wants the Arabs to accept the occupation of their land, Do you accept to cut part of Botswana or India to create a state for Jews on it ?

Jews are indegenous population of Middle East. They lived in Palestine thousands years before the Arabs. Arabs got 99.9% of Middle East with all resources, Jews want only 0.1% of deserted land.

sixth: When the Arabs regain their occupied land, and When the Jews return to their places of origin In Europe, America and North Africa , Then wars will stop and there will be peace in region

Wars of Muslims between each other were much more bloody than wars with Israel: Iran-Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Kurds, Algeria, Darfur, Bagladesh, Indonesia...

 

[500]

I don't have to provide any sources, since your own Israeli historians and politicians blame PM Meir for the outbreak of the war, because of her rejection of Sadat's initiatives, that's a common knowledge.

You're doing your best to derail my thread BTW.

I brought non Israeli source saying that Israel asked direct talks before the war. While Egypt wanted indirect talks and silly conditions like 90 mile withdrawal and limiting Jewish immigration.

 

[Canaan]

There were 24,000 Jews, thats almost 6%.

it depends on what study you choose to citate. we can agree on it being between 4-6% I don't mind, the point is that jews was a minority in a land populated by others.

I repeat again, not Jewish land =! Arab land. Because most of the lands were belong to Ottoman Empire. Also lost of lands were belonged to churches and western countries. Also most of Arab lands were belong to foreign landlors and not to poor peasants.

I repeat, and advice you to refer to recognized studies not personal oppinions. Although some of what you say is correct, the proportions you mention are way out of order. The fact is that Jews prior to the 1947 partition plan never owned more than 6% which is in stark contrast to the zionist myths and lies.

I also believe that the partition plan is void, since it was created in opposition to the mandate's stated aim by the league of nations. One, is that Britain didn't own Palestine and was never giving anything but the political control of it. The other thing is that the it clearly states that the mandate should work for the local populations wishes, which as we all know didn't happen. Instead zionist colonialists were given 50% of historic Palestine for free, and the rest was taken by force.

These are absurd numbers. If you want to know real ethnic cleansing I can show u:

In 1850 there were 6.6 mln Irish in Ireland and 0.35 mln Arabs in Palestine.

Today there are 4.5 mln Irish in Ireland and 5 mln Arabs in Palestine.

As you can see, since mid of 19th century Itish population in Ireland dropped 1.5 times while Arab population in Palestine grew 14 times.

You can't compare Ireland to Palestine, since Ireland was not taken over by another people. Most Irish left the Potato famine, and migrated West. Palestinians didn't migrate out of economic reasons, but fled because of war.

You are confusing lkand oiwnership with sovereignty.

You confuse political control, with ownership and the right to donate populated land that is not yours to a foreign people for political reasons.

Palestine is nothing but Hebrew name of this region. It is not a country.

"Palestine" is not Hebrew, as the hebrew term is Peleshet equal to Philistia in english.
Numerous terms and names have been used throughout history by different parties to describe the same, the land between the river and the sea, with its people.

As I said before, 100,000 mln people became refugees in 20th century alone. Among them 850 K Jews from Arab countries.

Still it doesn't make it ok. Not all 850k jews were refugees, the majority were immigrants to the newly created state, just ask some of your yemeni and moroccan jews.

1.5 mln of Arabs in Israel dont mind to live in Israel.

unless you have asked them all, I doubt that claim.
Israel is the lesser of evils. I will bet my right arm, that they would prefer to see Israel gone.

So where is that "occupation"?

Are you seriously denying that there is any occupation?
Ladies and gentlemen we have reached a new extreme in israeli denial.
Well let's ask the majority of the world's population whether there is an occupation or not.
Dude I saw the physical presence of the IDF and settlers on and around the WB so how in the world can you claim something so outrageous.?
thank God no body agrees with you

 

[Canaan]

I repeat, Arab population grew 12 times since the beginning of Zionism, what extermination are u talking about?

Of course there is a growth in population since most people do in fact reproduce. Ethnic cleansing is not only about killing people, which you are experts in, but also to force people out via different ways of pressure, physically and mentally.

yep, Europeans in new wolrd were total aliens, Jews lived in Palestine since 4000 years ago.

Palestinians lived there even longer. Before judaism arrived in Palestine, it was a functioning state called canaan. There was a civilization there 6000-7000 years before the first Israelite arrived.

In time of Jesus Palestine population was 2-3 millions, when Zionism started it was only 400 K. Now its back to millions.

according to biblical narratives. to my knowledge no scientific evidence support that number.

Jews are indegenous population of Middle East. They lived in Palestine thousands years before the Arabs. Arabs got 99.9% of Middle East with all resources, Jews want only 0.1% of deserted land.

Middle Eastern Jews are indigenous to the arabian peninsula and mesopetamia, not Palestine. The great majority, Ashkenazim, are almost exclusively indigenous to Europe not the Middle East.
Palestinians are ethnically not arabs. In fact revised history proves that a great part of Palestinians are islamized jews, christians and canaanites/philistines, natives of this land, contrary to many jews, who are judaized ethiopians, europeans, slavs, berbers, arabs, khazars etc.

 

[500]

it depends on what study you choose to citate. we can agree on it being between 4-6% I don't mind, the point is that jews was a minority in a land populated by others.

Palestine was so sparsely populated that there is no much point to talk about majority.

I repeat, and advice you to refer to recognized studies not personal oppinions. Although some of what you say is correct, the proportions you mention are way out of order. The fact is that Jews prior to the 1947 partition plan never owned more than 6% which is in stark contrast to the zionist myths and lies.

I am talking about facts, most of the lands were government lands.

I also believe that the partition plan is void, since it was created in opposition to the mandate's stated aim by the league of nations. One, is that Britain didn't own Palestine and was never giving anything but the political control of it. The other thing is that the it clearly states that the mandate should work for the local populations wishes, which as we all know didn't happen. Instead zionist colonialists were given 50% of historic Palestine for free, and the rest was taken by force.

One of the main reasons why League of Nations gave mandate to Britain is to establish Jewish national home there.

As for "historic Palestine" - there is not such thing. Palestine ius nothing but product of Sices Picot agreements + Jewish influence. If not the Jews, Galilee would go to Lebanon.

You can't compare Ireland to Palestine, since Ireland was not taken over by another people. Most Irish left the Potato famine, and migrated West. Palestinians didn't migrate out of economic reasons, but fled because of war.

Thats what I am talking, Jewish settlement did not happen at expence of Arab population, on contrary, since Jews settled there Arabs rapidly grew.

You confuse political control, with ownership and the right to donate populated land that is not yours to a foreign people for political reasons.

You talked first about land ownership and later switched to political control.

"Palestine" is not Hebrew, as the hebrew term is Peleshet equal to Philistia in english.

Hebrew Bible if first source where root PLST came out. And Hebrew is only language where word PLST has meaning.

Still it doesn't make it ok. Not all 850k jews were refugees, the majority were immigrants to the newly created state, just ask some of your yemeni and moroccan jews.

99,9% dont migrate just suddenly. They were pesrecuted and left leafing most of their property, iften all property.

unless you have asked them all, I doubt that claim.
Israel is the lesser of evils. I will bet my right arm, that they would prefer to see Israel gone.

I never seen any Israeli ARab who would like to live in Palestinian state or in Syria or Egypt or Jordan over Israel.

Are you seriously denying that there is any occupation?
Ladies and gentlemen we have reached a new extreme in israeli denial.
Well let's ask the majority of the world's population whether there is an occupation or not.
Dude I saw the physical presence of the IDF and settlers on and around the WB so how in the world can you claim something so outrageous.?
thank God no body agrees with you

Is WB they have wide authonomy. Once they recognize Israel they wil get a state.

 

[500]

Of course there is a growth in population since most people do in fact reproduce. Ethnic cleansing is not only about killing people, which you are experts in, but also to force people out via different ways of pressure, physically and mentally.

Problem that under the Arab rule Palestine population did not grew, on contrary it decreased.

Palestinians lived there even longer. Before judaism arrived in Palestine, it was a functioning state called canaan. There was a civilization there 6000-7000 years before the first Israelite arrived.

Canaan is nothing but another name from Hebrew Bible. There was never nation which called itself Canaan.

Today "Palestinians" are misxture of Arab migrants from all around. For example most of coastial Arabs are migrants from Egypt, Galilee Arabs are mostly migrants from Lebanon and Syria, Hebron ispopulated by Arab tribes from Hejaz, Bethlehem by Arabs from Yemen, Negev is populated by Bedouins from Arabian peninsula...

according to biblical narratives. to my knowledge no scientific evidence support that number.

No its according to historians:

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Middle Eastern Jews are indigenous to the arabian peninsula and mesopetamia, not Palestine. The great majority, Ashkenazim, are almost exclusively indigenous to Europe not the Middle East.
Palestinians are ethnically not arabs. In fact revised history proves that a great part of Palestinians are islamized jews, christians and canaanites/philistines, natives of this land, contrary to many jews, who are judaized ethiopians, europeans, slavs, berbers, arabs, khazars etc.

All Jews except ethiopian have very close genetics:

 

[Canaan]

Palestine was so sparsely populated that there is no much point to talk about majority.

not entirely true. The population density exceeds a lot of the world's nations, and hence your statement is void, besides, we are still discussing that 6% out of a 100% is not much, meaning if I have a cake, and you only have a small slice, how on earth can you claim the entire cake?

I am talking about facts, most of the lands were government lands.

Useless, to argue with you. I repeat, the mandate didn't give ownership to Britain of the land, only political control, why is it hard to understand.

One of the main reasons why League of Nations gave mandate to Britain is to establish Jewish national home there.

Nope, the stated aim, if you bothered to read the formulation, was to create a state for the indigenous people according to their wishes.
On the other hand, Britain had already promised to create a jewish nation there through the declaration made by Lord Balfour,not the british people, inspite the promise to arabs about independence. Last time I checked Balfour didn't own Palestine, nor did the British, and hence in my oppinion the mandate and partition are void since they are established on a corrupt base. And hence, everybody is in their right to change this situation through all means.

As for "historic Palestine" - there is not such thing. Palestine ius nothing but product of Sices Picot agreements + Jewish influence. If not the Jews, Galilee would go to Lebanon.

I am sorry, but academics tend to disagree. And how is it that the Galilee would go to lebanon? for me rather it goes to lebanon than russians and poles who have nothing to do there in the first place.

Thats what I am talking, Jewish settlement did not happen at expence of Arab population, on contrary, since Jews settled there Arabs rapidly grew.

Sir, please concentrate, we where just talking about how jews multiplied hundreds of times compared to the 12x growth in arab population, and control the entire land. Where is the logic in what you say? and why are there more than half a million settlers in WB expanding on a daily basis?

You talked first about land ownership and later switched to political control.

yes, landownership=palestinians, political control=british mandate want me to spell it out more?

Hebrew Bible if first source where root PLST came out. And Hebrew is only language where word PLST has meaning.

Nope ancient egyptian texts predate the bible. Besides I don't care if it was called Mars, the land is the same and people the same. Italy is not called Rome anymore. Names change.

99,9% dont migrate just suddenly. They were pesrecuted and left leafing most of their property, iften all property.

Some were persecuted because of zionist occupation of Palestine, most left voluntarily. That's in the words of your own politicians like former Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu, former government minister Shlomo Hillel, and politician Ran Cohen who state that they left their country of origin for Israel to pursue Zionist aspirations and not as refugees fleeing Arab persecution

I never seen any Israeli ARab who would like to live in Palestinian state or in Syria or Egypt or Jordan over Israel.

Again the lesser of the evils. I would bet anything, if you ask them whether they would like to live under israeli control or see Israel gone, they would chose the latter. Israel for them was not a blessing.

Is WB they have wide authonomy. Once they recognize Israel they wil get a state

They only control 60% of the 11% remaining, and are rounded up by the apartheid wall and 500,000 settlers, have no control on the ground, resources, airspace or borders. WB is dissected with over 700 check points, and no one can get in our out without the approval of the IDF. So what BS autonomy are you talking about. Besides Israel was recognized in 1988 so what in the world are you talking about? Israel is yet to recognize the palestinians

 

[Nishan]

Are you seriously denying that there is any occupation?
Ladies and gentlemen we have reached a new extreme in israeli denial.
Well let's ask the majority of the world's population whether there is an occupation or not.
Dude I saw the physical presence of the IDF and settlers on and around the WB so how in the world can you claim something so outrageous.?
thank God no body agrees with you

The Israelis reached the highest levels out of the fact . . They imagine that they have become part of the Middle East . . Now it's there who thinks that there is no Israeli occupation . . Tomorrow the Israelis will demand liberalization of Egypt's occupation of Egypt . . And the liberation of Syria from the Syrian occupation . . .How much does this pathetic

 

[Canaan]

Problem that under the Arab rule Palestine population did not grew, on contrary it decreased.

I would like some numbers here, since according to my knowledge there was never an official track of the number of inhabitants until the 18th century or so.

Canaan is nothing but another name from Hebrew Bible. There was never nation which called itself Canaan.

haha, that's ridiculous. You are contradicting the world's best historians and researchers. And now you want to tell me that Jerusalem was also founded by the jews.

Today "Palestinians" are misxture of Arab migrants from all around. For example most of coastial Arabs are migrants from Egypt, Galilee Arabs are mostly migrants from Lebanon and Syria, Hebron ispopulated by Arab tribes from Hejaz, Bethlehem by Arabs from Yemen, Negev is populated by Bedouins from Arabian peninsula...

Several genetic studies can prove you wrong. Let's ask Ariella Oppenheim, who is one of the leading Israeli geneticist appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis and Palestinians, together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously first Christianized then largely Islamized, and all eventually culturally Arabized. Referring to those of the Muslim faith more specifically, it reaffirmed that Palestinian "Muslim Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel, Sinai and part of Jordan." Geneticist Michael Hammer praised "the study for 'focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations.'"
I can refer to more studies, made in spain and the US, but honestly I don't have the time. You can do it on your own.

No its according to historians:

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All Jews except ethiopian have very close genetics:

You are mixing things up here.
First send ethiopians home, they don't belong there.
Second, upwards 70% of the jews arriving from Russia are recent converts through the mother and hence are not semetic and should also be sent home.
Third, a large part of the Ashkenazim are white slavs, some have traces of their semetic ancestry through the Y chromosom, many don't, send them home.
So in your oppinion, an Eskimo that converts to Judaism is more entitled to migrate to Israel than a palestinian whose ancestors have been there for thousands of years.

 

[Nishan]

Today "Palestinians" are misxture of Arab migrants from all around. For example most of coastial Arabs are migrants from Egypt, Galilee Arabs are mostly migrants from Lebanon and Syria, Hebron ispopulated by Arab tribes from Hejaz, Bethlehem by Arabs from Yemen, Negev is populated by Bedouins from Arabian peninsula...

First:

67.1% of Israeli Jews born in Israel
22.6% of Isreali Jews born in Europe & America
5.9% of Isreal Jews born in Africa
4.2% of Israel Jews BORN in Asia

Second:

20% of Israelis with dual citizenship, mostly US-Israeli citizenship

Third:

The largest gathering Jews in the world is New York City with an estimated two million.

Forth:

The Population of PALESTINE from the Dead Sea at the East to the Mediterranean at the west

Arab & Jews in Palestine at 2006

The Population Total in 2006

The Population Percentage in 2006

Arab & Jews in Palestine at 2050

The Population Total in 2050

The Population Percentage in 2050

the resources of these figures are:

- Israeli Central Bureau of Statistices
- United Nations World Population Prospects

 

[Menes]

I brought non Israeli source saying that Israel asked direct talks before the war. While Egypt wanted indirect talks and silly conditions like 90 mile withdrawal and limiting Jewish immigration.

Yet most historians and Israelis themselves blame Meir not Sadat.

"Most studies of the attempts to reach a political solution to the Egyptian–Israeli dispute between the wars of 1967 and 1973 focus predominantly on the Jarring mission (1968–71), the Rogers plan (1969–70) and Sadat's plan for a partial agreement in the Canal sector (early 1971). However, as new archival documents show, the most important diplomatic initiative during this period was Sadat's proposal for a comprehensive settlement of the Egyptian–Israeli dispute, which was secretly submitted to Kissinger in February 1973. Despite the fact that it met most of Israel's requirements regarding peace, Sadat's proposal was rejected by Golda Meir, who refused to return the territories occupied in 1967. Meir's stand did not change even when, in April 1973, Israel's leadership concluded that the only alternative to the diplomatic process was war, which would break out soon. By making this decision, Golda Meir and her colleagues opted for war rather than peace and turned the October 1973 Yom Kippur War into a war of choice."
-Last Chance to Avoid War: Sadat's Peace Initiative of February 1973 and its Failure by Uri Bar-Joseph

He is Israeli historian BTW..

 

[Menes]

Egyptian crew of Soviet 82mm mortar wearing the special load carrying assault jerkin which was issued to most of the first wave across the canal.

Egyptians crew of a 7.62mm Soviet Goryunov machine gun, license-built in Egypt, in an emplacement overlooking one of the passes in the southern Sinai liberated in 1973.

 

[500]

not entirely true. The population density exceeds a lot of the world's nations, and hence your statement is void, besides,

In time of Jesus 2-3 milion people lived in Palestine.
Before Zionism - 400 K.
Today - 10 millions.

Thus it was very sparcely populated.

Useless, to argue with you. I repeat, the mandate didn't give ownership to Britain of the land, only political control, why is it hard to understand.

You are the one who mixes up two things. For example in Israel and in areas A there is Israeli political control, but still many lands belong to Arabs.

There are also government lands they belong to those who control this land politically.

Nope, the stated aim, if you bothered to read the formulation, was to create a state for the indigenous people according to their wishes.

I suggest you to read League of Nations Mandate text:

The Council of the League of Nations:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non*Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;

I am sorry, but academics tend to disagree.

I am sorry but they tend to agree. There was not any Canaanite nation, its mixture of people that usually fught each other.

And how is it that the Galilee would go to lebanon?

I just noted that there is no such thing as "historical Palestine". Arabs called the whole region Ash Sham - or greater Syria. Today Israel is only 6% of Greater Syria territory.

Sir, please concentrate, we where just talking about how jews multiplied hundreds of times compared to the 12x growth in arab population, and control the entire land. Where is the logic in what you say? and why are there more than half a million settlers in WB expanding on a daily basis?

I just say that Jewish growth is not at expence of Arab. For example in N Ireland Protestan majority became at expence of Catholic.

Do u know, for example than until 1980-es there was lage Arab emigration from West Bank and gaza, because there were not jobs. But then Jewish settlers come there and created lots of jobs and emigration stopped.

Nope ancient egyptian texts predate the bible.

In Egyotian textx there are people called PRST. Many hystrornains say that PRST and PLST are same but no one knows for sure.

Some were persecuted because of zionist occupation of Palestine, most left voluntarily. That's in the words of your own politicians like former Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu, former government minister Shlomo Hillel, and politician Ran Cohen who state that they left their country of origin for Israel to pursue Zionist aspirations and not as refugees fleeing Arab persecution

Why Turkish or Iranian Jews did not leave in 99.9% numbers? And wast majority of Palestinian refugees who left never saw an Israeli soldier.

Again the lesser of the evils. I would bet anything, if you ask them whether they would like to live under israeli control or see Israel gone, they would chose the latter. Israel for them was not a blessing.

So they want Israeli citizenship and see Israel gone

Look, I dont want to keep anyone under occupation. If Galilee Arabs will want to create their independent state or join Palestine or Syria or watever - they are most welcome, I dont mind.

They only control 60%

So occupation is not that harsh? How many percent they controled during Jordanian or Ottoman rule?

Besides Israel was recognized in 1988 so what in the world are you talking about? Israel is yet to recognize the palestinians

If they recognbize Israel in 1967 borders with minor changes, they will get the rest.

 

[500]

I would like some numbers here, since according to my knowledge there was never an official track of the number of inhabitants until the 18th century or so.

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Several genetic studies can prove you wrong. Let's ask Ariella Oppenheim

Funny that her genetical study showed relation between Palestinians and Jews and u are trying to prove that Jews are alien to region

First send ethiopians home, they don't belong there.

There are many black Palestinians too. Lets send them back to Africa.

Second, upwards 70% of the jews arriving from Russia are recent converts through the mother and hence are not semetic and should also be sent home.

Nonsense. The ratio is oposite. I personally know two Palestinian Arabs who have European mothers, they also should be expelled because of it?

Third, a large part of the Ashkenazim are white slavs, some have traces of their semetic ancestry through the Y chromosom, many don't, send them home.

Average European Jew is closely related to average Moroccan Jew for example. Anyway today most of Jewish couples are mixed.

 

[sergente rehan]

There will be no peace btw Mulsims and Jews till the end of the world. We have tried it in the past and i'm not talking about israel, Palestine or arab nations.....you have to read the entire Muslim history....from past 600 and plus years we are trying to do peace agreements but jews always stab in your back. This is the reality so we have to face these facts.