The Rafale Factor and Options for the PAF

[StormBreaker]

Don't you think we would need to know and be aware that a threat is approaching first? That is, when and at which direction should we start jamming? In my opinion, that will come from the combo of AWACS and ground based radars. First we need to detect them and then we decide to what to do ... i.e. jam them or something else.

So the question of replacing the AWACS with SOJs don't arise, as they are not mutually exclusive, in my humble opinion.

I was purposefully dragging his conversation to bring it to this point but you did it directly

AWACS are the most crucial assets of PAF, we must consider upsizing our AWACS fleet by inducting at least 3 more.

Don't you think we would need to know and be aware that a threat is approaching first? That is, when and at which direction should we start jamming? In my opinion, that will be done by the combo of AWACS and ground based radars. First we need to detect them and then we decide what to do ... i.e. jam them or something else.

So the question of replacing the AWACS with SOJs don't arise, as they are not mutually exclusive, in my humble opinion.

Oh and do consider giving this a read.

Is Boeing E-3 AWACS too old or is it good enough to serve in PAF ?

Check this link

https://www.key.aero/article/uk-sentry-fleet-halved-less-12-months

@Signalian

 

[aliyusuf]

Is Boeing E-3 AWACS too old or is it good enough to serve in PAF ?

AFAIK the E-3D houses the APY-2 PESA radar. It provides detection ranges to fighter sized targets from medium to high altitudes at around 650km and same the targets at low altitudes at around 400km. As per public domain net figures.

It all depends on the condition of the Boeing-707 platforms and the costs associated to purchase and refurbishment. But above all, what strings?

 

[StormBreaker]

AFAIK the E-3D houses the APY-2 PESA radar. It provides detection ranges to fighter sized targets from medium to high altitudes at around 650km and same the targets at low altitudes at around 400km. As per public domain net figures.

It all depends on the condition of the Boeing-707 platforms and the costs associated to purchase and refurbishment. But above all, what strings?

Strings ? Don’t think so any...
The only hurdle would be the software change with respect to PAF

 

[Invictus.inc]

Not taking into account the financials, i would order 36 SU-35s and a squadron of J-20. The squadron of J-20 doesn’t have to be 18 in number. 12 would do the work.

Add a couple of cheese burgers along with fries & a bottle of atleast a 100 year old French wine

Send the bill over to the finance ministry....From what I've heard they have plenty of dollars to spare

 

[aliyusuf]

Strings ? Don’t think so any...
The only hurdle would be the software change with respect to PAF

Although these are being replaced by the more potent AESA versions in the west, it still matches the very best elsewhere. Especially so in our immediate theater. I don't believe the west would allow Pakistan to purchase these force multiplying assets at a reasonably good price and gain further ascendancy over their strategic partner in the region ... unless some severe conditions are fulfilled by Pakistan.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Don't you think we would need to know and be aware that a threat is approaching first? That is, when and at which direction should we start jamming? In my opinion, that will be done by the combo of AWACS and ground based radars. First we need to detect them and then we decide what to do ... i.e. jam them or something else.

So the question of replacing the AWACS with SOJs don't arise, as they are not mutually exclusive, in my humble opinion.

He suggested to buy more AWACS but I said that we should put more focus on EW warfare as we already have enough AWACS.

 

[aliyusuf]

He suggested to buy more AWACS but I said that we should put more focus on EW warfare as we already have enough AWACS.

Lets say we need both.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Lets say we need both.

We NEED both. That's what I suggested in my first post.

 

[StormBreaker]

Add a couple of cheese burgers along with fries & a bottle of atleast a 100 year old French wine

Send the bill over to the finance ministry....From what I've heard they have plenty of dollars to spare

Not pursuing weapons for national defense would be the highest form of treason towards the nation by respective procurement department or government not releasing or allocating funds

 

[raja786]

Su 30 mki is still best fighter plane in south Asia. Sir.

It was a missile range game which f16 taken advantage... ( su30 mki was carrying r77 missile with maximum range with 80km and f16 100 km.. But still su 30mki successfully managed to dodged the incoming missiles)

Now with latest r 77 -1 missiles ( 110 km), the range issue has resolved.

I will repeat, against su 30mki and rafale ... PAF is having Only one decent fighter aircraft f16 in their inventory.

Even I m not counting upgraded mirage 2000 ( upgraded with mica missiles), mig 29 fighter ( upgraded), and hal tejas mk1a ( the same comparable to jf 17 block 3)....

PAF should go for EF or j10b

Let me take you back 10 years in history when Mig21 was superior against our F16s and Mki was everything in skies for you guys, until proven otherwise on 27th last year. Wars and battles are won by courage and belief not machine alone. Our greatest assets are our Jwans not the machines but we keep our swords and horses ready for the day. I am not going to compare the size here who's nose is bigger but to educate you about our goal and mission. Goal is to conquer India and mission is get every thing in tool box that will make it possible. We are the nation who believes in One Allah and his last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We are the one who will fight Gazwa Hind we are the blessed lions of Allah.
So my friend you need not to worry about what we will buy or make against your tools of war. We know best what's the best and how to fight.
One advise to you follow the truth before it comes and finds you. And truth is Allah and his deen.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

That is understandable, however any new fighter which is more capable than F-16 in all aspects, will change the dynamics of F-16 politics and its attached strings with respect to PAF. It would be a fresh change to see PAF divert towards any other aircraft, moving its inclination away from F-16.

You are aware that the Tranche-1 is equipped with (Vietnam era?) Sparrow missiles, perhaps Sky Flash.
It does not support AIM-120C AMRAAM, nor does it support Meteor. There are no plans to add such support.
Austria is considering retiring their Tranche-1 Eurofighters and replacing them with new fighters and this apparently is cheaper.

 

[Signalian]

You are aware that the Tranche-1 is equipped with (Vietnam era?) Sparrow missiles, perhaps Sky Flash.
It does not support AIM-120C AMRAAM, nor does it support Meteor. There are no plans to add such support.
Austria is considering retiring their Tranche-1 Eurofighters and replacing them with new fighters and this apparently is cheaper.

I have mentioned in some post above already that Tranche-3 is what PAF should be looking into.

Not taking into account the financials, i would order 36 SU-35s and a squadron of J-20. The squadron of J-20 doesn’t have to be 18 in number. 12 would do the work.

Place 1 SU-35 squadron at Masroor, 1 squadron of SU-35 at Peshawar, and the J-20 squadron could go to Kohat or Samungli

I think that financials have been used towards acquisition of JF-17 squadrons also. Probably R&D and up-gradation of JF-17. Could be a hint that PAF may go towards a new aircraft type after all JF-17 squadrons have been inducted. Block-III induction is yet to take place.

 

[StormBreaker]

I have mentioned in some post above already that Tranche-3 is what PAF should be looking into.


I think that financials have been used towards acquisition of JF-17 squadrons also. Probably R&D and up-gradation of JF-17. Could be a hint that PAF may go towards a new aircraft type after all JF-17 squadrons have been inducted. Block-III induction is yet to take place.

I do pray you are right, as well as our Brother Khafee.

Do you think we will go above 50 for Block 3? Further Blocks have been hinted again and again by different personnel indirectly during interviews as well. If Block 3 induction or Block 4 stretches till 2026-27, we might actually say good bye to any new platform or Greet J-31 in our colors but limited numbers, To replace mirages as well as complement Block 3.

 

[Signalian]

I was purposefully dragging his conversation to bring it to this point but you did it directly

AWACS are the most crucial assets of PAF, we must consider upsizing our AWACS fleet by inducting at least 3 more.


Oh and do consider giving this a read.

Is Boeing E-3 AWACS too old or is it good enough to serve in PAF ?

Check this link

https://www.key.aero/article/uk-sentry-fleet-halved-less-12-months

@Signalian

If the current AWACS (Erieye and ZDK-03) are getting the job done and they can be upgraded in future, then trying out E-3 doesnt make sense.

I do pray you are right, as well as our Brother Khafee.

Do you think we will go above 50 for Block 3? Further Blocks have been hinted again and again by different personnel indirectly during interviews as well. If Block 3 induction or Block 4 stretches till 2026-27, we might actually say good bye to any new platform or Greet J-31 in our colors but limited numbers, To replace mirages as well as complement Block 3.

JF-17 has eloquently replaced A-5 and F-7P (a few P/PG Sqds still remain). JF-17 is also slated to replace Mirage-III/V, which should occur at some stage, otherwise a new aircraft type would be desirable.

A research Question for members here who like to compare aircrafts.

How is JF-17 capable enough to replace Mirage-III and Mirage-V in strike role while being aptly able of carrying all SOW and proving its range, payload, delivery altitude and other features are better than Mirage-III/V in every aspect?
1. How has PAF addressed the needs in JF-17 Block III to fully replace Mirage-III/V, while also considering the replacement of Mirage-V ROSE II, ROSE-III squadrons ?
2. How can future blocks of JF-17 (e.g. IV) come on par with F-16 Block 52+ in range and payload, and if the new JF-17 block can also compete with F-16 Block 70 in all avionics features?
3. How can a future block (Or Block III) JF-17 match the EW/Radar/Avionics/ECM suite of Rafale in Air to Air and Air to Ground roles, even if it cannot match range and payload ?

There should be a topic on this actually. This will narrow down a lot of issues.

Don't you think we would need to know and be aware that a threat is approaching first? That is, when and at which direction should we start jamming? In my opinion, that will be done by the combo of AWACS and ground based radars. First we need to detect them and then we decide what to do ... i.e. jam them or something else.

So the question of replacing the AWACS with SOJs don't arise, as they are not mutually exclusive, in my humble opinion.

Since you are talking about detection and radars.

If AWACS detects a certain IAF flight formation vectoring towards some location inside Pakistan, would you rather have JF-17 scrambled as ADF or F-16 or both ?

Secondly, if there is a strike mission, will JF-17 Block-II be more suitable with its PD Radar or F-16 or JF-17 Block-III with its AESA entering IAF skies? or would you use a combination of all these aicrafts to compliment each other and why ?

Replace AWACS with Stand Off Jammers.

Stand Off Jamming can be achieved by dedicated EW pod, e.g. ALQ-99 or equivalent Russian/Chinese etc variant, on a fighter aircraft.

Its best to have a dedicated variant of JF-17 as EW aircraft so it has same or better range than the contemporary JF-17 which will be used for carrying out strikes, the EW JF-17 can escort them in enemy skies and perform jamming activities. Otherwise increase the number of DA-20.

Replacing AWACS with SOJ came in ur mind through utilization of EB-52H perhaps. PAF also converted a C-130 for such a role in WOT.

 

[airmarshal]

New f16 arent cheap and arent worth it..you can get typhoon or rafale at that cost

Can you please compare prices of Typhoon and F-16s and then come back here to make arguments?