The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[Wet Shirt Contest]

No need to celebrate, Rafale is a beautiful plane. Now PAF ASAP need to induct Su-35 in Same numbers to keep balance. We can acquire J-31 when china will be able to make a decent engine, so far they are lagging behind in this field. TFX project is also in trouble cause of engine issue, which could also use Chinese engine.

On other side India can't keep T-50, Tejas and F-16 3 projects at the same time. One have to go. I think T-50 project will be shelved as Russians are now reluctant to share advance tech with India after its tilt towards USA. Reduced number of Rafale is also due to F-16 possible deal. Tejas still 5 years behind to compete with Thunder. So where is the stealth plane on Indian side?

Any tit for tat kneejerk reaction is bad what PAF needs is a long term roadmap to augment its fleet and maintain credible deterrence at fraction of cost, Inducting new platforms are expensive, you don't just induct birds you setup and develop entire infrastructure, train pilots etc... even if its just One squadron.

goodday.

 

[RedHulk]

We have already struck the agreement of technology transfer at 3.6 Bn USD

But the end product will not be the same as you intended. Many things will be missing from T-50, which will make it stealth Su-35 in simple words.

Any tit for tat kneejerk reaction is bad what PAF needs is a long term roadmap to augment its fleet and maintain credible deterrence at fraction of cost, Inducting new platforms are expensive, you don't just induct birds you setup and develop entire infrastructure, train pilots etc... even if its just One squadron.

goodday.

By ASAP mean in next 5-6 years.

 

[Surya 1]

But the end product will not be the same as you intended. Many things will be missing from T-50, which will make it stealth Su-35 in simple words.

You do not know anything about PKAFA and FAGFA do you?

 

[RedHulk]

You do not know anything about PKAFA and FAGFA do you?

The one you going to use will not be the same the russians going to use(Tech wise). End of the story.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...tealth-fighter-might-have-fatal-flaw-or-16628

 

[Surya 1]

The one you going to use will not be the same the russians going to use(Tech wise). End of the story.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...tealth-fighter-might-have-fatal-flaw-or-16628

Yes,
ours shall be much better like MKI. DO you know that russia is now inducting indian Russian version of su 30 than Su 35.

 

[Hellfire]

The deal looked close to collapse last year when the French refused to transfer the technology to India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd for 108 of the jets to be built in India. But part of it was salvaged when Narendra Modi, India’s prime minister, personally intervened, announcing that New Delhi would buy 36 aircraft “off the shelf” from France.

That would be due to GoI asking for Dassault to provide guarantee of the Rafale made by HAL, not because of any other reason.

I won't differ from Dassault's POV in that regards myself.

 

[Falcon26]

For the first time, India has indicted a complete system that can go against the PAF F-16s and beat it ( I don't rate the hanger-queen SU-30s) India is fast moving from a predominantly Russian systems towards a Western one. This opens a whole new set of problems for Pakistani military planners.

The reason the Indian government and media can entertain the notion of surgical attacks is due to the perceived weakness of the PAF viz a viz IAF. In the longer run, as the IAF's qualitative and quantitive advantages over the PAF increase, so is the likilhood of aggressions against Pakistan. Pakistan must follow the Egyptian path and rapidly modernize its military despite financial constraints because the alternatives in a rapidly changing geostrategic environment are very dark and glooomy.

 

[Sipahi]

That is true, they probably wanted to mimic the Chinese procurement of the SU-35.. for engine sake, we've heard that India and France wanted to have another deal for France to help with the Engine of the Tejas by transfer of tech..

Exactly.

 

[Arsalan]

That would be due to GoI asking for Dassault to provide guarantee of the Rafale made by HAL, not because of any other reason.

I won't differ from Dassault's POV in that regards myself.

I second you on that. Dassault had a valid point and i am actually impressed that despite the threat and risk of missing entirely on the MEGA multi billions dollar deal the stood firm by their stance and never moved an inch on this. Not giving any guarantees for HAL manufactured Rafale was so important to them that they risked losing billions of dollars deal.

When the problem was raised first i was like "money talks and the French will be made to agree with this term as well". Really impressed how the stood firm by their stance.

 

[randomradio]

The deal looked close to collapse last year when the French refused to transfer the technology to India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd for 108 of the jets to be built in India.

That's wrong. The agreement allowed the transfer of 65% of tech. Snecma wanted to make 100% of the engine in India.

The agreement failed for quite a few reasons.
1. HAL wanted less automation and more manual work. Dassault said that would cost too much.
2. HAL wanted to import tools through a tender. Dassault wanted HAL to buy their tools. Dassault claimed new tools would mean the Rafale will have to be re-certified.
3. Dassault wanted RIL to be the lead integrator instead of HAL.
4. MoD wanted Dassault to guarantee HAL made jets. Dassault disagreed. They wanted executive control if they had to assure quality, HAL disagreed relinquishing control, said they will guarantee quality, MoD disagreed.

The most important reason why the deal failed:- After contract negotiations were supposed to finish, St. Anthony wanted the MMRCA deal to go back to the drawing board, to check if the final price tallied with the initial RFP big. Parrikar pointed out that was the most stupid decision ever. And when Modi signed up for the 36 at French AF prices, Parrikar got the assurance that scuttling the MMRCA and expanding the 36 jets to 180 would make the Rafales much cheaper.

But part of it was salvaged when Narendra Modi, India’s prime minister, personally intervened, announcing that New Delhi would buy 36 aircraft “off the shelf” from France.

The two programs are independent. The 36 aircraft purchase had nothing to do with MMRCA. It was decided by the SFC and relayed to the PM. Parrikar canceled the MMRCA and linked the IAF requirement with the new deal.

One defence industry official told the Financial Times: “This is an end-to-end deal, with the French providing everything from the aircraft to logistics support. We don’t expect Indian companies to do much at all."

This journalist is hopelessly uninformed. 30% of the value of the deal will come back to India in the form of spares production. It's obvious that until this infrastructure is setup we will need support from France. Trappier said that through this deal alone we will be seeing 3 billion euros worth of spares exported.

MII will change the dynamics big time, in less than 10 years, India will be the global supply depot for all the Rafales(minus the French forces). It is possible we may become the single source of supply for all export Rafales, so Dassault can go back to manufacturing 11/year for the French forces, as long as Indian production is cheaper, which is expected.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

For the first time, India has indicted a complete system that can go against the PAF F-16s and beat it ( I don't rate the hanger-queen SU-30s) India is fast moving from a predominantly Russian systems towards a Western one. This opens a whole new set of problems for Pakistani military planners.

The reason the Indian government and media can entertain the notion of surgical attacks is due to the perceived weakness of the PAF viz a viz IAF. In the longer run, as the IAF's qualitative and quantitive advantages over the PAF increase, so is the likilhood of aggressions against Pakistan. Pakistan must follow the Egyptian path and rapidly modernize its military despite financial constraints because the alternatives in a rapidly changing geostrategic environment are very dark and glooomy.

Exactly. The 36 to Trump the 18 Blk 52. This is the exact driver, not Migs and other so called published reasons. The PAF's comfort zone is diminished now, and they must have thinking and acting upon it caps back on.

 

[I FLY HIGH]

PAF is facing a serious challenge ahead with the induction of Rafales in IAF. PAF needs to respond and maintain a credible defence and must not make mistakes like it made for only pursuing F16s in the past .

 

[randomradio]

Exactly. The 36 to Trump the 18 Blk 52. This is the exact driver, not Migs and other so called published reasons. The PAF's comfort zone is diminished now, and they must have thinking and acting upon it caps back on.

The French gave their best prices at their lowest possible profit margin along with 50% in investments. And India is paying a one time charge of $2B for customization.

All that for 36 jets?

 

[cerberus]

India had bdgetery issues, hence the reduced number for the rafale at this point, however they may still purchase additional rafales at a later date. They often order follow on orders.
They also have other options to consider
Gripen NG
Boeing F18
LM F16
Additional SU30s

We budgery issues because we building two AC which cost 5 Billion Each
Including 4-6 SSBN right now funds are committed to that

There options of 18 follow on with 3.5% with this contract so we can assure it will be 54 for IAF after signing this contract

And yes you are right after signing this industry is sure that Rafale M will get bigger pie in Indian Defense in form of Indian Navy requirements of 200 aircraft's for India naval wing before 2027 to Arms its 2 AC in construction

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

We budgery issues because we building two AC which cost 5 Billion Each
Including 4-6 SSBN right now funds are committed to that

There options of 18 follow on with 3.5% with this contract so we can assure it will be 54 for IAF after signing this contract

And yes you are right after signing this industry is sure that Rafale M will get bigger pie in Indian Defense in form of Indian Navy requirements of 200 aircraft's for India naval wing before 2027 to Arms its 2 AC in construction

Will that mean the end of Tejas? Will india move towards a foreign design versus building local, as does in case of Arjun failure and T-90 procurement?