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THE MYTH OF NORTH AFRICA AS ARAB,UNCOVERED

That makes no sense. Look at Egypt's history.


Egypt's Oldest Known Art Identified, Is 15,000 Years Old
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070711-egypt-artwork.html

The engravings—estimated to be about 15,000 years old—were chiseled into several sandstone cliff faces at the village of Qurta, about 400 miles (640 kilometers) south of Cairo (Egypt map).

Of the more than 160 figures found so far, most depict wild bulls. The biggest is nearly six feet (two meters) wide.

The drawings "push Egyptian art, religion, and culture back to a much earlier time," Ikram said.

The team's findings will be published in the September issue of the British quarterly journal Antiquity.


The Nile has been the lifeline of its region for much of human history.[9] The fertile floodplain of the Nile gave humans the opportunity to develop a settled agricultural economy and a more sophisticated, centralized society that became a cornerstone in the history of human civilization.[10]Nomadic modern human hunter-gatherers began living in the Nile valley through the end of the Middle Pleistocene some 120,000 years ago. By the late Paleolithic period, the arid climate of Northern Africa became increasingly hot and dry, forcing the populations of the area to concentrate along the river region.

Hate to break it to you man but us Egyptians have been around a lot longer.


Sorry to break your bubble but some random carvings don't make a civilization. In Pakistan we found some tools used by humans which apparently goes back 50k years. But as a student of Islamic studies, humanity is at max 10k year old, some scholars even mention 7000. Not more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ncient-society-2-500-years-older-thought.html

Indus Valley civilisation may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs: Ancient society is 2,500 years older than thought



Mehrgarh town, on western Indus plains was around 9000 years before today, the earliest Pharaoh known to mankind, by name Nar'mer was around 5100 years ago. Do the math!!!

http://www.dawn.com/news/1261513

Indus Valley Civilisation is at least 8,000 years old, and not just 5,500 years old. It took root well before the Egyptian (7,000 BC to 3,000 BC) and Mesopotamian (6,500 BC to 3,100 BC) civilisations. What’s more, the researchers have found evidence of a pre-Harappan civilisation that existed for at least 1,000 years before this.


http://www.ancient-code.com/new-stu...ation-predates-ancient-egyptian-civilization/

A new study indicates that the Ancient Indus Valley Civilization is around 8,000 years old and predates Ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian by thousands of years.


Arabic did not exist in pharaons times....

That means Egyptians are not Arabs.
 
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I can't find words to describe how dumb and stupid some reactions and postings here are.

It's 2017. Today we know that genetics aren't the sole determinant of national identities. Otherwise you have to consider English, Dutch and all of the Scandinavian nations as German whereas Poles, Croatians, Bulgarians, Serbians etc. are nothing else than Russians with congenital speech defects (haha). For instance, Western scientists weren't able to find a genetic continuum from the Old Greeks to Modern Greeks.

And today North African people are speaking different Arabic dialects. Of course, they have specific cultural features and this is also a fact. But on the other hand you cannot simply say that Omanis, Kuwaitis and Bahrainis share the exact same culture and traditions but yet you agree that all of them have the same origin.

Tbh, the absolute majority of North Africans consider themselves as Arabs and, in return, the absolute majority of the Gulf Arabs see North Africans as equal Arab compatriots. Besides, the whole world associates North Africa with Arabian culture these days.

Simply put, they are Arabs and the lasting non-Arab elements in their societies have already lost against the Arabic influence.

Still, some North Africans like Algerians aren't that much fond of pan-Arab ideas. This is also true but Algerians in general are accepting their Arab identity.
 
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I can't find words to describe how dumb and stupid some reactions and postings here are.

It's 2017. Today we know that genetics aren't the sole determinant of national identities. Otherwise you have to consider English, Dutch and all of the Scandinavian nations as German whereas Poles, Croatians, Bulgarians, Serbians etc. are nothing else than Russians with congenital speech defects (haha). For instance, Western scientists weren't able to find a genetic continuum from the Old Greeks to Modern Greeks.

And today North African people are speaking different Arabic dialects. Of course, they have specific cultural features and this is also a fact. But on the other hand you cannot simply say that Omanis, Kuwaitis and Bahrainis share the exact same culture and traditions but yet you agree that all of them have the same origin.

Tbh, the absolute majority of North Africans consider themselves as Arabs and, in return, the absolute majority of the Gulf Arabs see North Africans as equal Arab compatriots. Besides, the whole world associates North Africa with Arabian culture these days.

Simply put, they are Arabs and the lasting non-Arab elements in their societies have already lost against the Arabic influence.

Still, some North Africans like Algerians aren't that much fond of pan-Arab ideas. This is also true but Algerians in general are accepting their Arab identity.

North africa see herself as Arabs, but not a DNA base, but more of a cultural view. Language/history/religions etc.... But if you ask a north african which ancestor they belong, they will tell you berbers/arabs/europeans/Phoenicians. Try ask one ,if he looks like an arab in north africa and you will have your answer...
 
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Qura'an also says that there are prophets you know about and others you do not know about!, So let's not speculate..Thanks

Where is the speculation here? All indicators are pointing towards Indus as the place which suffer the wrath of Allah in the shape of floods. There archaeologist who are looking for the arc of Noah who believe it's resting somewhere in suleman ranges of Baluchistan or up north in mountains.
 
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North africa see herself as Arabs, but not a DNA base, but more of a cultural view. Language/history/religions etc.... But if you ask a north african which ancestor you belong, they will tell you berbers/arabs/europeans/Phoenicians

When you ask Arabs in Arabia what they consider themselves they will say Arabs too but that does not mean that we deny the fact that we also descend from native non-Arab Semitic peoples (and non-Semitic peoples) and civilizations.

For God's sake we have Southern Semitic speaking peoples in Southern Arabia (Yemen, Oman etc.) who are as native as anybody yet they do not consider themselves Arab.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Semitic_languages

Let me give you an concrete example. In KSA, contrary to popular believe, we have some of the most diverse people and basically we have citizens of all origins. Africans, Uzbeks, Turks, Persians, Caucasians, South Asians, South East Asians. Descendants of Muslim pilgrims who went to Makkah and Madinah for the past 1400 years. Nowadays they are Saudi Arabian citizens and their families have lived in Hijaz (mostly) for centuries and intermarried with locals and other peoples. They consider themselves Arabs and also have Arab ancestry but they are obviously not "pure" whatever that means.

Arabs might be one of the oldest recorded ethnic groups which a history of at least 3000 years but in the Arab world, the Arabian Peninsula included, you had many other peoples who predate Arabs. Arabs did obviously not jump down from the sky 3000 years ago but the people who began to call themselves Arabs and started to speak Arabic 3000 years ago in the borderlands of Arabia, Levant and Mesopotamia, were obviously descendants of previous native civilizations and peoples who happened to be closely related due to sharing similar ethnic groups (Semites and Hamites) and speaking similar languages and having mostly similar cultures and obviously geographic proximity.

This below describes it well:

Before the expansion of the Arab Empire, "Arab" referred to any of the largely nomadic Semitic people from the northern to the central Arabian Peninsula and from the Syrian Desert.[32][33] Currently "Arab" refers to a large number of people whose native regions form the Arab world. The ties that bind Arabs are ethnic, linguistic, cultural, historical, identical, geographicaland political.[34][35][36] The Arabs have their own customs, language, architecture, art, literature, music, dance, media, cuisine, dress, society, sports and mythology.[37][38][39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs

A more simple solution, which many have been proponents of lately, is that everyone who has Arabic as a mother tongue and considers himself an Arab, is an Arab.

At the end of the day all humans have the same DNA and ethnic groups are largely social constructs but it is nevertheless a fact that certain regions, like the Arab world, have specific haplgroups and cluster with each other. Same story with other parts of the world.

That however does not mean that all Arabs have the exact same history or culture which many non-Arabs misunderstand or are simply unable to understand.

You go to KSA and have such a discussion and you will witness long discussions among Hijazis, Hasawis, Southerners, Northerns etc. doing their utmost to show how "different" they are from say Najdis (the dominating minority). Similar to the city-countryside divide in every Arab country.

You think that an cosmopolitan Tunisian from Tunis has the same identical culture or identity as an nomadic Berber/Arab in Southern or Central Tunisia?

Such discussions are simply too simplistic.
 
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When you ask Arabs in Arabia what they consider themselves they will say Arabs too but that does not mean that we deny the fact that we also descend from native non-Arab Semitic peoples (and non-Semitic peoples) and civilizations.

Arabs might be one of the oldest recorded ethnic groups which a history of at least 3000 years but in the Arab world, the Arabian Peninsula included, you had many other peoples who predate Arabs. Arabs did obviously not jump down from the sky 3000 years ago but the people who began to call themselves Arabs and started to speak Arabic 3000 years ago in the borderlands of Arabia, Levant and Mesopotamia, were obviously descendants of previous native civilizations of peoples.

This below describes it well:

Before the expansion of the Arab Empire, "Arab" referred to any of the largely nomadic Semitic people from the northern to the central Arabian Peninsula and from the Syrian Desert.[32][33] Currently "Arab" refers to a large number of people whose native regions form the Arab world. The ties that bind Arabs are ethnic, linguistic, cultural, historical, identical, geographicaland political.[34][35][36] The Arabs have their own customs, language, architecture, art, literature, music, dance, media, cuisine, dress, society, sports and mythology.[37][38][39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs


yep, but "Arab" as a whole is less and less used in North africa, per exemple in Tunisia, (since I can't speak for the others even if I know a lot of them in the same spectrum) we are using less the "arabs" word to qualify the tunisian ppl. we have other roots who are coming out like amazigh ( even if in tunisia they are less than 5-10%)/ berbers and more than the other it's the Carthagians roots, who is taking more and more spaces.
 
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Where is the speculation here? All indicators are pointing towards Indus as the place which suffer the wrath of Allah in the shape of floods. There archaeologist who are looking for the arc of Noah who believe it's resting somewhere in suleman ranges of Baluchistan or up north in mountains.
Sumer and Babylon too in the fertile crescent civilization, so it could be either..
 
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yep, but "Arab" as a whole is less and less used in North africa, per exemple in Tunisia, (since I can't speak for the others even if I know a lot of them in the same spectrum) we are using less the "arabs" word to qualify the tunisian ppl. we have other roots who are coming out like amazigh ( even if in tunisia they are less than 5-10%)/ berbers and more than the other it's the Carthagians roots, who is taking more and more spaces.

Today (2017) most people identity with their nationality first and foremost. Arab encompasses all Arabic-speaking peoples whoever they might be and wherever they might live.

All Tunisians that I know in person whether those from Tunisia (we have quite a lot of those in the GCC) or of Tunisian descent in France consider themselves Tunisians first and foremost and afterwards Arabs with a minority calling themselves Berbers or Arab-Berber mixtures.

When say Yemenis or Saudi Arabians talk about Arabs they automatically talk about all other Arabs and not themselves. "Where are the Arabs, where are the Arab governments" rhetoric whenever something bad happens.

It's all about perspective. Most non-Arabs group all Arabs under 1 single unified completely homogenous group of people (no such numerous people with such a long history living on such a big geographical area will be homogenous) so people that live in nation states (all people today) want to focus on their own little world's and regions and try to distinguish themselves.

An average European or foreigner would have no clue how to tell an Tunisian apart from an Saudi Arabian let alone an Tunisian city-dweller from an countryside dweller and vice versa.

I myself also have a tendency whenveer around Arabs or non-Arabs to emphasize my biggest heritage (Hijazi - although I also have Iraqi, Yemeni and distant Egyptian and Shami heritage).

Then you have those who go even more into detail and focus on their city, village, region within the region or even more so their family/tribe/clan.

Identity is a complex matter and can change.

To be completely honest with you I don't really recognize for once the fact that Arabia is not one single entity. I do not look at Jordanians, Egyptians or Yemenis as foreigners at all or Iraqis because there is no difference between an Iraqi Arab from Basra and an Saudi Arabian from nearby Khafji. Many of those borders are completely artificial. Or an Egyptian living just across the Red Sea. I have been around Egyptians living in Hijaz all my life and we have 100 times more things in common than the opposite. Even our Arabic dialects (Hijazi and Egyptian) are almost identical and you will struggle to find a single city-dweller in Hijaz (vast majority of the population) without any Egyptian ancestry or ties of some sort.

In other words I am not a big "worshipper" of modern-day nation states as identity, especially Arab/Middle Eastern identity (due to the sher history) is much more complex than that.
 
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North africa see herself as Arabs, but not a DNA base, but more of a cultural view. Language/history/religions etc.... But if you ask a north african which ancestor they belong, they will tell you berbers/arabs/europeans/Phoenicians. Try ask one ,if he looks like an arab in north africa and you will have your answer...

One of my best friends is a Tunisian. They always introduce themselves as Arabs in front of foreigners but if you probe they often bring up their old heritage (Berber, Phoenician etc.). But, who cares? They speak Arabic, they have adopted the Arabic identity and most of them look Arabic in the eyes of foreigners. This debate is useless.
 
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Today (2017) most people identity with their nationality first and foremost. Arab encompasses all Arabic-speaking peoples whoever they might be and wherever they might live.

All Tunisians that I know in person whether those from Tunisia (we have quite a lot of those in the GCC) or of Tunisian descent in France consider themselves Tunisians first and foremost and afterwards Arabs with a minority calling themselves Berbers or Arab-Berber mixtures.

When say Yemenis or Saudi Arabians talk about Arabs they automatically talk about all other Arabs and not themselves. "Where are the Arabs, where are the Arab governments" rhetoric whenever something bad happens.

It's all about perspective. Most non-Arabs group all Arabs under 1 single unified completely homogenous group of people (no such numerous people with such a long history living on such a big geographical area will be homogenous) so people that live in nation states (all people today) want to focus on their own little world's and regions and try to distinguish themselves.

An average European or foreigner would have no clue how to tell an Tunisian apart from an Saudi Arabian let alone an Tunisian city-dweller from an countryside dweller and vice versa.

I myself also have a tendency whenveer around Arabs or non-Arabs to emphasize my biggest heritage (Hijazi - although I also have Iraqi, Yemeni and distant Egyptian and Shami heritage).

Then you have those who go even more into detail and focus on their city, village, region within the region or even more so their family/tribe/clan.

Identity is a complex matter and can change.

To be completely honest with you I don't really recognize for once the fact that Arabia is not one single entity. I do not look at Jordanians or Yemenis as foreigners at all or Iraqis because there is no difference between an Iraqi Arab from Basra and an Saudi Arabian from nearby Khafji. Many of those borders are completely artificial.

Well I'm quite ok with what you say, meanwhile in tunisia we can make the differences btw someone from the coast and someone inside/back country. Tunisians in the coast are way more white and less darker eyes than the others.

One of my best friends is a Tunisian. They always introduce themselves as Arabs in front of foreigners but if you probe they often bring up their old heritage (Berber, Phoenician etc.). But, who cares? They speak Arabic, they have adopted the Arabic identity and most of them look Arabic in the eyes of foreigners. This debate is useless.

Well in France, you put an algerian/tunisian next to a saudi face, don't worry they will tell you who is "more" arab than the other
 
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Well I'm quite ok with what you say, meanwhile in tunisia we can make the differences btw someone from the coast and someone inside/back country. Tunisians in the coast are way more white and less darker eyes than the others.



Well in France, you put an algerian/tunisian next to a saudi face, don't worry they will tell you who is "more" arab than the other

Dude, I am not sure if you are a full-blooded Tunisian or not, but North Africans and Saudi Arabians look very much alike overall. At least this is the case with nearby Egyptians and Libyans so I doubt that it is any different when it comes to Tunisians. I can tell you for a fact that the Tunisian diaspora in the GCC would be very difficult to pick apart had most of you guys not warn Western clothing.



All of those guys could fit into KSA and none would look at them as foreigners.

Go watch some ISIS videos and detect the Arabic dialects. You would be unable to pick people apart or guess their identity unless through accent. I am mentioning ISIS because they wear the same clothing, mostly all have beards and long hair.

And no, please don't post a photo of the Saudi Arabian football team as the vast, vast majority of our football players are Afro-Arabs which are also found in North Africa, even more so for logical reasons (African continent and geographic proximity to Sub-Saharan Africa).

Anyway let me post some non-Afro Arab footballers from KSA:

Muhammad al-Sahlawi (topscorer of the Asian WC 2018 qualification)



Sami Al-Jaber (one of the greatest stars of all-time)



Now take a look at the African Player of the Year (Riyadh Mahrez) from Algeria. He looks like a textbook Arabian. Would fit right in.



You tell me if people could tell them apart of tell who is from where. French people would certainly not. I know because I have lived in France and I have grown up around Maghrebis and other Arabs both in the GCC and Europe.

Maghrebis like Arabians come in all shapes and forms. Some are dark, some are olive, some are "white/pale" while others are mixtures (most). Then you have Afro-Arabs. Not really a surprise.
 
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Sorry to break your bubble but some random carvings don't make a civilization. In Pakistan we found some tools used by humans which apparently goes back 50k years. But as a student of Islamic studies, humanity is at max 10k year old, some scholars even mention 7000. Not more.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ncient-society-2-500-years-older-thought.html

Indus Valley civilisation may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs: Ancient society is 2,500 years older than thought



Mehrgarh town, on western Indus plains was around 9000 years before today, the earliest Pharaoh known to mankind, by name Nar'mer was around 5100 years ago. Do the math!!!

http://www.dawn.com/news/1261513

Indus Valley Civilisation is at least 8,000 years old, and not just 5,500 years old. It took root well before the Egyptian (7,000 BC to 3,000 BC) and Mesopotamian (6,500 BC to 3,100 BC) civilisations. What’s more, the researchers have found evidence of a pre-Harappan civilisation that existed for at least 1,000 years before this.


http://www.ancient-code.com/new-stu...ation-predates-ancient-egyptian-civilization/

A new study indicates that the Ancient Indus Valley Civilization is around 8,000 years old and predates Ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian by thousands of years.

Listen my friend, I know it hurts but that's simply not true. Art that was carved in stone requires tools. That was 15,000 years ago. My people who were nomadic hunters(i.e., people who required tools to hunt) 120,000 years ago. So stop Egypt is by far the oldest or one of the oldest civilization.

A couple of sites with misdated evidence won't change that. I am sorry my friend but the Indus is not 2,500 years older then Egypt which has over 120,000 years of active and prolonged history.


Also Islamic scholars are not historians nor Archeologists. They can say all they want, the facts don't lie

That makes no sense. Look at Egypt's history.


Egypt's Oldest Known Art Identified, Is 15,000 Years Old
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070711-egypt-artwork.html

The engravings—estimated to be about 15,000 years old—were chiseled into several sandstone cliff faces at the village of Qurta, about 400 miles (640 kilometers) south of Cairo (Egypt map).

Of the more than 160 figures found so far, most depict wild bulls. The biggest is nearly six feet (two meters) wide.

The drawings "push Egyptian art, religion, and culture back to a much earlier time," Ikram said.

The team's findings will be published in the September issue of the British quarterly journal Antiquity.


The Nile has been the lifeline of its region for much of human history.[9] The fertile floodplain of the Nile gave humans the opportunity to develop a settled agricultural economy and a more sophisticated, centralized society that became a cornerstone in the history of human civilization.[10]Nomadic modern human hunter-gatherers began living in the Nile valley through the end of the Middle Pleistocene some 120,000 years ago. By the late Paleolithic period, the arid climate of Northern Africa became increasingly hot and dry, forcing the populations of the area to concentrate along the river region.

Hate to break it to you man but us Egyptians have been around a lot longer.

These are facts my friend, your civilization isn't any worse by being third or fourth oldest civilization on earth.

So just accept the facts.
 
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Sumer and Babylon too in the fertile crescent civilization, so it could be either..

IVC predates them all by thousands of years. Speak to any Islamic scholar and at max they will give you 10k years from Adam (AS) to present day humanity. There is no other civilization which fits the bill then Indus which qualify as the nation of Noah. The fact that all of it despite being three times bigger and powerful then Babylon and Egypt combined, to be erased like that and be ten foot underground, erased from human memory and only to be discovered by mere accident, are these not ample proofs? Do you know what Mohenjodaro means?
 
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Dude, I am not sure if you are a full-blooded Tunisian or not, but North Africans and Saudi Arabians look very much alike overall. At least this is the case with nearby Egyptians and Libyans so I doubt that it is any different when it comes to Tunisians. I can tell you for a fact that the Tunisian diaspora in the GCC would be very difficult to pick apart had most of you guys not warn Western clothing.



All of those guys could fit into KSA and none would look at them as foreigners.

Go watch some ISIS videos and detect the Arabic dialects. You would be unable to pick people apart or guess their identity unless through accent. I am mentioning ISIS because they wear the same clothing, mostly all have beards and long hair.

And no, please don't post a photo of the Saudi Arabian football team as the vast, vast majority of our football players are Afro-Arabs which are also found in North Africa, even more so for logical reasons (African continent and geographic proximity to Sub-Saharan Africa).

I understand your pov, but tunisians of the coast are very very different from the inner country. just see our president or just come to sfax/sousse/tunis nabeul or anyother coastal city and you'll see. and that is only tunisia, see the algerians, you'll think they are europeans. and libyans are mostly from sub saharans ppl
 
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