The Rafale Factor and Options for the PAF

[ziaulislam]

IMO we may be able to squeeze in a few more F-16s on our own if US allows. If we are lucky, US might release CSF and maybe we see more BLK 52s or BLK 70/72(maybe I am being too optimistic). But a new platform no way in hell with current economic conditions.

So basically 18 b52 at 2 billion dollars with no antiship missles no long range standoff weapons or anti radiation weapons and probably no new generation BVRs or aim9x...
Is it worth it?
Even if china is 20 years behind USA..this 2020 and b52 is from early 2000s

Anything less than aim9x aim 120d and b72 isnt worth it ..given aim120d is at ita final leg in production anyway

 

[Haris Ali2140]

So basically 18 b52 at 2 billion dollars with no antiship missles no long range standoff weapons or anti radiation weapons and probably no new generation BVRs or aim9x...
Is it worth it?
Even if china is 20 years behind USA..this 2020 and b52 is from early 2000s

Anything less than aim9x aim 120d and b72 isnt worth it ..given aim120d is at ita final leg in production anyway

I
If US does not give us the above items then:
What will be the alternative???
Why not spent money evolving Thunder from LCA into MWF???

 

[blain2]

Totally Incorrect Information.

Mig 35 & J10 are stealth fighters ? Really ? ( Not even Russia or China, the OEMs have Ever..classified Mig 35 / J10 as "Stealth" fighters.)

Thats news to me.

With due respect the correct way of representation is :

VLO > F22
LO > F35 , J20 , Su 57

NONE of 4th or 4++ Gen including rafale is LO/VLO which means stealth. The word "Stealth" and "Fourth Generation" cant go in the SAME sentence.

Some Read : https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijap/2018/5435837/

Various low observable technologies for an aircraft have been utilized to reduce radar cross section (RCS) to avoid detection by radars and have become a vital design goal of a tactical aircraft. The shape of the aircraft is the most important factor, and in general, low observable performance is targeted at a high frequency region, such as the X band [1]. On the other hand, preliminary researches on the detection of a low RCS aircraft using the radars in a low frequency region have been attempted . In the low frequency, radars can be designed to be installed on the ground or on sea vessels since the size of radar is relatively larger compared to a high frequency system.

His point is they have some stealth/LO characteristics but then he clarifies correctly which aircraft firmly sit in 5th gen. LO/VLO are technical details that are not important to the layperson. Overall an accurate and valid write-up. Keep in mind he is a former PAF officer, not a professional researcher/journalist.

 

[Chanakyaa]

His point is they have some stealth/LO characteristics but then he clarifies correctly which aircraft firmly sit in 5th gen. LO/VLO are technical details that are not important to the layperson. Overall an accurate and valid write-up. Keep in mind he is a former PAF officer, not a professional researcher/journalist.

Mig35 and J10 have LO characteristics ?
Can You elaborate over which LO charecteristics ,if at all, are present on these jets ?

IMHO, Only two jets in 4++ Gen, considerable for "some" LO characteristics are EJ and Rafale.

 

[The Eagle]

Mig35 and J10 have LO characteristics ?
Can You elaborate over which LO charecteristics ,if at all, are present on these jets ?

IMHO, Only two jets in 4++ Gen, considerable for "some" LO characteristics are EJ and Rafale.

I will only say that if characteristic of any of suspected ACs aren't available in public domain or non uniform or irrelevant person; doesn't make them 3.5 gen ACs. The Men in uniform, especially since they remains part of service and could have first hand knowledge of product for their study only, does know the capability of platform. To make it easier, J-10 & MiG-35 are heavily invested platforms and both OEM takes pride to showcase them. Don't you think that despite being single engine, China on one hand continued with J-10 A, B & C and even we saw one with TVC engine demonstration. Why single engine J-10 for TVC demonstration? but that was for the quality & trust into a product. To begin with such argument, one needs to start with explaining the LO Characteristics in first place.

 

[Crixus]

The best option for Pakistan to counter Rafale , S-400 and huge military is to increase India's dependency on Pakistan economically that will force India to change all dynamics ....but creating such dependencies needs change in mindset

You are 200 million strong population and huge market for Indian businessmen and create their dependenxy on Pakistan so that any hostility by Kndia with Pakistan will cost them in profits ......

This idea is too big for pdf warriors to grasp

 

[Haris Ali2140]

The best option for Pakistan to counter Rafale , S-400 and huge military is to increase India's dependency on Pakistan economically that will force India to change all dynamics ....but creating such dependencies needs change in mindset

You are 200 million strong population kaure Indian businessmen and create their dependenxy on Pakistan so that any hostility by Kndia with Pakistan will cost them in profits ......

This idea is too big for pdf warriors to grasp

No its too big for anyone to grasp.

 

[Crixus]

Think about India and China.
Fought wars with no brotherly relations but still not a single byllet fired since 1967.... think why if you can

No its too big for anyone to grasp.

 

[danger007]

Let me take you back 10 years in history when Mig21 was superior against our F16s and Mki was everything in skies for you guys, until proven otherwise on 27th last year. Wars and battles are won by courage and belief not machine alone. Our greatest assets are our Jwans not the machines but we keep our swords and horses ready for the day. I am not going to compare the size here who's nose is bigger but to educate you about our goal and mission. Goal is to conquer India and mission is get every thing in tool box that will make it possible. We are the nation who believes in One Allah and his last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We are the one who will fight Gazwa Hind we are the blessed lions of Allah.
So my friend you need not to worry about what we will buy or make against your tools of war. We know best what's the best and how to fight.
One advise to you follow the truth before it comes and finds you. And truth is Allah and his deen.

Am not sure why do you bring Allah into the thread.. God got nothing to do with wars .. don't bring Gods into your fight..

 

[Chanakyaa]

I will only say that if characteristic of any of suspected ACs aren't available in public domain or non uniform or irrelevant person; doesn't make them 3.5 gen ACs. The Men in uniform, especially since they remains part of service and could have first hand knowledge of product for their study only, does know the capability of platform. To make it easier, J-10 & MiG-35 are heavily invested platforms and both OEM takes pride to showcase them. Don't you think that despite being single engine, China on one hand continued with J-10 A, B & C and even we saw one with TVC engine demonstration. Why single engine J-10 for TVC demonstration? but that was for the quality & trust into a product. To begin with such argument, one needs to start with explaining the LO Characteristics in first place.

Well, I dont think TVC has anything at all to do with LO. TVC infact is employed even by the harriers and First generation Rockets. So the Technology itself and its application is nothing new.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_jet_fighter

The exact characteristics of fifth-generation jet fighters are controversial and vague, with Lockheed Martin defining them as having all-aspect stealth even when armed, low-probability-of-intercept radar (LPIR), high-performance airframes, advanced avionics features, and highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the battlespace for situation awareness

 

[NA71]

The best option for Pakistan to counter Rafale , S-400 and huge military is to increase India's dependency on Pakistan economically that will force India to change all dynamics ....but creating such dependencies needs change in mindset

You are 200 million strong population and huge market for Indian businessmen and create their dependenxy on Pakistan so that any hostility by Kndia with Pakistan will cost them in profits ......

This idea is too big for pdf warriors to grasp

yes the Idea is too big....very difficult to understand....please also give some good ideas to Amit and Modi.....they committed to Indian disintegration......

 

[The Eagle]

Well, I dont think TVC has anything at all to do with LO. TVC infact is employed even by the harriers and First generation Rockets. So the Technology itself and its application is nothing new.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_jet_fighter

The exact characteristics of fifth-generation jet fighters are controversial and vague, with Lockheed Martin defining them as having all-aspect stealth even when armed, low-probability-of-intercept radar (LPIR), high-performance airframes, advanced avionics features, and highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the battlespace for situation awareness

You missed the point of J-10 TVC demonstration actually.

However, does LO defines only 5th Gen ACs? The equipment on board and some other characteristics may come in handy by 4th generation planes for LO category or not?

 

[Chanakyaa]

You missed the point of J-10 TVC demonstration actually.

However, does LO defines only 5th Gen ACs? The equipment on board and some other characteristics may come in handy by 4th generation planes for LO category or not?

I totally Agree your second Point Mate. F117 and B2 are the prime examples. I would love to stand corrected, But I doubt TVC has anything to do with "Fifth" Generation or LO.

Are you suggesting a reduction of IR Signature ?

 

[nomi007]

PAF to upgrade all current F-16s to F-16V standard.
2nd upgrade all F-16 bk-52 to bk-72 standard.
Induct 1 sq of Euro typhoon tranche 3 in inventory.

but all these need resources, which PAK don't have sadly.

 

[Crixus]

Actually both of they are not looking to counter any Pakistani weapon as discussed here in ghis thread and dont you think its good for Pakistan if India disintegrates ........

yes the Idea is too big....very difficult to understand....please also give some good ideas to Amit and Modi.....they committed to Indian disintegration......