The Nuclear Battlefield - India vs Pakistan

[Aslan]

You haven't given any suggestion to counter Indian actions/strategies apart from this emotional atyachar.

BTW, we already know your stregths when we are at receiving end. remember Khalistan, Kashmir, Ne etc. etc....India has not started paying back yet. Pray it won't.

Remeber, we have seen what happens when less resources are spent on fueling insurgencies on large area. Consider while replacing words less and large....

Frankly I have not even tried to put forth an argument that how will we counter a rediculas claim. Come on I was just replying to something that made no sence, but was definetly insulting to my country. So as I said in the post that you quoted respect my country like you like yours to be respected.

 

[vsdoc]

Where have I insulted you or pakistan man?

Not that I owe you an explanation, but I would really like to know.

Or are you mistaking the self-righteous indignation of a wounded ego that comes with being shown your place to be an insult?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Mercenary]

Who gives a fig about elite and mullas here man?

Get back to the topic. This is not a class debate.

India is hitting Pakistan hard ..... on land, in and from the air, and from the sea.

But the war has started long before ..... with other fronts being opened and kept primed.

Old festering wounds in the tattered Pakistani fabric are presented a prime opportunity to burst forth with a longstanding pent-up pustular discharge in Balochistan ..... aided and supported by the Indian establishment and other entities working at undermining Pakistan.

The world nods in disapproval at Pakistani atrocities and gives a silent nod of approval to the Indian liberation.

Meanwhile, winter is over, and there is a fresh push from across the Afghan border to keep thing boiling and crackling further up North.

On the West Pakistan is fighting to remain Pakistan.

In the East Pakistan is fighting to keep India out ..... along a vast border that eats up close to 70% of its force levels.

But the Indian dam of patience and statesmanship has finally burst, and the waters run wild, inundating Pakistan from more than one shore.

The waters burst through the mountains in the North, with Kargil having provided a vital mock exercise and lessons learned.

The chicken neck with China is twisted and broken off, the bird now flapping in its death throes. The US makes the requisite low-rumble noises to keep the Chinese quiet.

A new route is opened up for forces to circle around and start squeezing the Pakistani head between a rock and a hard place.

The US asks for calm and peace and sanity to return ..... while Indian troops bolster the West flank, and GI Joes look away ..... or lend a helping hand ..... depending of where pakistan's tenuous grip of the last vestiges of US sympathy lie at the time.

The naval waves start flowing in from the western sea board first, with the eastern port assets deployed and rounding the cape close behind.

The Pakistani navy goes out bravely .... but the inevitable happens 3 days later, and Karachi falls. Gwadar doesn't need to fall ..... the Balochis have managed that first ...... as Indian troops stream in from the sea and from the East.

Pakistan is now Punjab and Sindh is danger of imploding.

They have bigger fish to fry than worry about Balochistan declaring Independence, as a protectorate of India.

Or about FATA, NWFP, and Waziristan going back into the Afghan fold ..... administered by the Indo-Afghan Peace Keeping Force (IAPKF).

General Kayani finally gives in, and 4 weeks to the date that India mobilised its Rapid Action Corps, the formal Charter of Surrender is signed, with him handing over his sword to General Kapoor ..... in Jhelum, Punjab.

The Indian forces pull back in a phased manner, and 8 weeks later, India and now-non-nuclear Pakistan start an era of a 1000 years of Peace and Friendship, along with Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, and Sri Lanka.

The SARC truly becomes a potent reality now, starting an era of tech sharing, common currency (the Rupee), open trade corridors, and civil exchange in culture, education, sports, power, agriculture, and water, with whom China develops close trade ties, to make this the richest region of the world in less than a decade.

Cheers, Doc

I don't agree with your analysis.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.

 

[Aslan]

Where have I insulted you or pakistan man?

Not that I owe you an explanation, but I would really like to know.

Or are you mistaking the self-righteous indignation of a wounded ego that comes with being shown your place to be an insult?

Cheers, Doc

Well I dont know about you but when you start writing an essay about how your country will do this and that, and how your armies will run over Pakistan, and how my fellow Pakistanis will do this and that. That is insulting; to me.
I will tell you something; agree to it or not that is your problem. What I feel is not a wonded ego, it is pride in being what I am.
I am sindh, Balochistan, Sarhad, Panjab, Kashmir. I am Pakistan.
And I am proud of it.

 

[Naradmuni]

I don't agree with your analysis.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.

You forgot to bring in the "Nuke" dimension.

Your whole plot turns upside down in this case. Care to elaborate on this dimension too.

 

[Naradmuni]

Well I dont know about you but when you start writing an essay about how your country will do this and that, and how your armies will run over Pakistan, and how my fellow Pakistanis will do this and that. That is insulting; to me.
I will tell you something; agree to it or not that is your problem. What I feel is not a wonded ego, it is pride in being what I am.
I am sindh, Balochistan, Sarhad, Panjab, Kashmir. I am Pakistan.
And I am proud of it.

Aaal izz well, except for the highlighted part.

 

[Aslan]

Mercenary

Well merc! it is not as simple as 123 that you have stated. Yes the Pakistan Army has its handycaps but then so does the Indians. And also we are not sure that what the Pakistanis will put up in the field. How can we be so sure that there are not contingency plans put in place already. If you and me sitting on a forum could think of this stuff, the army and the AF have had some back up long ago don’t you think.

Like the indians have stated that they are getting ready to fight on 2 fronts and they have planed it alredy. So what do you think that the GHQ; and its staff is doing?

 

[Aslan]

Aaal izz well, except for the highlighted part.

Same here!

 

[ek_indian]

I don't agree with your analysis.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.

Thanks for the sane post. This is what I was expecting.

However the biggest issue Pakistan has, IMO, is not any one of these but fund for above expansion and modernization programs. Its current economic condition and international geo-political realities are against all these.

I am still of in openion before losing upto such extent, nuclear weapons would be bound to use.

Also india (no side infact) does not seem to have 3-4 week time because of international pressure.

Lastly, I suspect China will be militarily involved. They may supply stuff to Pakistan. However they can only delay the consequences not avoid it.

 

[karan.1970]

You forgot to bring in the "Nuke" dimension.

Your whole plot turns upside down in this case. Care to elaborate on this dimension too.

No country (including India and China) in a nuclear stand off will use Nukes except as a last resort (when existence is threatened) since it would mean the nuke initiator sustaining forever crippling damage (at best) if not getting totally wiped out..

The only time nukes have been used is when the target did not have any of its own to hit back with.

The nuke option is like a typical Hindi/Pakistani movie in which the hero yells.. Ku tte main tera khoon pee jaoonga.. Never happens..

 

[karan.1970]

Now did you miss out to read on the articles posted by many over the relations between Turkey and Pakistan. Go search them and or ask the Turkish members on this forum that what it is all about and then try to post some common sense. As far as Zardari goes, well it is an open secret that what all of Pakistanis think of him. And let’s see that how long will he survive.

No need for a personal attack. What I am posting is my opinion and you are totally free to disagree. But claiming that you have a monoply on Common sense and hence can decide what is and what is not, defies the same common sense you are trying to preach.

 

[Condor]

I don't agree with your analysis.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.

Even with the present Order of Battle it is still possible to win - even win decisively against overwhelming odds.
But for that to happen, few things need to change.

 

[Aslan]

No need for a personal attack. What I am posting is my opinion and you are totally free to disagree. But claiming that you have a monoply on Common sense and hence can decide what is and what is not, defies the same common sense you are trying to preach.

Well the same goes for you, how can you claim that the Pakistani members here are promoting the Turk-Pak Relations based on the technological facts only. Well that is why I asked you to go do some resaearch, and then post. And there are many articles here on PDF for you to go through that will explain the relationship in detial.

 

[Windjammer]

I don't agree with your analysis.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.

David-Ben-Hura is a retired Israeli army Colonel and my former neighbor, presently he is a freelance journalist and his reports and articles have appeared on CBS, CNN and Scotland on Sunday newspaper, he is well known in his circle for exposing some facts on the Pan Am disaster over Lockerbie. You can be sure that his military experience and knowledge is beyond any gloating and chest thumping and we indeed had some interesting discussions or should i say knowledge enhancement. Amongst other facts an interesting disclosure made by David was that Pakistan Army was one of the few which has evolved what's called a "War Plan" in military terms, which is it's trump card in any future battles, not only that but several Arab and other countries are adamant to obtain this from Pakistan.
Other than that, while commenting on the quantity advantage of then Soviet Block countries, Chuck Yeagar is often quoted that a Warplane is only as good as it's pilot.

 

[vsdoc]

I don't agree with your analysis.

And thanks for telling me WHY.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

There has been a lot of talk by Balochis IN Pakistan (and not disgruntled expats as many of your compatriots like to dismiss the movement as) that they would welcome Indian help if it meant independence finally from pakistan. There was an entire feature with interviews just a few days ago on BBC. And there have been multiple wars of independence against pakistani forces - that is a historical fact. So it is difficult to pass this off as a simple insurgency of discontent.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

Agreed so far. The scrimmage line I referred to earlier .... but two steps forward, one back, by sheer weight and firepower we bring to bear.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

Agreed. And there will be Indian sorties out of Afghanistan bases too .... count on that. The Pakistani flyboys will simply not have enough options to even mount a modicum of a defense. Unlike on land, this will be a wipeout ..... and very early into the war at that. Our strategy demands early neutralisation.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

Agreed on the blockade part ..... and said as much in an earlier post derided by many here. Missiles will not work against our submarines .... from which most of our missile launches will come to take out your missile defenses. The surface ships can stay out of range (provided you get the missiles in the first place .... and when) till the submarines ensure safe passage.

The next phase will be massive saturation bombardment, before the land force landings to put boots on the ground.

In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.

Agreed ..... though as Narad put it, here discretion will control the natural impulse of a invading force to push too far inland and force pakistan into a corner.

Karachi however will fall. And there will be a corridor for land forces sync-up from the east and the sea to ensure that Balochistan has an option for free and unthreatened referendum.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

Here our views defer. You naval capabilities suggest (unless you pull some as yet unknown ace from out your sleeve) that your force will cease to be a plausible deterrent in 72 hours.

China has already by now lost its transit land route. And the US has made the correct sounds. One can but live in hope, but I see China sitting this one out ..... sensibly.

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.

I have replied to this part of a previous post of yours in a previous post of mine.

Once again, thanks for the measured reply.

Cheers, Doc