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The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

So nothing concrete. I was reading the tweets of one journalist which specifically said there is no follow on purchase clause in the agreement. Which means If India chooses to purchase further Rafael in future, it will have to pay a higher cost

Thats true, there is no follow on agreement that could give them 18 more at the same price. If there was, they would have taken it immediately. The whole dispute was on two things afterall, tech transfer and price.

Kids are making things up as usual.
 
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2 crossed, 2 shot down.
Every air craft suffer from malfunction when it receive Manpad in its ***.
No IAF pilot have scored any Combat Jet kill since 1971.
I used to think IAF pilots have now similar capabilities as PAF pilots, but recent Iron Fist exercise proved me wrong.
Chill ....................

IMHO, training regimes are different and that makes the difference. There's another factor, which aggravates only when they cross into the Pak side...
 
Thats true, there is no follow on agreement that could give them 18 more at the same price. If there was, they would have taken it immediately. The whole dispute was on two things afterall, tech transfer and price.

Kids are making things up as usual.

http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

It means if 18 are ordered after 3 yrs the inflation rate will max be 3.5% and if inflation is 2% in europe after 3 yrs then 2% inflation clause will be applied to optional 18 Rafales


So nothing concrete. I was reading the tweets of one journalist which specifically said there is no follow on purchase clause in the agreement. Which means If India chooses to purchase further Rafael in future, it will have to pay a higher cost

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.
 
http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

It means if 18 are ordered after 3 yrs the inflation rate will max be 3.5% and if inflation is 2% in europe after 3 yrs then 2% inflation clause will be applied to optional 18 Rafales




Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

Adding inflation to an already inflated price, the way to do good business french style.
 
Adding inflation to an already inflated price, the way to do good business french style.

i replied to you in context of you saying no follow up clause has been added. this deal is costly or fairly priced is for Indian govt to see
 
Without any doubt Rafale will provide an Iron Strong Punching capability to IAF. Now its with PAF that how they respond to it. Time is short and running out at fast pace.

PAF hasn't put the Pak folks down so far including the recent fiasco. I hope it'll remain so with so many exciting options coming up..
 
I find it laughable Pakistanis are celebrating Rafale deal signing.

1)India order deep upgrades to it's rafales. This not only increased unit cost but capability as well like cross platform weapon systems and Israeli Indian electronic systems.

2)India has a floating requirement for 90 MMRCA excluding this contract. Since only a suicidal notion will make for another aircraft, more may be on the way.

3)To this extent India is negotiating another deal with France over the Rafale for local production. Since unit cost will be higher in India than France due to lack of infrastructure, the first deal will cover up this by setting up maintenance, training and even manufacturing hub with local private consortium.

4)India by 2020 will thus have around 60 Mirages, 272+ Su 30 MKI with some having gone through MLU in Super Sukhoi programme bringing them on par with Su 35S, 69 mig 29 UPG, dozens of jaguars and Mig 27 and last but not the least 16 odd Tejas Mk I. This is excluding Pak Fa and Rafale.

5)Meanwhile Pakistan has some old F 16s and a third rate 4th Generation Fighter called JF 17.

To put it plainly, I see you are going mad with horror and thus find laughter a plausible response to your conundrum.

:coffee:
 
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So the Pakistanis think this is a mistake

YEAH who are they kidding

its a stunning addition

one single RAFALE is equal to two F16/52
one single RAFALE is equal to three Thunders
one single RAFALE is equal to SIX F7PG /mirage5
 
View attachment 338399


So the Pakistanis think this is a mistake

YEAH who are they kidding

its a stunning addition

one single RAFALE is equal to two F16/52
one single RAFALE is equal to three Thunders
one single RAFALE is equal to SIX F7PG /mirage5

Great post sir! I'm really impressed by your deep and completely thought out analysis. I usually enjoy your posts on threads and issues which involve Pakistan and India since you seem to possess alot of insider information .... and I would just like to congratulate you because you've shown us the light once again... us inferior Pakistanis that is. How in the blue hell can we.... the Pakistanis .... even think to match the great IAF ...

It's just like you said sir, One rafale equals 2 blk-52's, 3 thunders and 6 PG/Roses. I suppose by extension that would mean that

-1 rafale equals 2 Fulcrums/M2K's

-1 rafale equals 3 tejas fighters and
- 1 rafale equals 6 Bisons / Mig-27s .... right sir ?

Going by these numbers you don't need to raise any extra squadrons whatsoever ... after all, your most urgent replacements ... include the 120+ Bisons + 80+Mig-27's right? ... and since one rafale equals 6 Bisons and 6 mig -27's that means that Rafale can replace ... over 210 jets easily right ??

In other words you can literally replace 11-12 standing squadrons of Mig-21's and Mig-27's by 2 Rafale squadrons inside three years!! ... Ofcourse that would mean that your 10 squadrons short ... but who cares about such little details ... after all ... 1 rafale is indeed equal to 6 Mig-21's/mig-27's ...right sir?


Dear sir! I say this out of respect that the likes of me and others are infact a little jealous of your Da vinci like genius... you already had these numbers figured out ... The likes of us mere forms of existence can only hope and pray that you are seriously hired by the IAF in a consultancy position cuz talent and genius like yours ... shouldn't go to waste ...

giphy.gif
 
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IMHO, training regimes are different and that makes the difference. There's another factor, which aggravates only when they cross into the Pak side...

you have no documented proof that IAF has inferior training regimen to the PAF

Great post sir! I'm really impressed by your deep and completely thought out analysis. I usually enjoy your posts on threads and issues which involve Pakistan and India since you seem to possess alot of insider information .... and I would just like to congratulate you because you've shown us the light once again... us inferior Pakistanis that is. How in the blue hell can we.... the Pakistanis .... even think to match the great IAF ...

It's just like you said sir, One rafale equals 2 blk-52's, 3 thunders and 6 PG/Roses. I suppose by extension that would mean that

-1 rafale equals 2 Fulcrums/M2K's

-1 rafale equals 3 tejas fighters and
- 1 rafale equals 6 Bisons / Mig-27s .... right sir ?

Going by these numbers you don't need to raise any extra squadrons whatsoever ... after all, your most urgent replacements ... include the 120+ Bisons + 80+Mig-27's right? ... and since one rafale equals 6 Bisons and 6 mig -27's that means that Rafale can replace ... over 210 jets easily right ??

In other words you can literally replace 11-12 standing squadrons of Mig-21's and Mig-27's by 2 Rafale squadrons inside three years!! ... Ofcourse that would mean that your 10 squadrons short ... but who cares about such little details ... after all ... 1 rafale is indeed equal to 6 Mig-21's/mig-27's ...right sir?


Dear sir! I say this out of respect that the likes of me and others are infact a little jealous of your Da vinci like genius... you already had these numbers figured out ... The likes of us mere forms of existence can only hope and pray that you are seriously hired by the IAF in a consultancy position cuz talent and genius like yours ... shouldn't go to waste ...

the number of combat aircraft in air force fleet around the world is decreasing. why would the iaf be immune ??
 
Great post sir! I'm really impressed by your deep and completely thought out analysis. I usually enjoy your posts on threads and issues which involve Pakistan and India since you seem to possess alot of insider information .... and I would just like to congratulate you because you've shown us the light once again... us inferior Pakistanis that is. How in the blue hell can we.... the Pakistanis .... even think to match the great IAF ...

It's just like you said sir, One rafale equals 2 blk-52's, 3 thunders and 6 PG/Roses. I suppose by extension that would mean that

-1 rafale equals 2 Fulcrums/M2K's

-1 rafale equals 3 tejas fighters and
- 1 rafale equals 6 Bisons / Mig-27s .... right sir ?

Going by these numbers you don't need to raise any extra squadrons whatsoever ... after all, your most urgent replacements ... include the 120+ Bisons + 80+Mig-27's right? ... and since one rafale equals 6 Bisons and 6 mig -27's that means that Rafale can replace ... over 210 jets easily right ??

In other words you can literally replace 11-12 standing squadrons of Mig-21's and Mig-27's by 2 Rafale squadrons inside three years!! ... Ofcourse that would mean that your 10 squadrons short ... but who cares about such little details ... after all ... 1 rafale is indeed equal to 6 Mig-21's/mig-27's ...right sir?


Dear sir! I say this out of respect that the likes of me and others are infact a little jealous of your Da vinci like genius... you already had these numbers figured out ... The likes of us mere forms of existence can only hope and pray that you are seriously hired by the IAF in a consultancy position cuz talent and genius like yours ... shouldn't go to waste ...

giphy.gif

Hi,

There was nothing wrong with @centurian2016 's post---.

He is right on target with the numbers---. And yes---2sqdrn's of Rafales will annihilate 10 sqdrn's of Mig21 Bis---.

What it does not mean is that 10sqdrn's of the mig21's will be flying at the same time against 2 sqdrn's in real time----.

You need to take the sarcasm out of your post and try to learn to understand the gravity of the situation.

Taking a vacation in LA.

You want to go for lunch----or dinner.
 
Grapes growing on a tree. Also as a kid I always wondered why a fox would want to eat grapes.

It was an indian fox (MODI) :rofl: trying to achieve the impossible as usual. Indians probably thought they were shopping for planes from a londa market :omghaha:. Usually when a person haggles they leave with a bargain but in indian case they decided to haggle for less by paying more :lol:.
 
If you seriously believe this to be true then Pakistan needs to drop all talk of su35, and just get more falcons

Your intimating that a paf if16 s equal to 2 su30mki

The falcons radar ew suites engines pay load range and angles of attack are inferior to a twin engined flanker.

The main issue with flankers is the high maintenance costs.

Rafales are India state of the art.mmrca to lead ground strikes and tackle high end plaaf fighters post 2020.

Paf f16 can easily be handled 1/1,with any of the following

Mig29k navy
Mug29 upgraded airforce
Mirage2000/5 with mica
Su30mki .

It is in the Interest of US policy to sell Falcons to Pakistan, so they will keep coming, directly or indirectly.
 
Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.
A) The 36 are needed specifically to provide a completely survivable asset in the ADA scenario. As pointed earlier, regardless of the bravado displayed here by the usual suspects from across the border(and whom I am warning in no uncertain terms that snide remarks will lead to a short shelf life for them) the Sukhoi's are still in a semi-Hangar queen state as far as most well informed sources outside of this forum go.
The tit for tat on the Block-52 could be surmised as a theory but as such it may have been the IAF's tactic to try and sell it to the current class of Indian rulers who may be thrifty businessmen but have little knowledge of the product they are paying for.

B)The life cycle costs for 126 jets could be argued in the Rafale's favour and that too in a 20 year all inclusive ownership program, but for 36 jets it is a different question. Many of the members on our side beat the dead drum of why we bought the block-52 without acknowledging or even giving an iota of honest introspection to the idea of having 30 years operating what is the same family. That means already having spent the tangible and intangible costs of platform logistics training, knowledge development and associated ancillary expenditures.

Try putting that down for a platform like the Rafale which for a laughable comment made by an Indian "senior"(A "title" I abhor on this forum for even a third rate -pardon my french - F"ck is senior by posting nonsense as often as they can, and as many Indians do in their attempt to assuage their egos here) that operating the M2K gives them common ground - Other than the M-53 maintenance, there is nothing common as such between the M2K-5H and the Rafale which will let one Indian Airman stroll from one flightline onto another without rigorous and expensive training.

C) Extrapolate that too in terms of the lesser number. This is NOT a "common" jet like the Block-52 was to Pakistan(and there too was an extensive learning curve because of what all is on the jet beyond what one can read on the DSCA notification)

D) I'd disagree; the Indian pilots have zero interest in the Tejas anyway. Not in its current form where it is handicapped by its flight envelope restrictions and Frankenstein supply chain and maintenance. As sweet looking and theoretically good performing as the Tejas is; it is not where the pilots of the IAF would like to be except perhaps the poor Mig-21M jockeys who barely make it past AJT.
The Rafale pilots are coming from experienced M2k pilots and maybe some from Mig-29 and Su-30 sqns

E & G) Make in India is happening in some half baked form or the other. As such Ive seen BEL & components being put into PK radio systems(to be reverse engineered later naturally) so one needs to give credit to their private industry as being eager and generally capable.

What I can agree with is that the Rafale deal is giving zip to the Make in India scheme and is essentially the Indian MoD completing a hurried purchase while circumventing their bureaucratic oversight as much as they can; and off course the Uri incident lit the fire in it.


F) perhaps not, since BAE has some stakes in the Gripen which might be bought per my sources within India due to the Tejas ending up more and more a technology-program than a serious light fighter.

H) That is plausible speculation but that is for the Indian CAG to uncover(or not). As such, the way the media and the bureucrats kept a microscope on the deal; it would have to involve a lot of offshore accounts. To add to the discounts that were poured in by the French, I think the there was certainly some money exchanged to move things along as the French were desperate ( the deal itself has a cost to Dassault and they have to recoup those costs as well, we are talking about the investment of preparing a proposal starting with the MRCA , Airshows, Marketing, negotiations, corporate lawyers and so on .. and then all of that expected revenue being whittled away down from $25 bn to just $8)


As an endnote, let it be clear that the Rafale brings with it an ENORMOUS Capability to India which now has the PAF pushing for its 5th Generation program to move a little faster. But as such, it is not the punch that the IAF wanted and only affirms the 2:1 availability and technological edge(after you take away the hangar queens and obsolete jets) that India wanted.

Pilot availability for generating enough sorties is another discussion entirely.

Till laters,

Oscar Hotel

You want to go for lunch----or dinner.

Damn, din know you were in LA.. just left this morning.. forum badgering aside; would have loved to hang out.
 

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