The JF-17 is a truly remarkable plane

[Donatello]

I think the scenario you have outlined is too simplistic and narrowly-focused. What you say can be true in a very limited scenario but the real world is much more complex and one hasn't even factored in EW, Jammers, passive detection systems, availability of Airborne surveillance systems, data linking with other assets etc etc. The advent of BVR is a game changer to some extent but that doesn't mean the days of WVR dogfights are over for good- far from it. The last time an AF thought that they ended up building a plane without a canon and being torn up over the skies of Vietnam!

All of which even PAF has. So your X vs Y BS needs to stop now.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Because MKI and F-35 are two different league planes. But you are too dumb to realize that.




View attachment 56574

--
simple terms
for
IAF .. LCA is not priority its bonus well above rafael...
for
PAF .. JF 17 its necesary ..

both have diffrent .. resoruce.. option.. strategy

 

[danger007]

Because MKI and F-35 are two different league planes. But you are too dumb to realize that.




View attachment 56574

another dumb who don't get my point... both mki and jft come into different class...

 

[foxbat]

Who told you JF-17 is manufacturing JV b/w PAF and AVIC? JF-17 Project director or Chinese FC-1 project director ?

LOL on SU-30 manufacturing JV where 10,000 parts are made in India out 30,000 that is not even 50 percent, things still come in knockdown kits and you guys just assemble them and all the rivets, basic manufacturing material is still outsourced from Russia directly , SU-30 has to go to Russia STILL for maintenance. (MARCH 2014), Were India involved in SU-30 from inception ?,,,, AND CAN INDIA SELL SU-30 on it's own ?


Now compare all this manufacturing JV of SU-30 with JF-17 project. Can PAF sell JF-17 on it's own, YES, Does JF-17 get serviced and maintained wholly instead of sending it to china as well as all the spares are built locally? YES.

It's not the first time we are having debate with YOU on this particular subject. I vividly recalled you were shown JF-17 project director interview where he explained in detail about Pakistan participation in JF-17 from it's inception

You and @Alfa-Fighter are both cut from same cloth. Both post with habitual and repeated lies despite knowing the original facts from previous debates

I dont know how people make it to think tank without having the patience or comprehension ability to even understand the post they are responding to

 

[Bratva]

I dont know how people make it to think tank without having the patience or comprehension ability to even understand the post they are responding to

So when you can't counter anything in post, go on verbal diarrhea about think tanks. Great. As expected

 

[Dazzler]

So when you can't counter anything in post, go on verbal diarrhea about think tanks. Great. As expected

isnt that a preferred habit of theirs?

 

[Superboy]

Are you getting Rafale or F-35? For the present and foreseeable future, if the J-31 has to counter others fighters, those are going to be the SU-MKIs, MIG-29s and ultimately Rafale -since Pak-fa's induction is farther in time -.
It will face potentially the F-35 in other parts of the world not in the context of Pakistan vs I

I thought J-31 is cancelled?

 

[The SC]

I thought J-31 is cancelled?

Intensive flight-tests for China's J-31 fighter; may challenge US for market share
(People's Daily Online) 09:48, August 29, 2013

Since August China's fourth-generation stealth fighter, the J-31 "Falcon Hawk", has carried out more than three sets of trial flights at a rapidly increasing frequency. America's fourth-generation equivalent has achieved huge market penetration, and analysts believe that the excellent performance of the J-31 will make it a strong competitor in this market.

J-31 performance compares favorably with F-35

Although similar to the fourth-generation stealth fighter, the J-31's overall aerodynamic design and stealth appearance is not so identical with J-20, which has a higher degree of exposure. Military enthusiasts prefer to compare the relation of J-31 and J-20 with that of the U.S. Air Force F-22 and F-35. J-31 and F-35 use the same DSI inlet (non-boundary layer separated lane supersonic inlet) design, the difference is, F-35 uses a single engine to provide power, but J-31 is designed with double engines. In addition, some models of F-35 support the short distance/vertical landing; J-31 cannot do this for the time being.

Earlier reports indicate that the J-31 is equipped with twin Russian RD-93 engines - news that has been confirmed by Russia's MiG Aircraft Corporation. The "Fierce Dragon" light fighter developed jointly by China and Pakistan is also equipped with this model of engine. Judged against the specifications of fourth-generation aircraft, the RD-93 engine seems somewhat old, but during prototype testing the use of a stable engine with mature technology is the safest approach. Sources point out that once in service, the J-31 will hopefully carry our self-developed WS-13 engine, which has significantly improved performance in comparison with the RD-93.

China's Air Force test pilot expert Xu Yongling points out that the J-31's stealth aerodynamic design, stealth engine design and stealth coating design have all reached internationally advanced standards in stealth technology. He also pointed out that the J-31 possesses both stealth capability and a considerable payload level. In addition, Xu Yongling says that China has its own considerations in the development of fourth-generation aircraft, taking account not only of the need for stealth, but also of its performance in air-to-ground and air-to-air combat, and the relevant weapons requirements. This means that in payload, the J-31 will prevail over the F-35.

Domestic fourth-generation aircraft target the export market

A landmark in international military aviation history, the fourth-generation stealth aircraft will not only have a great impact on combat strategy, but also exercise a tremendous influence on geopolitics, especially on international relations and the geo-strategic situation in the Asia-Pacific region. The stealth fighter has gone beyond a simple weapons platform; its presence is now an indication of the balances and the strategic considerations at play among different countries. It could be said that the high-tech weapon systems represented by stealth fighters are becoming a new variable in the Sino-US strategic game.

Experts predict that the J-31 will make rapid inroads in the international market in the future, and will undoubtedly steal the limelight from the F-35. China's fourth-generation aircraft will become a new option for those countries which have not yet made the decision to purchase the F-35. In particular for those countries which are excluded from access to U.S. arms exports, China's fourth generation aircraft will certainly be attractive. The J-31, with its main target as the export market, represents a serious threat to U.S. arms manufacturers.

Intensive flight-tests for China's J-31 fighter; may challenge US for market share - People's Daily Online

New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests

• By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer
• Posted 05.22.2014 at 10:39 am

0
The J-31 continues flight testing at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation research facility in northern China. As China's second fifth generation fighter, the J-31 makes China the second nation in the world, after the United States, to have flown two fifth generation fighters. With a length of about 17 meters and an 11.5m wingspan, the J-31 is about the size of the F-35 Lightning II and smaller than the F-22, J-20 and PAK-FA. A large model of the J-31, designated as "F-60", appeared at the Zhuhai 2012 Airshow, indicating a Chinese willingness to export the J-31 as a international competitor to the F-35. Once it enters service, the J-31 is likely to serve alongside less numerous J-20s as part of a "high/low" combination, similar to the F-35/F-22 mix in the US Air Force. The J-31 is also likely to serve aboard future Chinese aircraft carriers, greatly enhancing their capabilities. Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer for the J-31, as Islamabad hopes to counter the Indian purchase of Russian FGFA stealth fighters.

J-31 Prototype Flies Again
The first J-31 prototype, number "31001", performs another flight test. Its 5th generation features include internal weapons bay, stealthy fuselage and an AESA radar.
http://club.mil.news.sina.cn
The J-31 "Gyrfalcon" stealth fighter reportedly uses technology from the J-19, Shenyang's failed bid for the Chinese heavy 5th generation fighter (which the Chengdu J-20 won). The J-31 has conducted at least six test flights in Shenyang since fall 2012 and a second prototype is under assembly. Compared to censorship of some J-20 photos, there is less secrecy about the J-31's development.

To save weight, the J-31 uses an immense number of of 3D laser printed components, including titanium wing spars. Compared to the F-35, the J-31 uses two smaller Russian RD-33 engines instead of a larger engine like the AL-31 or WS-10. This gives the J-31 a flatter fuselage than the F-35; which suggests a more pronounced air superiority focus for the J-31, since a flatter fuselage results in a smaller weapons bay but improves fuel efficiency and speed by decreasing drag. It is likely that the J-31 could carry larger missiles like the YJ-12 anti-ship missile under its wings, but like with the F-35, at the cost of stealth. Vladimir Barkovsky, chief of the Russian MiG aircraft design bureau, has praised the J-31 as a "well done indigenous design" and "good machine" resulting from China's ambitious aviation industry.

F-60 Display at Zhuhai 2012
A large display model of the J-31, under its export designation "F-60", is exhibited at the Zhuhai 2012 Air Show. Shenyang Aviation Corporation's display of the F-60 suggests Chinese ambition to sell a 5th generation competitor to the F-35 for stealth fighter exports.
mil.sohu.com
New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests | Popular Science

Look at the dates highlighted in red and read the articles, this should answer you question.
This one is for export "only", just like the JF-17, it will go to Pakistan first.

 

[Luftwaffe]

@SC apart from China and Pakistan who else is going to buy J-31 the entire M.E is into US pocket and even if M.E is attracted US would be there to test it out the second day it is delivered...nothing should be sold to Egyptians they switch sides, doing business with Algerian AF is not good russia's access to product. Poor Nations can't even afford JF-17 Thunder or in limited numbers. In Latin America maybe Venezuela...Argentinians can't be trusted israelis influence and access.

In My opinion it is hard for China to market certain products.

 

[Zarvan]

@SC apart from China and Pakistan who else is going to buy J-31 the entire M.E is into US pocket and even if M.E is attracted US would be there to test it out the second day it is delivered...nothing should be sold to Egyptians they switch sides, doing business with Algerian AF is not good russia's access to product. Poor Nations can't even afford JF-17 Thunder or in limited numbers. In Latin America maybe Venezuela...Argentinians can't be trusted israelis influence and access.

In My opinion it is hard for China to market certain products.

5th Generation jets from China will find lot off market

 

[The SC]

@SC apart from China and Pakistan who else is going to buy J-31 the entire M.E is into US pocket and even if M.E is attracted US would be there to test it out the second day it is delivered...nothing should be sold to Egyptians they switch sides, doing business with Algerian AF is not good russia's access to product. Poor Nations can't even afford JF-17 Thunder or in limited numbers. In Latin America maybe Venezuela...Argentinians can't be trusted israelis influence and access.

In My opinion it is hard for China to market certain products.

That is true, the other truth is that todays fighter planes that are on the market are mostly custom tailored to the needs of other nations. Take the example of German 214 submarines, or the MESMA French AIP technology, they can be sold but sealed and delivered even if there is TOT for the rest of the Submarine components. Or take the F-16 for example, the ones on the market and the American air-force ones aren't the same either. this goes for all major systems, like warships, warplanes, air-defense systems or submarines.
China won't sell the J-31 as it is, there is a rather bigger version for export. And even for these versions there are many things to add, change and manipulate in the event of espionage or the systems being debunked by enemies.
I think Pakistan alone will get the real version custom made for its needs, just like the JF-17 deal. While there will be a basic - fifth generation nonetheless - version for export with on demand additional components or custom made.
It is a bit of a dilemma for everyone else involved in advanced systems export. But they all have found a way, and China will too.
Apart from NATO countries, not many countries can afford the F-35, so the potential market is quite huge, and China can pick the ones it can sell to and avoid the ones who pose the treaths you have mentionned, just like the French with their avionics for the JF-17, for instance.

 

[ejaz007]

--
read indias role in su30mki devleopme more you will change your pov
--
how many countirs you exported
name one

Your clock is stuck at one point. We shall one day sale JF-17 too. Then I am sure you shall come up with an excuse that you exported it to a third country and not USA hence the plane is not capable.

You do not own SU-30 or are development partner in it. A specific model SU-30 MKI was developed for IAF and India might have given some input regarding that specific model but not the SU-30 project.

basically 18 as of now, right ? that's too less...that is in case of a war these f16s would likely to be shielded from IAF rather than spearhead an attack. any tangle with the flanker or the m2k in its new avatar, the picture isn't rosy my friend.

PAF is not used to shielding or protecting her assets. PAF uses her assets where ever and whenever they are needed. In modern day warfare it is very hard to shield or protect assets.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Your clock is stuck at one point. We shall one day sale JF-17 too. Then I am sure you shall come up with an excuse that you exported it to a third country and not USA hence the plane is not capable.

You do not own SU-30 or are development partner in it. A specific model SU-30 MKI was developed for IAF and India might have given some input regarding that specific model but not the SU-30 project.



PAF is not used to shielding or protecting her assets. PAF uses her assets where ever and whenever they are needed. In modern day warfare it is very hard to shield or protect assets.

--
with due respect .. support your clalim HUD video with proof..
and come when you able to sale JF-17 too.. till theory stands that JF 17 not owned by pak ...not fully atleast..
if nothing to provide than proof..
then better dont talk on that
Thanks ...

 

[Luftwaffe]

China won't sell the J-31 as it is, there is a rather bigger version for export. And even for these versions there are many things to add, change and manipulate in the event of espionage or the systems being debunked by enemies.
I think Pakistan alone will get the real version custom made for its needs, just like the JF-17 deal. While there will be a basic - fifth generation nonetheless - version for export with on demand additional components or custom made.
It is a bit of a dilemma for everyone else involved in advanced systems export. But they all have found a way, and China will too.
Apart from NATO countries, not many countries can afford the F-35, so the potential market is quite huge, and China can pick the ones it can sell to and avoid the ones who pose the treaths you have mentionned, just like the French with their avionics for the JF-17, for instance.

China is no longer the Country we knew nor is their dealing conventional anymore when it comes to Pak. In order to get a better product opinion is Pakistan will have to Invest in the Program; may it be sleeping partner.

As for the rest I still think M.E would be offered F-35 in time and they can afford it if they can afford 80-100m a pop planes now a days they shall in the future as F-35 price would eventually come down to 80-100m for the best technologies it includes. I think first China should focus on better reliable technologies before gearing for exports in the future.

 

[Bossman]

---
Yes independent review of HUD footage proves a lot

im asking this...proof
-
ask your diplomt how diffuclt is life after kargill...
need more ?
if you hit us uranimum will process same hit with plutonium.....
(just example dont go nulcear .. as always...)
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1450/MR1450.ch2.pdf
The surprise and alienation felt by members of the Pakistani elite are
confirmed by a reading of Pakistan’s English-language press, which
strongly suggests that at the time of the conflict, editorialists and
other opinion shapers did not know that the incursions around
Kargil were
not
a mujahideen operation. The surprise evinced in
such editorials seems to stem from the writers’ beliefs that Kargil was
not Pakistan’s doing and that Islamabad therefore did not deserve
the opprobrium it received.
In the aftermath of the G-8 communiqué,
3
which Pakistanis read as
laying the blame squarely on Pakistan, several articles spoke out
against what was perceived as an unreasonable and unfair interpre-
tation of events by the international community.
4
One article
poignantly narrates Pakistan’s sense of loss, isolation, and surprise:
We have come a long way indeed from the time when the world lis-
tened to our entreaties on Kashmir with a certain amount of re-
spect. We have come a long way from the time that the OIC
[Organization of Islamic Countries] passed a unanimous resolution
on allowing the Kashmiris the right of self-determination. We have
come a long way indeed from the time that our protector and giver
of all, Amreeka Bahadur, was getting ready to mediate between
India and Pakistan. . . .Whatever happened to us? Why do we stand
at the very edge of the diplomatic precipice today?
5
To illuminate Pakistan’s current standing in the comity of nations,
the author of this article critically examined some of Pakistan’s more
alienating policies, such as its ongoing support for the Taliban.

--
T]he United States has proved to be a fair-weather friend. . . .In-
stead of showing greater understanding of Pakistan’s point of view
and impressing upon India the need to discuss the Kashmir prob-
lem . . ., the US is telling Pakistan to effect a withdrawal of the
Mujahideen (or the infiltrators, as the US prefers to call them) from
Kargil. China does not suffer from the same attitude and its under-
standing of the Pakistani position on all important matters of na-
tional security has always been fair and sympathetic.
6
While such writers persisted optimistically in the days immediately
preceding Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s visit to China,
others sought to dampen any expectation that China would enthusi-
astically support Pakistan.
7
These articles typically reaffirmed the
general contours of Sino-Pakistan relations while vitiating any expec-
tation that China would be totally forthcoming in assistance. A
common strategy employed was to contextualize China’s expected
stance on Kargil vis-à-vis China’s other pressing objectives (e.g., eco-
nomic, social, and military development).
8
Of course, the eventual position taken by China did not live up to any
of Pakistan’s highest expectations. In the days and weeks after the
disappointing visits to China by Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz and then
Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, there was palpable shock at China’s
position and vexation with the Pakistani Foreign Office’s efforts to
spin these visits as fruitful. Abbas Rashid’s opinion piece typifies this
sentiment:
Even China seems to have forsaken its traditional subtlety to get
across the message as plainly as possible that it did not support
Pakistan’s position. . . .Sartaj Aziz dashed off to Beijing and was re-
portedly told by Li Peng . . . that ‘. . . Pakistan should remain cool-
headed and exercise self-control and solve conflicts through peace-
ful means and avoid worsening the situation.’. . .Certainly, this is

----

I thinking you are babbling. We are discussing performannce of IAF vs PAF in during Kargil.and the bottom line is that despite limitations PAF did not loose any aircraft while IAF lost three. It kept IAF from crossing the border. So i have proven you wrong, with facts.Making a big deal, especially giving medals, for painting PAF aircrafts is BS and proves nothing as PAF did the same and was able to prove it to the world, unlike India. We are not discussing the politics of Kargil. I will be happy to do so in a separate thread with the same results. Also most Pakistan dont worry about what the world thinks about it. We don't accept the current global balance of power dominated by the west. We will never get a good deal in terms of world opinion especially from the west. The way the things are evolving even China will not be our friend in the long term. But the good news is that by then India would by then have collapsed due to the same dynamics.