The Quran learning made mandatory for university students in Punjab

[Goritoes]

Would someone like Abu Bakr (ra) or Umar (ra) say the same thing? Islam doesn't need intermediators, we have had it, been there done that. We concluded that we are not another Catholic Church just with turbans.


That's the talk of the people who doesn't want people to actually read the Quran. Quran is for them just like gospel singing in the church. Just recite it with a nice voice and you good, don't need to actually know what you are reciting. That's the reason why every turban wearer can come up and declare these and that haram and halal, because nobody questions him. Tell me, how can the "laymen" (there is no such thing as a priest in Islamic religion) get salvation? By following some random guy blindly? We can see to what this leads all over the Islamic world for centuries now. We have people knowing the Quran by heart but not knowing its meaning. The "results" of those decade long "studies" are ridiculous. Mullahs spending years to describe the types of menstrual blood or how to pray on the Day of Judgement. This is what the Ummah needs!


This paragraph shows all the problems of the Ummah. Don't read the Quran, you will go astray! Again, something major companions like Utham (ra) or Ali (ra) would say? The Quran itself says that the revelation is in a clear language:

Surah Ibrahim - 4 - Quran.com

وما ارسلنا من رسول الا بلسان قومه ليبين لهم فيضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء وهو العزيز الحكيم

quran.com

View attachment 740097

The first followers of the Prophet (PBUH) weren't Harvard astrophysicists, they were common people, poor people, opressed people without a diploma in Arabic language. But 1400 years later we need a decade long study for each and every Ayat revealed to mankind? Give me a break!


Quran Arabic is easier than the 3000 dialects of Arabic spoken today. What do you want to achieve? Scare people into not reading Quran before consulting 300 personal Mullahs? Nobody reads that book, all we do is: "According to Imam X", "Shaykh Y said", "Ibn $_FILL_IN_IMPORTANT_NAME was of the opinion that", name-dropping 24/7! A few years back I had a discussion in the mosque with another guy and he tried to slience me by saying: "Do you know all the words for 'lion' in Arabic?". That's the level of discussion we are having right now.


Islam is simple, so go with the simple solution. No need for over- academization, no need to scare people. You are basically saying without a fancy Mullah we will go astray, Quran is not an random order of words nobody understands!


Again: people are scared into believing that actually studying that book would lead them to gumrahi, so they are just cool with the fact that they know it by heart or can recite it perfectly.


See, I know what these Mullahs/"scholars" fabricate all day long and no, I am not impressed. I can get you a list of weird fatwas from those esteemed scholars who are more known than the Prophet (PBUH) himself. Fabricating rulings on topics where the legislator was silent is not an achievement, it's an act of degeneration of former nations. In fact the Quran is against priesthood!

View attachment 740111

Surah At-Tawbah - 31 - Quran.com

They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none bu...

quran.com

The spirit of Islam is not about "that and that is forbidden" and "that and that is allowed".


Agreed.


Those great scholars were also known for takfiririzing for not having the same opinion as them. They even went to so far and prohibited marrying from another Fiqh let alone takfired them. We don't need a new priest caste, we need to go back to the roots. Overcomplicated mullahism made Muslims mad and degenerate.


Agreed, just keep it simple in regards to Islam and its teaching.

I think before we do anything in regards to Islam, we need to check our hearts first. Do we really want guidance and salvation? Or is Islam just an ego trip for you (generally speaking not adressing you @krash)? Many of the discussions online and offline have only one purpose: to get the moral/religious high ground, it's not about actually striving for the truth, it's likea rap battle to put the other one down and ridicule him / manipulate him. Everybody needs to check his heart first, what I am trying to achieve? Am I pleasing the lord or is my attitude and my behaviour self-centred? I think this is the most important of all things: pure intentions.


TL;DR:
- Islam is simple
- Mullahs are basically useless
- Not every aspect of life needs a PhD thesis like manual from a fancy name
- Use your own brain
- READ

I would give a Positive rating to you if i had that option for your post.

Funny thing is that we know Rasool Allah was a special kind of human, so can give him a Pass when it comes to actually interpretating the verses, but Abu Bakr, Umar , Uthman and Ali RA to all, were all from various backgrounds and professions, none of them were masters of the religion there forefather bears, and yet when they took charge they were not only the Political leaders of the Muslims but also Spiritual Leaders as well, Last I checked none of them holds a Oxford Degree but everyone of them holds a unique quality among himself when it comes to understanding the religion and Quran.

 

[313ghazi]

Take it you've never been to the place and not met many from there? Islamic Studies is a mandatory course. Quite a few other electives on Islam are also offered. One does not have to worry about "what Quran will they teach" since their approach to every subject is strictly academic in nature.

Never had the pleasure. The only interaction i've had with people from LUMS is on Twitter and I can't say i've been too impressed. Mind you Twitter is hardly a good measure of anyone.

 

[EasyNow]

Would someone like Abu Bakr (ra) or Umar (ra) say the same thing? Islam doesn't need intermediators, we have had it, been there done that. We concluded that we are not another Catholic Church just with turbans.


That's the talk of the people who doesn't want people to actually read the Quran. Quran is for them just like gospel singing in the church. Just recite it with a nice voice and you good, don't need to actually know what you are reciting. That's the reason why every turban wearer can come up and declare these and that haram and halal, because nobody questions him. Tell me, how can the "laymen" (there is no such thing as a priest in Islamic religion) get salvation? By following some random guy blindly? We can see to what this leads all over the Islamic world for centuries now. We have people knowing the Quran by heart but not knowing its meaning. The "results" of those decade long "studies" are ridiculous. Mullahs spending years to describe the types of menstrual blood or how to pray on the Day of Judgement. This is what the Ummah needs!


This paragraph shows all the problems of the Ummah. Don't read the Quran, you will go astray! Again, something major companions like Uthman (ra) or Ali (ra) would say? The Quran itself says that the revelation is in a clear language:

Surah Ibrahim - 4 - Quran.com

وما ارسلنا من رسول الا بلسان قومه ليبين لهم فيضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء وهو العزيز الحكيم

quran.com

View attachment 740097

The first followers of the Prophet (PBUH) weren't Harvard astrophysicists, they were common people, poor people, opressed people without a diploma in Arabic language. But 1400 years later we need a decade long study for each and every Ayat revealed to mankind? Give me a break!


Quran Arabic is easier than the 3000 dialects of Arabic spoken today. What do you want to achieve? Scare people into not reading Quran before consulting 300 personal Mullahs? Nobody reads that book, all we do is: "According to Imam X", "Shaykh Y said", "Ibn $_FILL_IN_IMPORTANT_NAME was of the opinion that", name-dropping 24/7! A few years back I had a discussion in the mosque with another guy and he tried to slience me by saying: "Do you know all the words for 'lion' in Arabic?". That's the level of discussion we are having right now.


Islam is simple, so go with the simple solution. No need for over- academization, no need to scare people. You are basically saying without a fancy Mullah we will go astray, Quran is not an random order of words nobody understands!


Again: people are scared into believing that actually studying that book would lead them to gumrahi, so they are just cool with the fact that they know it by heart or can recite it perfectly.


See, I know what these Mullahs/"scholars" fabricate all day long and no, I am not impressed. I can get you a list of weird fatwas from those esteemed scholars who are more known than the Prophet (PBUH) himself. Fabricating rulings on topics where the legislator was silent is not an achievement, it's an act of degeneration of former nations. In fact the Quran is against priesthood!

View attachment 740111

Surah At-Tawbah - 31 - Quran.com

They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none bu...

quran.com

The spirit of Islam is not about "that and that is forbidden" and "that and that is allowed".


Agreed.


Those great scholars were also known for takfiririzing for not having the same opinion as them. They even went to so far and prohibited marrying from another Fiqh let alone takfired them. We don't need a new priest caste, we need to go back to the roots. Overcomplicated mullahism made Muslims mad and degenerate.


Agreed, just keep it simple in regards to Islam and its teaching.

I think before we do anything in regards to Islam, we need to check our hearts first. Do we really want guidance and salvation? Or is Islam just an ego trip for you (generally speaking not adressing you @krash)? Many of the discussions online and offline have only one purpose: to get the moral/religious high ground, it's not about actually striving for the truth, it's likea rap battle to put the other one down and ridicule him / manipulate him. Everybody needs to check his heart first, what I am trying to achieve? Am I pleasing the lord or is my attitude and my behaviour self-centred? I think this is the most important of all things: pure intentions.


TL;DR:
- Islam is simple
- Mullahs are basically useless
- Not every aspect of life needs a PhD thesis like manual from a fancy name
- Use your own brain
- READ

Have you read and understood the whole Qur'an?

 

[EasyNow]

I would give a Positive rating to you if i had that option for your post.

Funny thing is that we know Rasool Allah was a special kind of human, so can give him a Pass when it comes to actually interpretating the verses, but Abu Bakr, Umar , Uthman and Ali RA to all, were all from various backgrounds and professions, none of them were masters of the religion there forefather bears, and yet when they took charge they were not only the Political leaders of the Muslims but also Spiritual Leaders as well, Last I checked none of them holds a Oxford Degree but everyone of them holds a unique quality among himself when it comes to understanding the religion and Quran.

Both of your comments reflect the typically semi literate, shallow understanding of Islam prevalent in mainstream Asian society.

Actually during the rule of Abu Bakr RA is when the Qur'an was compiled in the first place.

Within 20 years of the prophet's passing there were already problems in interpretation and the language had to be adjusted. So I don't know why you project this simplistic, naive idea of an easy to understand Qur'an.

If you look at history you will see differing interpretation of Quranic verses from the very beginning. Laws were improvised by the first caliphs to fit the circumstances. There is no such thing as a simple, black and white understanding of Qur'an.

And lastly anyone who has actually read Qur'an would not say it is easy to understand. The words and phrases used are no longer in use today. The translations are debated throughout the world. This is why to this day, you will find knowledgeable sheikhs disagreeing on the meaning of verses. It's ridiculous how simple you make it sound.

 

[Iltutmish]

Have you read and understood the whole Qur'an?

What is unclear to you? Or did someone say that the Quran is unclear and better just to sing it (!) than to understand it?

Both of your comments reflect the typically semi literate, shallow understanding of Islam prevalent in mainstream Asian society.

Be nice! And most Asians have a personal mullah who tells them to breathe.

Actually during the rule of Abu Bakr RA is when the Qur'an was compiled in the first place.

Yes.

Within 20 years of the prophet's passing there were already problems in interpretation and the language had to be adjusted.

Language evolves, yes. But corpus remains intact.

If you look at history you will see differing interpretation of Quranic verses from the very beginning. Laws were improvised by the first caliphs to fit the circumstances. There is no such thing as a simple, black and white understanding of Qur'an.

In other words: there is no understanding of the Quran. Anything goes, just get a random turban guy and stick with him. Right? This is the spirit of Islam? Have a guy telling you what to do and what is allowed and what not?

This is why to this day, you will find knowledgeable sheikhs disagreeing on the meaning of verses. It's ridiculous how simple you make it sound.

To this day you find "knowledgebale" sheikhs overcomplicating the religion and not coming to an agreement because they would be useless afterwards. Who needs mullahs, when everything is clear? Ever thought about that? Or are you blinded by their fancy costumes, beards and turbans?

Everything was said, the ink is dry, the finalhood of the Prophet (PBUH) confirmed. Everything else is just mullah-worship in the ugliest form.

When you give authority to random mortals, you will get people like ISIS and friends. Who are you to condemn them, they also have fancy shaikhs knowing Ibn Taymiyya, Abu Hanifa and all the other dead men people praise more than the Prophet (PBUH) himself? According to our wise all-knowing mullahs, you aren't even allowed to speak about Islam without having a fancy "Ijaza" from them. So please abstain from speaking about Islam. Show me your creds first.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

The Quran learning made mandatory for university students in Punjab
Students will not be awarded degrees if they do not study the Quran with Urdu translation

Published: June 15, 2020 11:42 Ashfaq Ahmed, Assistant Editor

Chaudry Mohammad Sarwar, left, Governor of Punjab, has issued a notification to make the Quran learning mandatory for the university students in Punjab province of Pakistan. File Photo Image Credit: Gulf News/archive
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Dubai: In a surprise move, Governor of the Punjab Province of Pakistan Chaudhry Mohammad Sarwar has made the teaching of the Quran with translation mandatory in all universities in the province.

Governor Sarwar has issued the notification on Sunday making it mandatory for all the students in the universities (except non-Muslims) to learn the Quran with Urdu translation. The notification states that a student will not be awarded a degree if he or she does not study the Quran — the holy book of Muslims — with the Urdu translation.

“We have decided to make it compuslory to for the university students to learning the Quran with translation. It is a unanimous decisions of vice-chancellors of all the univerities in the province,” Governor Sarwar tweeted in Urdu.

Notification
Governor Sarwar issued the notification in his capacity as the Chancellor of all the universities in the province. In Pakistan, Governor of a province also acts as Chancellor of universities in the province and has the authority to make decisions related to courses and regulations in any university in a province.

“Lecturers in all universities of Punjab will teach the Quran with translation to all students,” said the notification. It added that the holy Book would be taught in addition to Islamic studies, which is already being taught at universities.

Governor Sarwar said that success in the world and the hereafter can only be achieved through proper implementation on the guidelines of the Holy Quran, Geo TV reported.

According to the notification of the committee, the Quran course may have equivalent to one credit hour per year as the relevant university feels appropriate.

The notification says that the assessment of the Quran course must require each candidate to pass/fail. The student may be further assigned a grade as in any other credit subject, if University feels necessary/appropriate. ”As a substitute, the non-Muslim students may be offered the subject of Ethics.

Vice Chancellors agree
In April, the Punjab governor had formed a seven-member committee of vice-chancellors to submit recommendations on how to make the teaching of the Quran with translation compulsory in all universities in the province. All the vice-chancellors agreed to the proposal of the governor.

He told the media on Sunday that the learning of the Quran with translation has been made mandatory because the Book is a complete code of life and its better understanding with translation would help improve the lives of people.

Jamaat-e-Islami influence
Most universities in Punjab have great influence of students from Islami-Jamiat Talaba-- an Islamic students outfit of famus religious group Jamaat-e-Islami. It has been there long-standing demand to include Islamic studies and the Quran teachings in the univeristies.

In Pakistan, Muslims children start learning the Quran as they start attending the primary school. However, they are taught the Quran only in Arabic without translation.

"The Quran learning with translation should be made mandatory in the primary school instead of making the university students attend the Quran classes. It seems the Governor Punjab has taken the decision to win support of the Islamic groups which are quite strong in the province, said a top official.

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pak...-for-university-students-in-punjab-1.72051304

Extremely good move...a thorough education of all the world's major religions make for a well rounded human being

 

[EasyNow]

What is unclear to you? Or did someone say that the Quran is unclear and better just to sing it (!) than to understand it?


Be nice!


Yes.


Language evolves, yes. But corpus remains intact.


In other words: there is no understanding of the Quran. Anything goes, just get a random turban guy and stick with him. Right? This is the spirit of Islam? Have a guy telling you what to do and what is allowed and what not?


To this day you find "knowledgebale" sheikhs overcomplicating the religion and not coming to an agreement because they would be useless afterwards. Who needs mullahs, when everything is clear? Ever thought about that? Or are you blinded by their fancy costumes, beards and turbans?

Everything was said, the ink is dry, the finalhood of the Prophet (PBUH) confirmed. Everything else is just mullah-worship in the ugliest form.

When you give authority to random mortals, you will get people like ISIS and friends. Who are you to condemn them, they also have fancy shaikhs knowing Ibn Taymiyya, Abu Hanifa and all the other dead men people praise more than the Prophet (PBUH) himself? According to our wise all-knowing mullahs, you aren't even allowed to speak about Islam without having a fancy "Ijaza" from them. So please abstain from speaking about Islam. Show me your creds first.

After all that I notice you didn't answer my question to you. If you had read Qur'an you would know it is not simple to understand.

According to our wise all-knowing mullahs, you aren't even allowed to speak about Islam without having a fancy "Ijaza" from them. So please abstain from speaking about Islam. Show me your creds first.

You've proven my point. You say every person can read and understand Qur'an but when an everyman says something about it you want my credentials?


But honestly I don't want to be rude and sorry if it sounds that way. But I believe a person can spend their whole life reading Qur'an and they will not understand anything about Islam.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

One needs to be extremely proficient in 7th century Arabic right to understand the true meaning of the Quran? This is one reason Islam seems so inaccessible to non-Muslims

 

[Cherub786]

One needs to be extremely proficient in 7th century Arabic right to understand the true meaning of the Quran? This is one reason Islam seems so inaccessible to non-Muslims

Not really, you can get a basic understanding of the Quran by reading a translation in your native language. However, if you want a more deep and scholarly understanding you obviously have to know classical Arabic, just like if you want to be an expert on the Vedas you have to know Sanskrit, if you want to master the Torah you have to know Hebrew, and if you want to specialize in the Christian Scripture you have to be acquainted with Koine Greek.

And the Quran is only one aspect of Islam. Another source for learning about Islam is studying the biography and life of the Prophet Muhammad - known as the Sirah literature.

 

[Iltutmish]

After all that I notice you didn't answer my question to you.

I read the Quran multiple times during my life time in multiple languages (Urdu, English, German and Arabic with a dictionary).

If you had read Qur'an you would know it is not simple to understand.

No, it's not.

What you are saying is that Islam cannot be understood and if this is the case, anything, literally anything goes. Just have a mullah telling you fairytales and be done with it. Grave-worship, suicide attacks, cursing the Sahaba are all things invented by "scholars" of the present and past. So what do you do? Do you condemn ISIS? Why? They also have fancy scholars on their side giving fancy fatwas that it's ok to rape and murder?

One needs to be extremely proficient in 7th century Arabic right to understand the true meaning of the Quran? This is one reason Islam seems so inaccessible to non-Muslims

Priests have one purpose in their life: overcomplicating religion til nobody knows anything anymore. It's like a doctor saying to you that his job is so super-complex but most of the time he is just treating runny noses and headaches. Every profession needs a raison d'etre.

We have computers folks, maybe 1000 years ago you needed a guy telling you how to slaughter properly or how to pronounce the letter Ayn correctly, but not today! People can read and write and have modern technology!

 

[Iltutmish]

You've proven my point. You say every person can read and understand Qur'an but when an everyman says something about it you want my credentials?

No. You said Quran is for the "experts", so you shouldn't comment either on that topic.

But honestly I don't want to be rude and sorry if it sounds that way. But I believe a person can spend their whole life reading Qur'an and they will not understand anything about Islam.

And what is your personal conclusion about this finding? Anything goes or is there no Islam left in our time?

 

[krash]

Would someone like Abu Bakr (ra) or Umar (ra) say the same thing? Islam doesn't need intermediators, we have had it, been there done that. We concluded that we are not another Catholic Church just with turbans.

This paragraph shows all the problems of the Ummah. Don't read the Quran, you will go astray! Again, something major companions like Uthman (ra) or Ali (ra) would say? The Quran itself says that the revelation is in a clear language:

Surah Ibrahim - 4 - Quran.com

وما ارسلنا من رسول الا بلسان قومه ليبين لهم فيضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء وهو العزيز الحكيم

quran.com

View attachment 740097

The first followers of the Prophet (PBUH) weren't Harvard astrophysicists, they were common people, poor people, opressed people without a diploma in Arabic language. But 1400 years later we need a decade long study for each and every Ayat revealed to mankind? Give me a break!

1) You've already been told that both Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA) and Hazrat Umar (RA) were taught directly under the tutelage of the Prophet (S.A.W), i.e. the Prophet (S.A.W) himself had explained everything to them. 2) And yet still they both regularly sought consult from those who knew better. The Prophet (S.A.W) himself explicitly advised the Sahabah to consult the Ummahat-ul-Momineen on matters of Deen after his passing. The Sahabah consulted Hazrat Ayesha (RA) the most out of them. There were others after them. All of whom were in fact equal to 'Harvard astrophysicists' in their respective field. 3) One of the very reasons to compile the Quran in a single text was to have a unified version in text and meaning after differences had started to appear shortly after the Prophet's (S.A.W) passing. These common people were native speakers of the language, not needing any diplomas. 4) Every Ayat ever revealed came through two intermediaries. The first explained it to the second before the second revealed it to the Sahabah. Not my words, these are the words of the second intermediary. This is all elementary knowledge in Islam.

Thanks for proving my point, though. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about and are even foolishly raising nonsensical arguments which have already been answered. You can't understand simple posts correctly, how will you understand the Quran?

That's the talk of the people who doesn't want people to actually read the Quran. Quran is for them just like gospel singing in the church. Just recite it with a nice voice and you good, don't need to actually know what you are reciting. That's the reason why every turban wearer can come up and declare these and that haram and halal, because nobody questions him. Tell me, how can the "laymen" (there is no such thing as a priest in Islamic religion) get salvation? By following some random guy blindly? We can see to what this leads all over the Islamic world for centuries now. We have people knowing the Quran by heart but not knowing its meaning. The "results" of those decade long "studies" are ridiculous. Mullahs spending years to describe the types of menstrual blood or how to pray on the Day of Judgement. This is what the Ummah needs!

What do you want to achieve? Scare people into not reading Quran before consulting 300 personal Mullahs? Nobody reads that book, all we do is: "According to Imam X", "Shaykh Y said", "Ibn $_FILL_IN_IMPORTANT_NAME was of the opinion that", name-dropping 24/7! A few years back I had a discussion in the mosque with another guy and he tried to slience me by saying: "Do you know all the words for 'lion' in Arabic?". That's the level of discussion we are having right now.

Pretty unintelligent paragraphs to type in response to the very post giving a detailed plan on how to understand the Quran and how you would not need to blindly follow anyone.

Quran Arabic is easier than the 3000 dialects of Arabic spoken today.

No it's not. Either educate yourself or grow enough integrity to admit your limits. Staying quiet is the easiest solution though.

Islam is simple, so go with the simple solution. No need for over- academization, no need to scare people. You are basically saying without a fancy Mullah we will go astray, Quran is not an random order of words nobody understands!

"Fancy Mullah".....Alright, I'll take you up on that offer. Please provide your expert opinion directly and solely sourced from the Quran on the following.

If I am saving to buy a house for my family to live in, is Zakat applicable on these particular savings? If so, how much?

I have simpler ones as well but given your grasp of the religion I did not want to be disrespectful.

Again: people are scared into believing that actually studying that book would lead them to gumrahi, so they are just cool with the fact that they know it by heart or can recite it perfectly.

See, I know what these Mullahs/"scholars" fabricate all day long and no, I am not impressed. I can get you a list of weird fatwas from those esteemed scholars who are more known than the Prophet (PBUH) himself. Fabricating rulings on topics where the legislator was silent is not an achievement, it's an act of degeneration of former nations. In fact the Quran is against priesthood!

View attachment 740111

Surah At-Tawbah - 31 - Quran.com

They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none bu...

quran.com

The spirit of Islam is not about "that and that is forbidden" and "that and that is allowed".

Thanks again for proving my argument. Those Mullahs, "scholars", ISIS, and TTP bastards are the very result of idiotically believing that you can understand the Quran just by reading it.

Agreed.

........Your entire post above contests it and now you "agree"? You have no idea what you've agreed to, do you?

Those great scholars were also known for takfiririzing for not having the same opinion as them. They even went to so far and prohibited marrying from another Fiqh let alone takfired them. We don't need a new priest caste, we need to go back to the roots. Overcomplicated mullahism made Muslims mad and degenerate.

Lol. No they were not and no they did not. Yet again, you don't know who or what you are talking about. You also need to figure out the difference between a priest and an academic scholar.

Agreed, just keep it simple in regards to Islam and its teaching.

I think before we do anything in regards to Islam, we need to check our hearts first. Do we really want guidance and salvation? Or is Islam just an ego trip for you (generally speaking not adressing you @krash)? Many of the discussions online and offline have only one purpose: to get the moral/religious high ground, it's not about actually striving for the truth, it's likea rap battle to put the other one down and ridicule him / manipulate him. Everybody needs to check his heart first, what I am trying to achieve? Am I pleasing the lord or is my attitude and my behaviour self-centred? I think this is the most important of all things: pure intentions.

The irony.....



I won't entertain any further unintelligent comments devoid of any sense or logic, targeting shadows. Don't pretend to answer things which have not been argued just because you are not educated enough to continue the actual debate and/or do not have enough integrity to admit the limits of your knowledge.

After all that I notice you didn't answer my question to you.

That was deliberate.

 

[Iltutmish]

1) You've already been told that both Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA) and Hazrat Umar (RA) were taught directly under the tutelage of the Prophet (S.A.W), i.e. the Prophet (S.A.W) himself had explained everything to them.

This is general knowledge. Everybody knows that. All you are saying is that there is only a little understanding about what Islam is. Please tell me, The Prophet (PBUH) knew, the major companions had a direct link to the source, but what about us? Is there any way for us to know? The Quran is too complicated, the Hadith not so easy to decipher too, what shall we do? I will not believe that the Quran is just a random order of words that nobody understands or only tries to understand.

And yet still they both regularly sought consult from those who knew better. The Prophet (S.A.W) himself explicitly advised the Sahabah to consult the Ummahat-ul-Momineen on matters of Deen after his passing. The Sahabah consulted Hazrat Ayesha (RA) the most out of them. There were others after them. All of whom were in fact equal to 'Harvard astrophysicists' in their respected field.

The discussion started with: If you read Quran on your own, you will go astray. And this is the believe of most Muslims. This is also the major reason why the Quran gets dusty in most households. Reciting contests all over, but nobody ever made the effort to actually read that book. Quran literally means reading. Nobody is all-knowing in every field, but we have a guideline in form of the Quran to consult! And I also I never said to read the Quran without knowing any context to it!

Thanks for proving my point, though. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about and are even foolishly raising nonsensical arguments which have already been answered. You can't understand simple posts correctly, how will you understand the Quran?

English is my third language, so please be nice .

But this arrogance people have in regards to Islamic religion is the major reason why nobody ever looks into the books. People can be truck drivers, computer scientists, merchants or even doctors, but they never touch religious texts, because of mad mullahs scaring them into gumrahi.

Pretty unintelligent paragraphs to type in response to the very post giving a detailed plan on how to understand the Quran and how you would not need to blindly follow anyone.

Is the Quran a source of misguidance when I read it on my own, yes or no? When I am unable to read it on my own, I need a mullah right? Who knows better and is in control of my religion afterwards. If yes, how can we prevent that?

"Fancy Mullah".....Alright, I'll take you up on that offer. Please provide your expert opinion directly and solely sourced from the Quran on the following.

Call it mullah, scholar, teacher or what ever, but they control the religion. You know that Jews and Christians are cursed for taking their monks and rabbis as quasi gods? Where is the difference between them and us when we have the same structures as them?

If I am saving to buy a house for my family to live in, is Zakat applicable on these particular savings? If so, how much?

I know what you are saying. Yes, it doesn't matter for what you are saving for. Zakat is due when the amount is above the nisab! 1/40th of the amount must be paid as Zakat. You will find that rate in Sahih Hadith but the general duty is defined in the Quran and practically implemented in the example of the Prophet (PBUH)! But how to go astray afterwards? The good Muslim will do anything to find out how to pay Zakat correctly and he will know that he has to consult the example of the Prophet (PBUH)! The same for prayer, the Quran doesn't explain how to pray, the Prophet (PBUH) taught us how-to! I never said that the Quran is the only source, it's the main source of Islamic religion.

I have simpler ones as well but given your grasp of the religion I did not want to be disrespectful.

This is not a competition.

No it's not. Either educate yourself or grow enough integrity to admit your limits. Staying quiet is the easiest solution though.

It's more "difficult" because language evolved but the Quranic corpus is still there. Also I have to say that Quran Arabic is way more beautiful than all the dialects spoken today.

Thanks again for proving my argument. Those Mullahs, "scholars", ISIS, and TTP bastards are the very result of idiotically believing that you can understand the Quran just by reading it.

Everyone of those has a personal Mullah telling them what to do and that their doing is rightly guided. My problem is that you state that the Quran (i. e. Islam) is not understandable and we need to ask Monks and Rabbis to get a clear picture. If we say so, we allow people to believe anything and we have to respect that. Right and wrong is not determined by mullahs, if so suicide can also be legalized, degenerates here in Germany even visit prostitutes while having 2 meter beards saying that they are their slaves and stuff like that (I could go on all day long). They all have people on their side, fancy scholars (for dollars). On the day of judgement you cannot hide behind them.

Lol. No they were not and no they did not.

Today Madhabs act like they are all bff (ok, nobody likes Hanbalis), but they fought against each other, they takfirized and outlawed inter-madhab marriages. This is a fact.

Yet again, you don't know who or what you are talking about. You also need to figure out the difference between a priest and an academic scholar.

When they control the masses and demand blind following it doesn't matter what they are called. Shaykh, Rabbi, Monk, Maulana, Molvi or my favourite "Pir-e-Shariat" have all the same effect.

A good scholar would be one who teaches the religion well and makes himself useless afterwards. But celebrities want fame, so they will come up with even newer BS to justify their existence. $_FILL_IN_MAD_FATWA_FROM_MUSLIM_COUNTRY.

........Your entire post above contests it and now you "agree"? You have no idea what you've agreed to, do you?

You made a suggestion where to start and I agreed with that. What's wrong?

The irony.....

See I try to be nice, I even posted on your personal page to make peace, because I respect your knowledge in Islam. Don't give me that attitude.

I won't entertain any further unintelligent comments devoid of any sense or logic, targeting shadows. Don't pretend to answer things which have not been argued just because you are not educated enough to continue the actual debate and/or do not have enough integrity to admit the limits of your knowledge.

Things "that have not been argued" are the logical consequence of saying: when you read Quran on your own, you will go astray. And this statement is just not true. There are enough people who will "help" you "understanding" Islam when they know that you are a sheep-like robot.

 

[313ghazi]

@krash @Iltutmish - interesting discussion you guys have going on here.

The Quran was created for all mankind, it's a message for all of us, not just the clergy. There is benefit to be had in reading the Quran and trying to understand it. However there is this Quranist movement which thinks that they only need to reference the Quran to understand Islam - I don't agree with them. For a full understanding of Islam we need to consider hadith as well.

With most subjects in the world, many of us don't have an indepth detail from the ground up. We might understand some physics, but we don't understand all physics, nor do many of us have the understanding to explain complex issues from bare principles up.

So I understand why we ought to consult subject matter experts and resources written by them. That is why we have the schools of Fiqh for example. These scholars codified Islam and thier work has been built upon by millions of scholars over a millenia. To fully understand the Quran it is important to read the tafseer as well.

I have personally read the Quran with the translation several times. I reccomend everyone read the Quran with translation. I was at a Jummah khutba at a hospital once and the Imam said that he regularly reads the Quran until he hits something he doesn't understand or something that just strikes him. He then stops and ponders upon that and researches into it. He reccomended we all do that, to actually reflect on the words of the Quran.

 

[Iltutmish]

I have personally read the Quran with the translation several times. I reccomend everyone read the Quran with translation. I was at a Jummah khutba at a hospital once and the Imam said that he regularly reads the Quran until he hits something he doesn't understand or something that just strikes him. He then stops and ponders upon that and researches into it. He reccomended we all do that, to actually reflect on the words of the Quran.

That’s the Muslim approach. People overintellectualize Islam and make it a rocket science and wonder why nobody is interested in actually studying it. We are all accountable on the Yaum for what we have done, we cannot hide behind any turban wearer.

People go out and become doctors, teachers, plumbers, astrophysicists… are busy all day long with making money or wasting time on the Internet but learning your religion is a task for 500 IQ people?

The Quran itself states that its understandable, condemns Jews and Christians for their priests and is designed for all of mankind. But people deliberately exclude the "laymen" from salvation. Why? Cui Bono?