The PAF's quest for a hi-tech platform

[PAFAce]

Since 1990, after implementation of the Pressler Amendment, the PAF has consistently been searching for hi-tech and lo-tech aircrafts (non-US) to strengthen/replenish its fleet. We have looked at the MiG-29, the Su-27, the JAS-39 Grippen, the Mirage 2000-V etc. as possible answers in the past and failed to find a single jet that could be successfully inducted, due to technological, economic or political reasons. Therefore, we had to revert to our legendary ingenuity and workmanship to upgrade/salvage our F-16 Block 15s, used Mirage IIIs, Mirage Vs, and incorporate large numbers of F-7s.

However, times have changed and we have emerged stronger and more independent than ever before.

The lo-to-mid level technological planes requirement is currently being met with the induction of the JF-17. Later versions of the the JF-17 may become a mid-to-hi tech plane (I am no expert, however, upgrades on a home-built plane are almost certain). My question, however, is regarding the constant search of the PAF for a hi-tech solution.

Will the PAF's long search for a hi-tech plane end with the FC-20 (assuming its an upgraded J-10A) and the few F-16 Block 50/52+. In other words, I am trying to assess whether the 3 - 5 squadrons of FC-20 and F-15 B/52s that we will gain in the near future (Inshallah), be the answer to the PAF's hi-tech aircraft requirements.

I was going to post this in the FC-20 thread, but since its quite broad, I decided to start a new thread.

 

[qsaark]

Will the PAF's long search for a hi-tech plane end with the FC-20 (assuming its an upgraded J-10A) and the few F-16 Block 50/52+. In other words, I am trying to assess whether the 3 - 5 squadrons of FC-20 and F-15 B/52s that we will gain in the near future (Inshallah), be the answer to the PAF's hi-tech aircraft requirements.

Technology continues to evolve. Supposedly hi-tech equipment of TODAY is obsolete tomorrow. So the quest will never end, even if we can get our hands on a F-22 type beast. How many squadrons of FC-20 we need, depends on what our enemy acquires. I guess PAF won’t like to let the gap go wider than 1:3.

 

[metalfalcon]

PAF is modernizing and soon PAF will become a Fierce Force to Reckon with. PAF's Highest Priority is self Reliance, Then comes Chinese Option and then PAF most Favorite of all times F-16 From USA and in the last but least the European option.

 

[PAFAce]

That's all good, but my question is not whether the PAF will be a 'fierce force to reckon with' as metalfalcon suggested. Neither was it about long term strategy or upgradation as qsaark suggested. I was asking whether, for the first time since we received our first F-16s, the PAF would finally have a jet that they consider 'Hi-Tech' (i.e., the FC-20 and F-16 Block 52).

The Story of PAF is full of the issues the PAF faced after the 1990s and our failure to get a 'hi-tech' platform despite efforts. I would just like to know whether, after 20 years of searching, we have finally found one for the next 10-15 years.

 

[blain2]

That's all good, but my question is not whether the PAF will be a 'fierce force to reckon with' as metalfalcon suggested. Neither was it about long term strategy or upgradation as qsaark suggested. I was asking whether, for the first time since we received our first F-16s, the PAF would finally have a jet that they consider 'Hi-Tech' (i.e., the FC-20 and F-16 Block 52).

The Story of PAF is full of the issues the PAF faced after the 1990s and our failure to get a 'hi-tech' platform despite efforts. I would just like to know whether, after 20 years of searching, we have finally found one for the next 10-15 years.

I think high-tech would be a mix of F-16s/FC-20s and also certain batches of JF-17s (if we go for a western avonics/weapons fit with a batch approach).

For the PAF, high tech focus will not be on just the fighter aircraft in the future, rather it will be with netcentricity and fusion of sensors (both in the air and the ground). All of the aircraft that are being inducted are high tech enough for the regional theats. Our adversary is not inducting 5th generation, stealth aircraft in the near future. As such, aircraft with advanced Air Intercept radars (AESA ideally), BVR and 5th gen WVRAAMs, ECM and ISR (Intel, surveillance and recce) capabilities would do the job. I really don't see why any of these capabilities cannot be integrated into the F-16, FC-20 or JF-17 programs.

 

[ejaz007]

PAF search for planes shall never end. However we shall be less dependent on others compared to in the past due to arrival of JF-17. JF-17 fitted with western weapons and radars shall be a good plane and shall form the backbone of the air force. PAF plans to have around 250 of these.

Than we shall assuming every thing goes according to plan have around 78 F-16's, 18 of which shall be block 52 and rest with MLU by 2010.

At the same time we shall also by 2010 have around 36 FC0-20.

Broadly we shall have around 78 F-16's (34 original, 26 embargoed planes to be delivered as per deal signed in 2006, 10 already delivered, 18 block 52 ordered), 36 FC-20 (deliveries to begin in december 2009), 40 JF-17 (10 have already been delivered to PAF and I am assuming initial production rate of 15 planes per year) by 2010. These planes are enough to equip around 10 squadrons of 16 aircraft each. Then their shall be ROSE Mirage and F-7 PG's to supplement them.

PAF shall be better compared to today and then if our economy imporved we may still go for another fighter hopefully non Chinese.

 

[tarrar]

Its not end of the world why are we still looking at Americans as our last hope we don't need them ANY MORE we should and must stick with Chinese but we still stick with the Americans that they will give us this they will give us that F-22 forget it not even in million years they will offer us this so its time to forget the Americans if we really want to improve our air force in short time we should stick with the Chinese and we should talk with the Russians may be Russians might not give us high tech air craft but the chances are 50-50. If they don't then we can look for other air crafts from them but no we still want US help they will not help us specially not in the air force they will help the Indians but not Pakistan we have seen it in the past few months. What i am telling you people is that stop dreaming of American air crafts and think of what can be done in short time and the solution is China and Russia. Stick with the Chinese our engineers should work together to more joint air crafts like JF-17. China air force is having a very bright future and we should be there for it and then there are Russia to. Thank you Pakistan China friendship Zindabad.

 

[batmannow]

PAF search for planes shall never end. However we shall be less dependent on others compared to in the past due to arrival of JF-17. JF-17 fitted with western weapons and radars shall be a good plane and shall form the backbone of the air force. PAF plans to have around 250 of these.

Than we shall assuming every thing goes according to plan have around 78 F-16's, 18 of which shall be block 52 and rest with MLU by 2010.

At the same time we shall also by 2010 have around 36 FC0-20.

Broadly we shall have around 78 F-16's (34 original, 26 embargoed planes to be delivered as per deal signed in 2006, 10 already delivered, 18 block 52 ordered), 36 FC-20 (deliveries to begin in december 2009), 40 JF-17 (10 have already been delivered to PAF and I am assuming initial production rate of 15 planes per year) by 2010. These planes are enough to equip around 10 squadrons of 16 aircraft each. Then their shall be ROSE Mirage and F-7 PG's to supplement them.

PAF shall be better compared to today and then if our economy imporved we may still go for another fighter hopefully non Chinese.

ejaz007, SIR
Every thing you had posted in this post is good, but i dont understand whats the problem with chinese fighters, even our economy go anti-clock wise, and even we had , the enough money, why dont we invest that money with china on some of new projects, i think the time has already come that we should change our mind set, in the tough times , when no body seems to care about our defense needs, its only china who stand with us on the strongest feets, they never changed thier polices towards us,just because we doesnt have the best of the economy?
i think , we should expolre more oppourtunities, with china & put our trust & our money to our only real friend CHINA!

 

[ejaz007]

Its not end of the world why are we still looking at Americans as our last hope we don't need them ANY MORE we should and must stick with Chinese but we still stick with the Americans that they will give us this they will give us that F-22 forget it not even in million years they will offer us this so its time to forget the Americans if we really want to improve our air force in short time we should stick with the Chinese and we should talk with the Russians may be Russians might not give us high tech air craft but the chances are 50-50. If they don't then we can look for other air crafts from them but no we still want US help they will not help us specially not in the air force they will help the Indians but not Pakistan we have seen it in the past few months. What i am telling you people is that stop dreaming of American air crafts and think of what can be done in short time and the solution is China and Russia. Stick with the Chinese our engineers should work together to more joint air crafts like JF-17. China air force is having a very bright future and we should be there for it and then there are Russia to. Thank you Pakistan China friendship Zindabad.

A US block-52 F-16 costs around USD 50 miilion. Europfighter/Gripen costs around USD 70-80 million. Considering these planes capabilities and PAF experience which is worth buying.

If we had 50 percent chances of buying fighters from Russia you would have seen some by now in PAF colors. Its not that hard to swing other 50 percent chances either by hook or crook and remember we have quite an experienced crooks now

 

[ejaz007]

ejaz007, SIR
Every thing you had posted in this post is good, but i dont understand whats the problem with chinese fighters, even our economy go anti-clock wise, and even we had , the enough money, why dont we invest that money with china on some of new projects, i think the time has already come that we should change our mind set, in the tough times , when no body seems to care about our defense needs, its only china who stand with us on the strongest feets, they never changed thier polices towards us,just because we doesnt have the best of the economy?
i think , we should expolre more oppourtunities, with china & put our trust & our money to our only real friend CHINA!

The best answer to this question is to maintain stocks of critical parts.

At the moment whether you like it or not we still need F-16. These are the best fighters we have and for some time these shall be the best we shall have.

Have you heard the slogan sher aya sher aya . Our F-16's fall into that category. IAF has developed a F-16 syndrome and its better if we keep this syndrome for some time while we search for other options.

 

[Super Falcon]

i think if russia is willing to sell us fighter jets than PAF seriously consider SU 35 Flanker which is superior to indian SU 30 and it can gain air superiority to all indian fighter jets only PAK-FA will give SU 35 run for its money but with our fighter pilots i think SU 35 VS PAK-FA will make a even contest

 

[Moscow]

i think if russia is willing to sell us fighter jets than PAF seriously consider SU 35 Flanker which is superior to indian SU 30 and it can gain air superiority to all indian fighter jets only PAK-FA will give SU 35 run for its money but with our fighter pilots i think SU 35 VS PAK-FA will make a even contest

sir the question of IF does not arrive at all, su35 is not for sale to pakistan because many of the tech are to be used in the pakfa,moreover sukhoi is working with india at present so its out of the question, yes the mig 35 is available if india does go for it.


i think pakistan should tie up with gripen to develop the gripen 5th gen plane.
thanx

 

[Patriot]

We will not buy any Russian Fighters anytime soon guys.Just wait a 10 or 20 years then China will catch up with Russia and i think our Air Force will have a lot of Chinese Jets..As long as India is buying from Russia they will not sell us anything.

 

[duhastmish]

sir
there is one big issue we need to look into. Pakistan have just one enemy around it, unlike Indians, we kind of made enemy all around us, with Nepal Maoist, sri lanka - ltte, Bangladesh we all know, just like china and pakistan.
THEY JUST NEED A defense TO PROTECT SELF, and their air force is very much capable of it. i doubt Pakistan will ever come to indian soil to hit us.
and as for afghan - its just what they had to pay for their friendship with Americans, ( and i bet something might happen of this sort of to India too in future.) and they are fighting to kind of their own people.
and sir i know china will supply Pakistan with lot of help. like most people said.. and for long time.
But Pakistan need to start developing on its own, never depend too much even on your friends.

as for su-35 that will never happen since Russian need Indian more than they need Pakistan. its all give and take relation. same goes for india and china - china need pakistan more than they need india

thankyou.

 

[ahmeddsid]

I hear the SU35 has been based on the Su30 MKI which India has. I mean many of the stuff has been incorporated in the SU35. I am waiting for the PAK-FA!!!! Its gonna be one helluva fighter.

I think Pakistan should go for some french planes, they are awesome!