The Pakistani Soldier

[All-Green]

Anyone who has some idea about the brutal mass murdering rampage orchestrated by Taliban in Tribal areas to eliminate the leadership will know for sure what TTP was doing even before their so called direct clash with the state...they have been murdering the Pakistanis since years and thanks to Allah the State has finally awakened to the reality and decided to act.

There are many factors good and bad about Pakistan's partnership with US. I believe we can with some effort and with passage of time build a better relationship with US but the bogus argument of if it suits US it does not suit Pakistan at all should not be considered a valid argument.
TTP is most lethal to Pakistan and not to US, if we are killing our worst enemy and US says it is right thing to do then should it mean we stop because "US interests are being met"?
If US or anyother country is indeed our enemy then they shall be really sorry that TTP is being killed no matter what they say to the world...from where I am standing, extermination of TTP is the first step in making Pakistan strong and independant in the long run, there is no room for militancy and terrorism in Pakistan and tolerating such is akin to deliberately letting a cancer spread in the body.

No matter who backs the TTP or what their intentions are, we see them carrying out terrorist attacks on Pakistanis and they should be killed and exterminated.
Anyone who sympathizes with TTP is either naive or does not really care about what Pakistanis have been facing at the hands of TTP.
Most of the Pakistani's are day by day realizing what the TTP is doing to Pakistan and are coming around to accept them as the most dangerous enemy of Pakistan and its people.

I for one will hate the TTP with extreme prejudice and will support all efforts to eliminate them...i do not want to give the gift of terrorism and mass murders to our children...No matter what has happened in the past we need to make the Pakistan state strong from within and this can never happen with the likes of TTP perpetrating acts of terrorism on a daily basis.

There is valid justification for the action of State in taking on the TTP with full force but there is no justification for all what TTP has been doing, TTP is worth as much condemnation as possible but to give justifications for TTP is not really possible unless one accepts that such terrorism is an acceptable way to stand for one's beliefs...if that is the case then such a person cannot be argued with.
Also there is a difference between disagreeing with state and starting a rebellion which uses terrorism as its weapon.

Pakistan Army has gained much more support of the people than before and even the morale of Army has soared after Kayani has taken over...this is the ideal time to eliminate the enemies of Pakistan.
There should be no weakness or lack of resolve in this war because it is war for our survival.
All the dialogues, table talks, discussions and policy changes should be saved for later...right now there is a mission at hand and we need to finish the fight which TTP has started years ago.

PA does not kill its own people deliberately whereas TTP actually targets Pakistani's in all the cities and areas it can with bombs...
PA is using PGMs in the conflict zone to avoid collateral...Whereas the TTP actually thrives on killing as much as possible to strike terror into the hearts of the Pakistanis...to compare the actions of the two is like calling the judge a murderer for ordering a murderer to be hanged...
When we are dealing with TTP we are dealing with terrorists and not freedom fighters...so there really is no comparison here of a state brutally oppressing its own people...to think so is quite contrary to what we have witnessed in the past few years and thankfully majority of Pakistanis are realizing this now.

To deal with TTP we have to use overwhelming force...PA is the force and it is being used justly to protect Pakistan and its people...this is the duty of PA and that is what they are doing with honour and valour.

 

[All-Green]

=The fact that he was undermining their agenda and acting as a proxy mouthpiece for the government in order to turn the public against them might have had something to do with it.

The social order as it has existed in Pakistan for the past 50 years or so is the real outrage .Its the elitists secularists/capitalists at the top that have the most to lose in the event of an overhaul of the existing system.Justice,health,education etc for the common man is not exactly high on their list of priorities.That is the real travesty of justice.

Hard to digest such comments about a great man who was loved by all for his conviction in Islam as a peaceful and progressive way of life...you have certainly made clear that you view of anyone who opposes the TTP as a PROXY of government ... No one has called Dr. Naeemi Shaheed a proxy of government so that is just your point of view...he was just agreeing with what the government was doing and in that he shares the view of millions of Pakistanis as well.
Certainly I am against TTP wholeheartedly and by the same logic i am too a proxy?

By the same brilliant justification the government should eliminate those who support TTP or are opposing the Government actions...does the government do that?
There is no way the goverment can be judged in the same court as the TTP...no way at all!

Ok, the government has not been able to perform well in providing justice, health and education...though we are still better in health and education than many countries of the world...
However the question remains as to how much a suidide bombing delivers on these key issues you highlight?
Or maybe we do not know something which you are aware of?

In comparison the welfare program launched by TTP in Pakistan is unparalleled in its sheer tenacity and they will certainly provide a swift justice to each and every citizen who opposes them...this has certainly been witnessed by us.

There is no justification of TTP no matter how hard you try to apologize on their behalf, they are just a large network of terrorists, outlaws and criminals who are feasting on the flesh of the innocents and all those who openly support them in thinking that they have anything to with Islam or justice are either naive, not suffering at their hands or are of likewise disposition...either way they should all thank that it is the government they oppose because if god forbid they had been opponents of the TTP then some form of swift justice would have been delivered to their doorstep...sooner or later.

 

[waraich66]

Fundamentalist

Keep Palestine in the World or strategic boards, maybe we should create a Arby board for you guys, but please keep Palestine or is it Balestine, on the world and strategic boards - this thread is about the
PAKISTANI soldier. Please

Our soldier is first muslim then any thing else ,he always think with mind of muslim , after death ,he is answerable to Allah , he is also well aware of US politics and zoinist agenda in the central asia and middle east .

US government regime know it very that present wave of terrorism in muslim world is reaction of Israeli injustice and crimnal actions .

 

[Conscientious objector]

ok lets sit back and have it ur way lets stop all army operations and work for a peace deal oh wait we tried that. Do u have any idea wat these taliban are doing and what they have done in swat. What sort of a pashtun are u dont u care about the honour of our women and what these begharata arab appeasing slaves have done to them. Dont u care about the youth they have slaughtered and the innocents they have slaughtered in swat and in open markets. Begharata dont u care about our pashtoonwali that they have raped.

If the TTP really are as bad as you claim,why didn't the people of SWAT deal with them years ago,why didn't the Yusufzai tribe take up arms against them? Why is it that we didn't see a mass exodus during these past few years when all of this alleged murder, pillaging and raping was going on?

During the peace deal the elders of Bunair allowed the TTP to enter without so much as a single shot being fired in protest,surely if the TTP were as you claim they are, they would have known this and they would have fought to the death to prevent these so called rapists from entering their territory.
But no they are not beghairata as your comments imply, had the TTP been anything like the way they have been portrayed by you and your ilk, the brave and noble people of SWAT and surrounding areas would have wiped them out without the need of outside intervention.

No doubt some bandits masquerading as Taliban committed some terrible crimes but the fact is that if the real Taliban had apprehended such individuals they would have been dealt with swiftly in accordance with Islamic law, which is more than I can say for the present judicial system in which the rich literally get away with murder.

Alhamdulillah I'm not begharata and I would do my best to defend the honour of any Muslim being oppressed regardless of ethnicity or nationality, let alone support those who would even think about dishonouring my sisters in Islam.

The army didnt do a thing for 8 years now why are they acting why dont u read muslim khans intercepted call or listen to it and he says the air strikes in waziristan have killed alot of important men for them. Its a professional army what do u expect troops to do, will everyone just go off and do their own thing. Once again dont degrade the army noone in the army suppourts this cancer.

Little do you know that there is a considerable amount of soldiers in the army of all ranks that are against the present operation,and they do not consider those fighting to establish an Islamic state as being a cancer, only one who has been deceived by the shaytan would consider them as such.

How dare u call urself pashtoon without understanding the misery my people had to endure under the taliban and wat it has done to our people and our nation.

See my response above about why your people didn't resist them, the fact is that the people of SWAT embraced the Taliban and their system of governance with open arms for the most part.Pashtuns love Islam and love sharia

It was only those corrupt elitist munafiqeen who had the most to lose as a result of justice for all that detested the TTP.Having said that I accept that criminals infiltrated the ranks of the TTP and did much harm to innocent people as well as the image of the mujahideen.

Your mentality is the reason our people are suffering. It clearly doesnt affect u if ur not backing these arab slaves being slaughtered

Its your slave mentality that is the reason that the Muslim world is in the state that it is.You see the west as a god to be worshiped besides Allah,you look to the west as bringing prosperity and progress and see the Sharia as backward.

Perish in your rage, you may have a momentary victory but ultimately the Muslims will be the victors by the permission of Allah,and Pakistan will be a true Islamic state worthy of the title Islamic republic

 

[EyelessInGaza]

The IRA were considered murderous,savage,barbaric etc and now they play a part in the political process of the united kingdom.Hamas which is the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people is seen as a terrorist organisation by the Israelis,I'm sure the Nazis viewed the French resistance as Murderous etc as well,I hope you get my point.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

The fact that he was undermining their agenda and acting as a proxy mouthpiece for the government in order to turn the public against them might have had something to do with it.

Terms such as Murderers etc are relative, why would you consider state sponsored terror as legitimate and the reaction to it illegitimate?

The social order as it has existed in Pakistan for the past 50 years or so is the real outrage .Its the elitists secularists/capitalists at the top that have the most to lose in the event of an overhaul of the existing system.Justice,health,education etc for the common man is not exactly high on their list of priorities.That is the real travesty of justice.

All good points. It is undeniable that movements such as the TTP have arisen because of fault lines within the Pakistani state. Outrage at the lack of social justice within Pakistani society, as far as I can see as an outsider, is also valid.

However, few battles, if any, can be clearly delineated between the forces of 'pure good' and 'pure evil'. You cited the Nazi example; perhaps that is the one instance in the 20th century which neatly fits the 'good versus bad' paradigm.

And yet the British bombings of German cities in WWII can be regarded as a classic example of state terrorism, especially the way in which Dresden was almost wiped out of the map. So, based on this example, were the Brits the bad guys in WWII?

No, IMHO, in real life you choose your position based on which side has the least against it in terms of its stated principles, record and avowed stands. The Pakistan state may not have a lot going for it, but it is not yet the Taliban.

I do not say that one should not critique the state, harshly if the need be. Otherwise we will all end up like mini versions of a fascist dictatorship.

But, once you have chosen your stand, the 'on the one hand, on the other hand' reasoning can only dilute your position and the will to fight.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Hogwash - what you have is anecdotal evidence indicating exactly what I said is impossible to avoid in any military campaign in a populated area - unintentional civilian casualties. You have in no way substantiated your claim of 'indiscriminate bombing'.

My point was that such bombings disregard civilians and not that it is intentional targeting of civilians there is difference.Here is some more "Hogwash" for you to consider.

Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Deadly 'drone attack' hits Pakistan

On the other hand, both Western and Pakistan journalists taken into Swat validated the comments I made about no visible evidence justifying the 'indiscriminate bombing' claim

.


Please provide references as I am of the understanding that there is a media blackout in the region and no journalists are independently reporting from SWAT. Those taken into SWAT and escorted by the military could easily be manipulated as I'm sure they have been.

Have I engaged in name calling with you? I haven't, so I'd appreciate it if you refrain from the ad hominems and wack job conspiracy theories - Neo-con zionist indeed, should have also added 'Hindutva'.

This was my observation of your understanding/outlook of current affairs.It seems you are willing to bend over backwards to be accepted by your american counterparts.Rest assured the american dream comes at a price.

Imran Khan's (IM the Dim is very appropriate as well, as FM often says) ludicrous views are for all to see. His arguments are fantasies - any man who calls a group carrying out suicide bombings, beheading, torture etc. (against both civilians and soldiers) a 'political movement', is nothing but a lunatic.

He needs to be admitted into the Shaukat Khanum psychiatric ward post haste.

He has a better understanding of the current situation than you can imagine,he doesn't see things through american sun glasses,remove your blinkers and take a look at the big picture.

How many, military personnel were there in the mosque in Upper Dir? From what I remember they were all civilians, children amongst them, who were massacred by your beloved Taliban. No wonder the villagers raised a Laskhar to hound these swine out of Upper Dir.

The TTP has not taken responsibility for the Dir attack,and it seems clear that this was a black flag operation which unfortunately has had the desired effect. I unequivocally condemn such attacks regardless of who is responsible.

And how many 'soldiers were in the PC'? What 'military' or 'armed action' was Dr. Naeemi leading? He was a vocal supporter of the military operation against the Taliban, as am I, as are the 17 and 50 year olds on this forum, as are millions of Pakistanis. So now all of them are liable to be killed by a suicide bomber because of our 'campaign against the TTP'?

The difference between you and the rest of those who support military action and Naeemi is that he was an influential figure who was not merely voicing his approval for the current massacre but was actively inciting and demanding military action against the TTP, as well as calling upon his followers to do the same.Do you think that if any such person in a similar position were to call upon people to resist military action that he would be left to do so by the G.O.P? I'm sUre any such individual would be assassinated or tortured upon apprehension.

Imran khan gets labeled as a "terrorist sympathiser" and a "lunatic" for far less than what Mr Neemi was guilty of.

My God, listen to yourself you deluded terrorist supporter, justifying the murder of innocents.

Don't take the moral high ground and state that you do not indulge in personal attacks, your double standards and hypocrisy are the same as that of the Zionists who occupy Philistine.

Hogwash again, you are doing just that, you jsut justified every single terrorist attack the Taliban recently claimed by trying to provide reasons for it. Read your own post again above.

I was pointing out the reasoning/motivating factors of those responsible nothing more.

Going by their targets so far - mosques, barbershops, religious scholars, hotels, cricket teams - it is pretty clear what 'everywhere' means.

Anecdotal evidence is admissible in this case is it?Where the TTP have claimed responsibility I have already covered, as for the attacks in which there were no viable targets which would further the cause of the TTP then its safe to assume it was the G.O.P or someone working at their behest that was responsible.Unmanned drone attacks were denied by the G.O.P until it was proven beyond doubt that they were involved. Does the term double standards ring a bell?

Please note that Blackwater are active in Pakistan and they are known for their black ops,one only has to take a glance at what happened in Iraq to see some of their handy work.

 

[waraich66]

All good points. It is undeniable that movements such as the TTP have arisen because of fault lines within the Pakistani state. Outrage at the lack of social justice within Pakistani society, as far as I can see as an outsider, is also valid.

However, few battles, if any, can be clearly delineated between the forces of 'pure good' and 'pure evil'. You cited the Nazi example; perhaps that is the one instance in the 20th century which neatly fits the 'good versus bad' paradigm.

And yet the British bombings of German cities in WWII can be regarded as a classic example of state terrorism, especially the way in which Dresden was almost wiped out of the map. So, based on this example, were the Brits the bad guys in WWII?

No, IMHO, in real life you choose your position based on which side has the least against it in terms of its stated principles, record and avowed stands. The Pakistan state may not have a lot going for it, but it is not yet the Taliban.

I do not say that one should not critique the state, harshly if the need be. Otherwise we will all end up like mini versions of a fascist dictatorship.

But, once you have chosen your stand, the 'on the one hand, on the other hand' reasoning can only dilute your position and the will to fight.

Rise of TTP is not due to social injustice,same satuation exist in India also with higher degree then why muslims of india dont have started gurrilla war againt Indian government.

TTP is new version of trible war lords trained and used by CIA and Zia Regime in Afghanistan-Russia war.Now hired by a rich terrorist organisation,these war lords change their friendship with money , they are very punctual in their prayers but mean time are involved in norcotics ,murder and terrorism.

 

[Conscientious objector]

TTP is new version of trible war lords trained and used by CIA and Zia Regime in Afghanistan.Now hired by a rich terrorist organisation,these war lords change their friendship with money , they are very punctual in their prayers but mean time are involved in norcotics ,murder and terrorism.

Do you understand what the term "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" means?

The Taliban were recognised and actively supported by Pakistan when they were in power in Afghanistan so now the "chickens have come home to roost" and you want to cry foul.

I know it must be disappointing but you can't have your cake and eat it

 

[Xeric]

@ Conscientious objector
Little do you know that there is a considerable amount of soldiers in the army of all ranks that are against the present operation,and they do not consider those fighting to establish an Islamic state as being a cancer, only one who has been deceived by the shaytan would consider them as such.

Dude don’t try to vouch for the ‘considerable amount of soldiers’ being against the operation. Who are you to testify this? So before you get more wild let me make it simple for you: You know balls about our soldier’s mentality! Savvy?

And here’s a polite request: DO NOT EVER CALL A SOLDIER, sh**** (censored myself). We all know who the devil around here is! Respect them!


The Taliban were recognized and actively supported by Pakistan when they were in power in Afghanistan
Now again this shows the very little understanding that you have of Pakistani politics and history!
If you still think that today’s’ Pakistani talibans are the same as they were in Afghanistan then I must say you are sadly mistaken.

Just if someone calls himself a hero wouldn’t make him one, similarly just by labeling themselves with the Taliban tag would not make these a$$holes a talib. They are nothing more than a tool at the hands of our ‘actual’ enemies which are furthering their interests and aims in the garb of Islam that they believe is correct and surprisingly you are one of those who like to radicalize our religion! i PERSONALLY believe the actual talibans are long dead.

And lastly let it be not you telling us about Blackwater etc etc as we probably know better, thnx for the reprisal though! If someone like you sitting ‘away’ from the country knows what Blackwater is, we who deal with the situation on ground would definitely know better, therefore we would not like feeding and guidance from someone who cant even differentiate between two type of humans!

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

If the TTP really are as bad as you claim,why didn't the people of SWAT deal with them years ago,why didn't the Yusufzai tribe take up arms against them? Why is it that we didn't see a mass exodus during these past few years when all of this alleged murder, pillaging and raping was going on?

During the peace deal the elders of Bunair allowed the TTP to enter without so much as a single shot being fired in protest,surely if the TTP were as you claim they are, they would have known this and they would have fought to the death to prevent these so called rapists from entering their territory.
But no they are not beghairata as your comments imply, had the TTP been anything like the way they have been portrayed by you and your ilk, the brave and noble people of SWAT and surrounding areas would have wiped them out without the need of outside intervention.

No doubt some bandits masquerading as Taliban committed some terrible crimes but the fact is that if the real Taliban had apprehended such individuals they would have been dealt with swiftly in accordance with Islamic law, which is more than I can say for the present judicial system in which the rich literally get away with murder.

Alhamdulillah I'm not begharata and I would do my best to defend the honour of any Muslim being oppressed regardless of ethnicity or nationality, let alone support those who would even think about dishonouring my sisters in Islam.




Little do you know that there is a considerable amount of soldiers in the army of all ranks that are against the present operation,and they do not consider those fighting to establish an Islamic state as being a cancer, only one who has been deceived by the shaytan would consider them as such.




See my response above about why your people didn't resist them, the fact is that the people of SWAT embraced the Taliban and their system of governance with open arms for the most part.Pashtuns love Islam and love sharia

It was only those corrupt elitist munafiqeen who had the most to lose as a result of justice for all that detested the TTP.Having said that I accept that criminals infiltrated the ranks of the TTP and did much harm to innocent people as well as the image of the mujahideen.





Its your slave mentality that is the reason that the Muslim world is in the state that it is.You see the west as a god to be worshiped besides Allah,you look to the west as bringing prosperity and progress and see the Sharia as backward.

Perish in your rage, you may have a momentary victory but ultimately the Muslims will be the victors by the permission of Allah,and Pakistan will be a true Islamic state worthy of the title Islamic republic

When the taliban first came in they wanted to help and they listened to peoples needs. The inaction by the government and the half hearted operations made the army isolated and the taliban were bought to power in the vacumn created by the previous govts stupidity. There are a lot of foriegners there and alot of local people and after there was noone to question them they started their barbaric acts. This is what i have been told by people who lived in mingora and have relatives there, they went around and did whatever they wanted to everyone and anyone. Buner was worst with the horrific rape and mutilation of women and then the burning of their family members. Do you even know how fazullah married his wife, he kidnapped her from Sufi Mohammad and forcefully married her, now tell me how that is Islamic. Why is everyone from swat behind the army operations. Do u think the people of swat had the arms to do anything against the taliban. Swat was always the most peaceful and educated place in NWFP.

Onto ur second point. I have said a thousand times of this forum that the taliban come in and promise not to meddle in peoples lives and in Buner elders have said that they didnt interfere in their lives at all but after a while they began target killing elders. Look at waziristan do u remember Nek Mohammad the taliban leader and how much waziri elders he slaughtered. Here is a video to show u how they came to power.

You dont have relatives who are a stone throw away from the taliban u dont have friends from mingora who have had their houses and family houses destroyed and had to live while those barbarics did as they pleased. Do you expect them to punish themselves. Since when can u pull out an innocent breadwinner and cut his head off and leave tied to a street lamp for days because hes been wrongly accused of spying. Since when is it Islamic to take a young womens innocence and then cut her breasts off and burn the male family members. Is this the Sharia and most importantly the people u want to implement and run my land.

You bring great shame to my people and ur a begharata arab slave. Have u ever asked urself what an arab would do for u do u think they would defend you for being muslim. Why dont u critise the saudis for doing anything america asked them or UAE for having brothels on its soil. Why have u taken the duty of defending muslims on urself it is because of this stupid mentality that Afghanistan was destroyed and now they are being beaten like hell in swat and other regions. Keep ur religion to urself and realise that u cannot impose it on anyone. We will not accept any arab influence on our soil and we pashtoons will not let their narrowminded backwardness pollute our secular way of life. I dont know what planet ur on but the taliban have very sophisticated and heavy weaponary how do u expect unarmed civilians to fight them.


Dont lie the people of swat will never want the backwardness of taliban sharia and that is why they have rejected it. Pashtuns may love sharia and rightly so but they will never accept taliban style sharia and its barbaric laws. The taliban have no understanding if Islam and that is why if u ever watched the news when the operation in swat started people were asking the taliban 'what sort of sharia is this'

They are money hungry theives not mujahideen all of the people of swat say they are nothing but theives.

For the last time do not degrade my troops by saying they suppourt this cancer. They are fighting to defend Islam from this cancer. Why was Islam at the forefront of sciece, maths, physics, astrology, philosophy, architechture etc while europe languished in the dark ages, because Islam encourages to seek education and gain knowlegde. People would be living like cavemen under the taliban, do u think they understand the importance at all of the above fields.

I dont give two shits about the muslim world seriusly palestine doesnt affect me neither does iraq or iran or any of that. The arab neighbours of palestine dont care about it so why should we. I care about my people and my country and how to help better it. People like you can go and blow urselves up in palestine or iraq we dont need u to represent our country. Why do u care about the muslim world when they clearly dont care about it themselves. Why arent u worried about the mass killings of our people. Religion is something u cannot impose on people. Your backward thinking is highlighted by u saying '.You see the west as a god to be worshiped besides Allah,'. What does this even mean, the west doesnt include iran and look at how much it has excelled in the field of science. Was that the west who excelled in the fields i mentioned when Islam and Muslims were in its glory days. Sharia is the proper way of life if it can be implemented properly and i dont think taliban have a right to call their laws sharia its unIslamic.

You are right the muslims will be victorious when we remove this cancer from our country and we are on the right path and InshAllah we will be victorious and these taliban will continue showing their true face by shaving their heads and beards and running with their tails between their legs

 

[waraich66]

Do you understand what the term "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" means?

The Taliban were recognised and actively supported by Pakistan when they were in power in Afghanistan so now the "chickens have come home to roost" and you want to cry foul.

I know it must be disappointing but you can't have your cake and eat it

little knowledge is dangrous ,Dont make it our mistake that Pakistan helped Afghan Mahajreen during war now after 30 years they forget every thing and started terrorism against Pakistan.

Our local Pushtoon tribes always supported GOP and we also helped them. You will see soon we will flush these coward terrorists named TTP from our soil.

 

[Conscientious objector]

This is what i have been told by people who lived in mingora and have relatives there,

So your argument is based on hearsay?

Since when can u pull out an innocent breadwinner and cut his head off and leave tied to a street lamp for days because hes been wrongly accused of spying. Since when is it Islamic to take a young womens innocence and then cut her breasts off and burn the male family members. Is this the Sharia and most importantly the people u want to implement and run my land.

The horrific incidents you have described above are not Islamic in any way shape or form.The fact is that I do not accept that the Taliban (authentic Taliban) are responsible for such actions.

You bring great shame to my people and ur a begharata arab slave.

Please refrain from your personal attacks you do nothing to further your point of view by speaking in such a manner.

Have u ever asked urself what an arab would do for u do u think they would defend you for being muslim. Why dont u critise the saudis for doing anything america asked them or UAE for having brothels on its soil.

We are not discussing Arabs and I don't see why you have gone off at this tangent.

Keep ur religion to urself and realise that u cannot impose it on anyone.

Listen to yourself, why would I need to impose my religion on someone who supposedly adheres to the same religion?

We will not accept any arab influence on our soil

The Quran was revealed in Arabic do you reject its influence?

and we pashtoons will not let their narrowminded backwardness pollute our secular way of life

.

Since when have Pashtuns believed in secularism? You do understand what secularism is don't you? Secularism is at loggerheads with Islam.

I dont know what planet ur on but the taliban have very sophisticated and heavy weaponary how do u expect unarmed civilians to fight them.

Pashtun people of SWAT unarmed? Last time I was there it appeared every man and his dog was in possession of automatic assault rifles.

all of the people of swat say they are nothing but theives.

That is evidently not the case judging by the video you yourself have posted above.

Why was Islam at the forefront of sciece, maths, physics, astrology, philosophy, architechture etc while europe languished in the dark ages, because Islam encourages to seek education and gain knowlegde. People would be living like cavemen under the taliban, do u think they understand the importance at all of the above fields.

It seems you do not understand the meaning of the "above fields" yourself, never mind their importance. Do yourself a favour and educate yourself as to the meaning of Astrology before you speak of such matters.

Astrology was never a subject that Muslim scientists delved into, in fact it is Haram to do so.

I dont give two shits about the muslim world

So you deny the command of the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him in which he ordered us to have concern for other Muslims?

seriusly palestine doesnt affect me neither does iraq or iran or any of that. The arab neighbours of palestine dont care about it so why should we. People like you can go and blow urselves up in palestine or iraq we dont need u to represent our country

.




Anyway enough of your ranting and raving please discuss in a civil manner stick to the subject and get your facts right. A little something for you to read about secularism, per chance you repent from it.

Secularism is defined in the Webster dictionary as: "A system of doctrines and practices that rejects any form of religious faith and worship" or "The belief that religion and ecclesiastical affairs should not enter into the function of the state especially into public education."

There is no doubt that secularism contradicts Islam in every aspect. They are two different paths that never meet; choosing one means rejecting the other. Hence, whoever chooses Islam has to reject secularism. In the following, we go in the details of explaining why.

1- First, secularism makes lawful what Allah has made unlawful.

The Rule of Allah (Shari`ah) is compulsory and has basic laws and regulations that cannot be changed. Some of these laws are concerned with the acts of worship, the relations between men and women, etc.

What is the position with regard to these laws?

Secularism makes adultery lawful if the male and the female are consenting adults.

As for Riba (interest on money), it is the basis of all financial transactions in secular economies. On the contrary, Allah says (s.2 A. 278): "O you who believe, fear Allah and leave what comes from Riba if you are believers. If you do not do so, then wait for a war from Allah and His Messenger."

As for alcohol, all secular systems allow the consumption of alcohol and make selling it a lawful business.

2- Second, secularism is clear unbelief (Kufr).

Secularism is based on separating religion from all the affairs of this life and hence, it rules by law and regulations other than Allah's laws. Hence, secularism rejects Allah's rules with no exception and prefers regulations other than Allah's and His Messenger's. In fact, many secularists claim that Allah's laws might have been suitable for the time they were revealed but are now outdated.

As a result, most of the laws governing the daily affairs of life in the countries ruled by secular systems contradict Islam. Allah says (S.5 A.50): "Do they seek a judgment of Ignorance? But, who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?"

Ibn Katheer said in the Tafseer of this verse that Allah is denouncing those who reject His ruling and accept other rulings that are not based on the Shari`ah of Allah. Whoever does so is indeed a non-believer. Indeed, belief in Allah can never go with the acceptance of other than His rulings in one's heart. Allah says (S.5 A.44): "If any do fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are non-believers."

From the above, the status of secularism and its relation to Islam are clear. But the ignorance about the Islamic truth is still dominating the Muslim's mind. Most secular systems repeat slogans like "no religion in politics and no politics in religion" or "religion is for Allah, and the state is for the people." Such sayings portray their view of Islam as a religion to be practiced in the mosque only, and that it should not be allowed to rule life outside the mosque. Furthermore, they try to deceive people with democratic slogans like "personal freedom" and "people governing people." That means that people come first and no place is made for the ruling of Allah.

This is why secularism is clear Kufr, this is why secular systems have no legality and authority and should be rejected by Muslims.

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[All-Green]

My point was that such bombings disregard civilians and not that it is intentional targeting of civilians there is difference.Here is some more "Hogwash" for you to consider.

Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Deadly 'drone attack' hits Pakistan

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Please provide references as I am of the understanding that there is a media blackout in the region and no journalists are independently reporting from SWAT. Those taken into SWAT and escorted by the military could easily be manipulated as I'm sure they have been.



This was my observation of your understanding/outlook of current affairs.It seems you are willing to bend over backwards to be accepted by your american counterparts.Rest assured the american dream comes at a price.



He has a better understanding of the current situation than you can imagine,he doesn't see things through american sun glasses,remove your blinkers and take a look at the big picture.



The TTP has not taken responsibility for the Dir attack,and it seems clear that this was a black flag operation which unfortunately has had the desired effect. I unequivocally condemn such attacks regardless of who is responsible.




The difference between you and the rest of those who support military action and Naeemi is that he was an influential figure who was not merely voicing his approval for the current massacre but was actively inciting and demanding military action against the TTP, as well as calling upon his followers to do the same.Do you think that if any such person in a similar position were to call upon people to resist military action that he would be left to do so by the G.O.P? I'm sUre any such individual would be assassinated or tortured upon apprehension.
Imran khan gets labeled as a "terrorist sympathiser" and a "lunatic" for far less than what Mr Neemi was guilty of.




Don't take the moral high ground and state that you do not indulge in personal attacks, your double standards and hypocrisy are the same as that of the Zionists who occupy Philistine.



I was pointing out the reasoning/motivating factors of those responsible nothing more.




Anecdotal evidence is admissible in this case is it?Where the TTP have claimed responsibility I have already covered, as for the attacks in which there were no viable targets which would further the cause of the TTP then its safe to assume it was the G.O.P or someone working at their behest that was responsible.Unmanned drone attacks were denied by the G.O.P until it was proven beyond doubt that they were involved. Does the term double standards ring a bell?

Please note that Blackwater are active in Pakistan and they are known for their black ops,one only has to take a glance at what happened in Iraq to see some of their handy work.

You make GOP sound like Nazis and your accusations on GOP in being similar to TTP fall flat on their face...
Have you visited Pakistan in the last ten years?

Anybody and everybody can voice their concerns and as long as they are not involved in terrorist activitites or providing physical support...no one gets arrested for saying something the GOP does not like and be given TTP style punishments...the least of which is swift gunshot and the other more painful ones include slicing of the throat with a dull blade to make it slow and hellish experience, giving thousands of cuts to the body over many hours...etc.
TTP butchered and hanged all those who opposed them as traitors and agents of America....thousands were killed like this and you would have us believe that GOP is no different...by Allah that is not at all true...even though we barrage our government with all sorts of criticism, this is not something we can accuse them of doing...you have taken it too far in your love for Taliban.

There have been protests against the Army operations and no body was killed or masses of people whisked away and tortured, only those have been killed who support the PA and GOP in taking on the terrorists...so better get your facts straight.

In a nutshell your attempt to equate the cold blooded assassinations and mass murders of the opponents of TTP and GOP's policing (not killing, abusing etc.) of few rioters for few hours is one of the biggest error in judgement...either this or you get your kicks by seeing TTP blast away innocent Pakistanis in the name of Islam whilst you sit in UK sipping your evening tea?
I hope it is the former.

You should realize that there are certain ground realities regarding the terrorists that maybe you are willing to ignore being in a foreign land or being in love with the legend of Taliban (BTW the crazy TTP is not really the old Taliban movement even though i did not like the former that much but this TTP is purely terrorism incorporated)....
We on the other hand are first hand witnesses to such atrocties and most of us are sick and tired of this useless argument about what are the real motives of TTP.

TTP really need not accept responsibility for any act of terrorism...does the thief say that he steals?
The reason TTP do so is usually associated with...guess what?...terrorism!!!
This is how most terrorist organizations operate, they kill and then they advertise about it to melt resistance and scare the masses into a state of meek submission...

So you see, TTP need not accept anything and yet they should be taken out by the GOP for their terrorism, the fact that despite accepting responsibility for countless acts they are being given alibis by Taliban apologists like yourself is a sad one but then that is to be expected...afterall there are many who still do not understand what TTP is doing to the spirit of Pakistan and Pakistanis and want all our troubles pinned on some damn kaffir...sorry, but whoever is behind the TTP is a moot point at this stage...we need to take them out first, capture them when possible and only when this murderous rampage is controlled we shall be able to investigate more about the supporters and the supply train...it is like somebody has thrown a bee hive in our backyard...we need to save ourselves from this onslaught first and then look beyond our wall!

You accuse GOP of double play and manipulation whereas TTP used to kill and still butchers all those who resist in any way what TTP asks of them...are you really not able to make a distinction between TTP and GOP?
You are treading a very strange path indeed and one that it full of blood and violence all in the name of a cause which is lost on most of us...there is no service being done to Islam by the TTP...they have actually severely damaged the belief of the people in a peaceful implementation of Shariah...

You can go on and on and i do not expect you to change your views but before you accuse your opponents of hypocrisy...you should look at where you are standing and whom you are so fervently trying to defend here and give justifications for?
The mass murderers of thousand of innocent Pakistanis...The butchers of our men, women and children....the demons who have stolen our peace...who have made us fear for the safety of our loved ones on a daily basis...who have made a mockery of Islam and made it a justification to swiftly slaughter all who oppose their views...who justify each and every criminal act as a means to an end?

When a rabid dog comes to bite you, you do not wonder about what is going through its head....you kill it...
plain and simple logic when it is your life on the line...not plain enough i see from your posts, when it is others who shall suffer and not you...

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

So your argument is based on hearsay?



The horrific incidents you have described above are not Islamic in any way shape or form.The fact is that I do not accept that the Taliban (authentic Taliban) are responsible for such actions.



Please refrain from your personal attacks you do nothing to further your point of view by speaking in such a manner.



We are not discussing Arabs and I don't see why you have gone off at this tangent.



Listen to yourself, why would I need to impose my religion on someone who supposedly adheres to the same religion?



The Quran was revealed in Arabic do you reject its influence?

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Since when have Pashtuns believed in secularism? You do understand what secularism is don't you? Secularism is at loggerheads with Islam.



Pashtun people of SWAT unarmed? Last time I was there it appeared every man and his dog was in possession of automatic assault rifles.



That is evidently not the case judging by the video you yourself have posted above.



It seems you do not understand the meaning of the "above fields" yourself, never mind their importance. Do yourself a favour and educate yourself as to the meaning of Astrology before you speak of such matters.

Astrology was never a subject that Muslim scientists delved into, in fact it is Haram to do so.




So you deny the command of the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him in which he ordered us to have concern for other Muslims?

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Anyway enough of your ranting and raving please discuss in a civil manner stick to the subject and get your facts right. A little something for you to read about secularism, per chance you repent from it.





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So your argument is based on hearsay?

Going to functions for these peoples and hearing their stories is not just hear say now is it. They are in the best position to tell us first hand whats going on.

The horrific incidents you have described above are not Islamic in any way shape or form.The fact is that I do not accept that the Taliban (authentic Taliban) are responsible for such actions.

There are two types of taliban in swat now are they. How convienant for you when they do something unIslamic there is another element involved and it isnt them but anything else is taliban. The taliban are not Islamic they have no knowledge of Islam and theyre are no authentic taliban in pakistan let alone in swat.

Please refrain from your personal attacks you do nothing to further your point of view by speaking in such a manner.

You keep denying the role of arabic radicalisation in our culture and wont speak out against these barbarics who have raped our land and country therefore you are infact a begharata and are not wanted on our land.

We are not discussing Arabs and I don't see why you have gone off at this tangent.

I am asking you why you dont critise arab governments for openly joinly hands with Israel and America against the palestinians. Why dont you critisise arab governments for having no policy but americas policy. Why dont you critise them for their negligence towards the muslim world.

Listen to yourself, why would I need to impose my religion on someone who supposedly adheres to the same religion?

You cant impose your own brand of radical Islam on anyone through the barrel of an AK.

The Quran was revealed in Arabic do you reject its influence?

The nobel Quran is a guide for humanity. Can you provide any proof it tells us to leave our culture and traditions and adopt arabic ones especially if our traditions do not contradict Islamic values.

Since when have Pashtuns believed in secularism? You do understand what secularism is don't you? Secularism is at loggerheads with Islam.

Dont just misinterpret it. Pashtoonwali does adhere to secularism. Islam is very democratic. The rights of women are not being respected by the taliban but in Islam they are free to get an education and attend schools and work and so on. Democracy doesnt have to be the american way just look at Iran but obviously i dont expect someone as narrowminded as you to comprehend that there is only one way to deal with fundamentalists like and that is through the crossights of a helicopter gunship.

Pashtun people of SWAT unarmed? Last time I was there it appeared every man and his dog was in possession of automatic assault rifles.



That is evidently not the case judging by the video you yourself have posted above.

Swat was a tourist heaven and the most peaceful place in NWFP. The guns were brought through waziristan. Are you normal? that video was after the taliban took over and had the suppourt of the people obviously the taliban were heavily armed but swat used to be a peaceful place.

It seems you do not understand the meaning of the "above fields" yourself, never mind their importance. Do yourself a favour and educate yourself as to the meaning of Astrology before you speak of such matters.

Astrology was never a subject that Muslim scientists delved into, in fact it is Haram to do so.

Well sorry typo i meant astronomy never the less i dont think you would understand the importance of moving ahead in these fields your probably more interested in building more and more madrassahs and beard sizes and trousers not being above ankle and all that stupid stuff taliban teach and preach.

So you deny the command of the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him in which he ordered us to have concern for other Muslims?

No i dont deny it but is it logical to have concern for others when our homeland is flooded with the blood of our youth,women and elderly.
Wouldnt democracy be the same with no inflence of religion but look at Islamic nations that have adopted it their own way and with respect to Islamic traditions. I say secularism because i want our women to have all the rights of education and employment that Islam allows anyway but for some reason the taliban dont accept this. Islam is very progessive and moderate.
Anyway its becoming more and more clear by other peoples responses that we as pakistanis reject this unislamic and backward way of life that you may think is sharia. This thinking is indeed a cancer we will all as a nation have to sacrifice to eliminate. We are all in no way against sharia but this is not sharia.

 

[Conscientious objector]

First of all All-Green, I would like to commend you on your manner of discussion.The etiquette you have adhered to throughout is admirable, especially considering how unpalatable my views must be for you.I think we can all (and I include myself first and foremost) take a lesson from you.

To proceed,

You make GOP sound like Nazis and your accusations on GOP in being similar to TTP fall flat on their face...
Have you visited Pakistan in the last ten years?

Yes I have visited Pakistan several times within the last ten years

Anybody and everybody can voice their concerns and as long as they are not involved in terrorist activitites or providing physical support...no one gets arrested for saying something the GOP does not like and be given TTP style punishments...the least of which is swift gunshot and the other more painful ones include slicing of the throat with a dull blade to make it slow and hellish experience, giving thousands of cuts to the body over many hours...etc.
TTP butchered and hanged all those who opposed them as traitors and agents of America....thousands were killed like this

This seems to be one of the fundamental points we are disagreeing on, the conduct of the TTP . I have a hard time accepting that they really were as bad as is being made out. I feel a lot of the horror stories we are being told are Government propaganda designed to malign their enemy. This type of propaganda is not unique to the GOP, all governments engage in this type of media campaign before the commencement of any wars or military interventions .Governments go to great lengths to convince their public that what they are doing is right and just and in their interest.


I have seen videos of Taliban who were handing out the haadh punishment to someone caught in possession of drugs,they were lashing him very lightly,the Talib administering the punishment was keeping his elbow tucked closely in to his side without raising his arm above shoulder height which is a condition stipulated in the sharia. I have seen policemen in Pakistan beating people a lot more severely for lesser crimes than possession of drugs in fact the teachers in the schools in Pakistan hit their pupils harder than this.If the Taliban really were as barbaric as many have been led to believe then surely they would have executed the criminal in question on the spot or at the very least given him such a beating that he would have been left crippled, but no they gave him a number of light strokes with a small whip, in strict accordance with Islamic teaching.

and you would have us believe that GOP is no different...by Allah that is not at all true...even though we barrage our government with all sorts of criticism, this is not something we can accuse them of doing...you have taken it too far in your love for Taliban.

Maybe if you ask the thousands of innocent Pakistanis that have been tortured,who have disappeared,who have been sold to the americans, who are languishing in jails with no hope of a fair hearing abut the GOP you might hear a different response.

In a nutshell your attempt to equate the cold blooded assassinations and mass murders of the opponents of TTP and GOP's policing (not killing, abusing etc.) of few rioters for few hours is one of the biggest error in judgement...either this or you get your kicks by seeing TTP blast away innocent Pakistanis in the name of Islam whilst you sit in UK sipping your evening tea?
I hope it is the former.

Let me make something very clear I do not see the current situation in Pakistan as some kind of joke,my heart breaks when I hear about the suffering and difficulties that are being endured by the Muslims of Pakistan.Let me also state clearly,categorically and unequivocally that if the TTP are indeed the way you say they are, then I denounce them as a group of savage criminals that need to be taken out,I have nothing to do with them and will never defend them.

I have read through your post brother and I take on board what you have said.A few things I think we need to take into consideration when we decide which side of the fence we want to sit on.

Pakistan, in fact the whole Muslim world is under an intense ideological attack by the extremist secularist who are seeking to relegate Islam to a few personal rituals which have no bearing on the lives and daily activities of the Muslims.In effect they seek to rid the world from the true Islam and replace it with something akin to Christianity etc

One only has to take a look at some of the views being expressed by members of this very forum to understand how much the ummah has been affected by this ideological onslaught.

We need to act because the extremism of the secularists breeds extremism on the part of the Muslims.The Muslims out of sheer desperation and as reaction to the secular camp resort to extremism of their own.

Secularism is clear Kufr and it is a affront an an insult to Allah subhanu wata ala. I will InshaAllah post some articles on secularism which I hope you and others will read and take on board.

May Allah guide us to the correct path, the path that he the most high is pleased with Aaaameeen.


wasalam