The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[Walling Naga]

Countdown to india crashing first Raphael is on

All bets are being taken

The Raphael is a dangerous aircraft but like the O.P i have a feeling the regret for india will be enormous

. For heaven sake.. Don't feel regret for India or Rafale, look at your Airforce and pity them.. We have our own problems besides feeling regrets for each other Country's new Aircrafts.

 

[ravi gupta]

Let me say it like this.
Why Does the COWARD IAF did not engaged PAF head on? And Bombed the air bases inorder to provoke them to fight?
Last time I checked, there were two aircrafts (Mig21-Mig27) which crossed the border with hostile motives.
Now their pieces are dispersed in various PAF museums.
Rest, a lot of stories were cooked by pilots to claim those ''fantasy BVR locks'' which considering IAF past false claims are nothing but heap of trash.



Name ONE pilot plz.............
Other wise don't waste my time.
Don't jump here and there hiding your face behind propaganda articles which are not even topic of this discussion.

Since you are insisting again and again,its Ajay Ahuja had down your atlantique after kagril.

 

[Raider 21]

Since you are insisting again and again,its Ajay Ahuja had down your atlantique after kagril.

Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja died after ejecting from his MiG-21 tail # : C-1539 that was hit by a SAM. He died on 27th May 1999 whereas the PN Dassault Atlantique was shot by another IAF figher pilot, Squadron Leader P.K. Bundela, and that occurred on 10th August 1999.

 

[Tipu7]

Since you are insisting again and again,its Ajay Ahuja had down your atlantique after kagril.

I knew a random moron will come up with this example.
Re read what I asked,
name ONE FIGHTER JET shot down by IAF in past 3.5 decades?

atlantique is fighter jet?

 

[Stag112]

Funny thing is this feel good article implies rafale is supposed to replace might 21s...

Then claims it is an opinion....

So PDF professionals are entitled to their facts too?????

 

[zebra7]

'Nuclear Bomb' lover spotted.

In what parallel universe are 2 Su30s = 1 F16?

Go on, and explain in detail, and give the real equation sir.

By Abuzar Ilyas

India and France finally inked the Rafale deal of more than 8 billion dollars. French Dassault Aviation will provide 36 Rafale MMRCAs to Indian Air Force. The first aircraft will be delivered after 3 years and all 36 systems will be delivered within a time of 3 years after it. Rafale is no doubt a proven 4.5th generation aircraft which will enhance the capabilities of Indian Air Force but in my humble opinion, the delivery time is so late that it will not create much effect against Pakistan. Our own JF-17 Thunder will introduce its Block 3 within a year or two and its specifications will be enough to counter any 4.5th Generation aircraft.



As expected, JF-17 Thunder Block 3 will be upgraded to an AESA radar with additional IRST features. Its payload and range will also be enhanced due to which it will offer a deterrent against Rafales in Indian colours. Moreover, Thunder will be a more mature platform after 6 years as Rafale will be in a process of integration. Pakistan should invest more into JF-17 Thunder project as it is the destiny of PAF. It can fulfill our defense needs till year 2050. Thunder will be evolved into a much better platform in the coming years as it will be matured.


Current Pakistani Air Force is having almost 80 F-16s in its inventory and these F-16s serves as our mainline fighter. Nearly 100 JF-17s already joined PAF in different squadrons and it will ultimately achieve the desired number of 250 very soon insha’Allah. These 2 aircrafts are categorized in 4th generation fighters due to which their specifications serves the needs of modern times. Apart from these 2 different platforms, PAF also has 3rd generation old Mirages and F-7s which are near to retirement and they will be replaced by upcoming batches of JF-17 Thunder.



My focus is on the comparison of JF-17 Thunder with the future inductions of our adversary. Indians planned to acquire 136 Rafales from France but ended up signing a deal for the purchase of mere 36 systems. First Rafale will arrive India in 2019 and last one from this deal will be delivered after the 3 years of first deliveries if everything goes well for both countries. I am comparing a 4th generation lightweight fighter aircraft of PAF with a 4.5th generation medium-weight fighter aircraft of Indian Air Force but with a reason. The block 3 of JF-17 will have some advance features as discussed above. It will be able to challenge any modern 4.5th generation aircraft and still our Block-52+ and Thunder Block-II are potent to bring down 4.5th generation jets because they are in the hands of PAF professionals. Our Air Force already proved their mettle in international exercises by beating advanced EF-2000s of different Air Forces with their earlier generation F-16s. Technology surely matters but the man behind gun also matters and matters most.


Pakistan formally started JF-17 Thunder project in 1999 with 50:50 shares of both China and Pakistan. The aircraft flew within a record time and took its maiden flight in 2003. Pakistan Air Force is reaping the fruits of the seeds which they planted about 18 years ago. JF-17 Thunder is serving as a major force multiplier for all tri-services of Pakistan. Its 100 units which are produced till now are a strong deterrent against costly aircrafts of our enemy which it purchased in billions of dollars where our homegrown jet is in our budget and we have total control over it. It is evolving and will have the capacity to adjust according to the changing threat spectrum. Its future blocks will be able to protect Pakistani skies against all kinds of medium and heavy-weight 4th, 4.5th and 5th generation jets.



The project of Aviation City in Kamra by Pakistan Air Force is another initiative. It will give its fruits after 15-20 years as Chief of Air Staff himself gave some hints in multiple interviews. Aviation City is going to train the local Human Resource for future projects of Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan will start 5th Generation Aircraft project and I can also predict another completely new platform which PAF will introduce in future, probably after 15-20 years. Threats will evolve with the passage of time and so will our projects. Our adversary will come with new challenges and with the success of China Pakistan Economic Corridor, we will have adversaries from regional to global level so the technological requirements will also increase due to which such projects will show their importance.


Pakistan Air Force’s professionalism, dedication and history are clear examples of what success is. I am very hopeful for our guys in the sky that they will never disappoint us. PAF is currently the sole air force in the world to manufacture its own aircrafts. It is going out of the traditional way to serve the nation and this is why I am extra optimistic about them. The future belongs to PAF as the Air Chief himself has shown resolve time and again that ‘we will make Pakistan Air Force, the number one Air Force in the world’.

https://voemag.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/indian-rafale-deal-and-future-of-paf/

LOL, who is the author of this article. We certainly needed professional author related to defence.

 

[nomi007]

best option is to get thunder upto mark with western avionics and possible foreign BVRs, this could be resourced from italy/europe
second option is to get a mix of older and new f-16s and update them with newer AESA configuration & if possible
invest in 5th gen platefrom

we need to speed up work on 5th gen
even Chinese will not give us J-20 due to highly sophisticated technology and also very costly
so need to find alternative option

 

[khalid mughal]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

I haven't found any exceptionally in Rafael it's only they will METOUR along with it

 

[cerberus]

I haven't found any exceptionally in Rafael it's only they will METOUR along with it

We talking F3R standard Rafale which latest by all 4.5++

 

[SBD-3]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

Its not only about the numbers but about the capabilities. US doesn't have much of F-22s but the capabilities that those platforms possess outmatch any other fleet. Mig-29s/Mig-21s are no way as capable as Rafeales are. The important thing is that now sooner of later, IAF will have the cutting edge platform in their hands.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

Expensive. yes might be. You shouldn't expect a technologically advanced aircraft to have the costs of Mig-21. This is the most stupid thing to assume. And furthermore, any new platform needs new infrastructure so yes costs are higher but necessary for having advanced and added capabilities.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

Like what?

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

TEJAS is a different class. Its LCA, not MMCRA. Rafales will replace the Mig-29s. LCA will be more centered at Migs and Jaguars.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

Probably a saner Choice. Indians have always been dismal at "Make in India" but would that be a sane thing to keep delaying the procurement if this dream is not going to be realized?

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

Eurofighter needs money, India ditching Typhoon wouldn't help BAE falling in love with PAF for sure, unless PAF has any plans for procuring Typhoon. But Typhoon is more apt in A2A than being a true multi-role fighter.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

I don't think so. All these fighters were first tested by IAF and then only those would have been selected which would have met the minimum requirements. Rafale isn't by any mean an average fighter. Its Young, its potent and it certainly had proven itself in new war theaters

Rafales dropped their first weapons against Libyan targets on 21 March, with these early strikes having been launched from Saint-Dizier air base on the French mainland. Two days later, a major raid also involving navy Rafale Ms flying from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle attacked a Libyan air force base 250km (135nm) inland, and saw France's debut combat use of MBDA's Scalp-EG cruise missile. Identical to the Storm Shadow weapons employed by UK's Royal Air Force Panavia Tornado GR4 strike aircraft earlier in the conflict, they were used to take out infrastructure targets during the French mission.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/frances-rafale-fighter-proves-its-omnirole-skills-357687/

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Bribes are always a part of business. Even in Pakistan many procurements have been marred by bribes (Agosta for example). So its a business as usual in most of the defence procurement. Militarymen and Politicians are like Doctors which the Medical Reps (Defence Companies) have to bribe to make a sell.

Rather than downplaying the procurement like you did I hope the people at our AHQ not as stupid to undermine a good platform landing in our neighborhood.

 

[SBD-3]

Rafales refuling. 4PGBs, one lasing pod, three tanks. Quite some muscle for LR precision strike.Beautiful bird!

 

[Ultima Thule]

Rafales refuling. 4PGBs, one lasing pod, three tanks. Quite some muscle for LR precision strike.Beautiful bird!
View attachment 338346

one of my favorite bird

 

[Basel]

Our Jf-17's will be blasted out of the sky by these Rafale's, We got any plans to get a GOOD fighter jet?

Wait for the block-3, PAF want it to be most advance fighter of PAF, it may get systems based on J-20, which will allow it to be most capable fighter to face any threat over Pakistani skies and battlefields and better chances of survival over Indian air space.

Then enlighten me Sir. With due respect, PL-15 would be the one which will be declared as the answer of the Meteors, because for firing the BVR you need the plane, radars and other electronics, and you cannot use F-16s for firing any other BVRs, what is left is the CAC/PAC's FC-1/JF-17, which have Chinese Radar, Chinese pylon and ejectors, so naturally the BVR would be the Chinese. Second with the patrioism as a pakistani you would not see various things, that's why I don't mentioned few things about the Chinese weapons you boasts. So lets give it a try then. Look at the Chinese thinking, they are trying to get the market share in the global market export, and creating a wide array of choices, but still they follow the chinese thinking. They copied the concepts, and try to take advantage by showing and creating a cheaper/non western choise of the popular weapon. Take e.g Brahmos, they are trying to now develop CX-1, J-31 meant for export, atleast it look like F-31 externally, PL-15 trying to make the chinese meteors. But they are inferior to those which they are trying to prove that its the Chinese alternative with advantage and Cheaper cost.

PL-15 is Chinese equivalent of AIM-120D not meteor, PL-21 is Chinese equivalent of Meteor.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Wait for the block-3, PAF want it to be most advance fighter of PAF, it may get systems based on J-20, which will allow it to be most capable fighter to face any threat over Pakistani skies and battlefields and better chances of survival over Indian air space.



PL-15 is Chinese equivalent of AIM-120D not meteor, PL-21 is Chinese equivalent of Meteor.

Can Pakistan produce it's own Air to Air missiles?

 

[Basel]

Can Pakistan produce it's own Air to Air missiles?

Yes, but due to other priorities it was shelved in mush time, also no need to start new project when you can get good weapon via JV economically.