The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[cerberus]

The French gave their best prices at their lowest possible profit margin along with 50% in investments. And India is paying a one time charge of $2B for customization.

All that for 36 jets?

its 54 I don't think parrikar will not get 18 follow on order these jets which at same price

 

[randomradio]

We budgery issues because we building two AC which cost 5 Billion Each
Including 4-6 SSBN right now funds are committed to that

There options of 18 follow on with 3.5% with this contract so we can assure it will be 54 for IAF after signing this contract

And yes you are right after signing this industry is sure that Rafale M will get bigger pie in Indian Defense in form of Indian Navy requirements of 200 aircraft's for India naval wing before 2027 to Arms its 2 AC in construction

IN won't be buying 200 Rafales.

its 54 I don't think parrikar will not get 18 follow on order these jets which at same price

I was replying to Bilal Khan's number.

 

[cerberus]

Will that mean the end of Tejas? Will india move towards a foreign design versus building local, as does in case of Arjun failure and T-90 procurement?

LCA will suited replace different part all together which short range intercept like mig 21 due its Multirole capabilities it can be used in CAS and others role

Rafale procurement is long run statergy to replace jaguar and mig-27 which dedicated role for SEAD and Ground attack in Indian inventory

You will see by 2032 will Replace all jaguars with rafale

As for sea its now dimensions which Indian forces just started

 

[Windjammer]

Couple of interesting points to note in the article, India has finally admitted that the F-16 is much more capable than the all hyped up SU-30MKI as it needs two to counter each PAF F-16......also the first Rafale wouldn't arrive until 2019 and it will not be in full strength untill 20222.
If all goes to plan, that's over five years period add to that the time for the units to become operational.

''India will get the first Rafale in three years, with all 36 touching down by early-2022. Till then, in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them.''
@Bilal Khan 777
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...over-Pakistans-F-16s/articleshow/54491180.cms

 

[cerberus]

IN won't be buying 200 Rafales.



I was replying to Bilal Khan's number.

Who said that I said it will have bigger pie in 200 aircraft's requiments F-35 and f-18 is also part of it

 

[randomradio]

Will that mean the end of Tejas? Will india move towards a foreign design versus building local, as does in case of Arjun failure and T-90 procurement?

The T-90/Arjun issue is totally irrelevant.

And we have committed to 170+ LCAs for both the navy and the air force. That's a good enough number, will keep the production line busy for the next 10 years. The IAF will be getting 40 Mk1s and 80 Mk1As. The Mk1As will come with the Kaveri engine which will be developed through the Rafale offsets with the French. And it comes with an Israeli AESA radar, possibly even a new generation IRST that will be developed with the French for the Rafale.

 

[cerberus]

Couple of interesting points to note in the article, India has finally admitted that the F-16 is much more capable than the all hyped up SU-30MKI as it needs two to counter each PAF F-16......also the first Rafale wouldn't arrive until 2019 and it will not be in full strength untill 20222.
If all goes to plan, that's over five years period add to that the time for the units to become operational.

''India will get the first Rafale in three years, with all 36 touching down by early-2022. Till then, in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them.''

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...over-Pakistans-F-16s/articleshow/54491180.cms

Irony is this you take media gossips to seriously and later discard them when it's not suits narrative of your arguments

TC

 

[Windjammer]

Irony is this you take media gossips to seriously and later discard them when it's not suits narrative of your arguments

TC

Yes when the same media tells you stories about Kargil then the chest thumping never stops.
LTC

 

[randomradio]

Who said that I said it will have bigger pie in 200 aircraft's requiments F-35 and f-18 is also part of it

Sorry for not reading properly.

 

[Dash]

You cerrtainly are not! Other things maybe but not a professional.
If this is the game beginner then you will be puffing and huffing and out of the race for quite some time. It is not easy to spend 8 billion $ and then look for bigger and better even for the mighty Indians.
Dont get me wrong the Rafale is a great piece of machinery but the numbers vs your need dont match up.

I don't claim to be one, and in a sense be post nonsense.
However your response commands a sensible reply so here it is.

You rightly said that the quantity matters. But this govt is not about that. If it wanted to allocate 20 billion for Rafale it will rightly do so, there is no dearth of funds. But it diversified funds to all sectors.

There is a reason why it's going for S400 .

 

[cerberus]

Yes when the same media tells you stories about Kargil then the chest thumping never stops.
LTC

Which media I never quoted media stories only what is said by officials either from army all from there narrative.it's Guillable fan boys to take stories of irrelevance serious

By judging by TOI report you posted its clear that author is not seasonal defense writer but wrote it for sensationalist and eye-catching reasons

TC

 

[Zibago]

@Bilal Khan 777
I have refrained from commenting here bcz i knew what you did with your opening post. At times when folks lower the level of threshold, many folks mis fire and among that misfires you collect the most tangible responses which for most of the eyes looks normal, but to the eyes of a professional, it looks like a gold mine.

Indeed the days of holding upto whatever strategy for PAF and PN as of today holds no more value. As a professional and someone whom i personally hold at high esteem owing to your viewpoints, i sincerely believe a rapid new strategy will be unveiled by Pakistan.

About cost, numbers and everything. I would say you can always find out more as you will have access to many such assessments. You were one of the only few ppl who had said kalavari could react 450m and you were in fact pretty close to the figure with which Kalavari did extensive tests. So i saying anything would look childish in front of the data which you will already have in some form.

I do wish to make one small opinion - The kind of customization and restrictions to any aircraft major like Dassault group in which the deal has an mandatory option of 50% of deal value to be invested in India and 74% of the offset goes on local MIC based procurement of components for these Rafales and 26% for the TOT enabling part will give you a vital clue of what we are aiming here..

Indeed it will utterly foolish on the part of our planners if we spend so much of an exorbitant cost for just 36 and in Trappiers own word this is just first of many deals. The conditions of the offsets and the Eric Trappier quotes from interview indicates the Make In India production line point. To a specific point we do have a requirement of 15 squadrons of this weight category. The Rafales produced in India over time will be 10-15% cheaper owing to massive difference in Labour costs and since Trappier is clear that they will like to nurture a private sector company for strategic partnership and to create a ecosystem to build such a plane and improve the over all skillsets.

As a sound planner and a strategist, today marks a decisive victory for both IAF/In and PAF/PN. Yes my side now knows whats coming in big numbers. and Your side knows you cannot delay anymore the plan to identify and procure new jets to meet the evolving threat index. We might be passionate about our Tejas like your side is with JF17, but we both know we cannot kid ourselves of new emerging threats when we say get Rafale+Super Sukhoi+FGFA later and in your side a MLU F16 which is now not so modern+ some plan for a 5th gen jet which is yet not clear. (I have kept aside JF17 Blk3 for non emotional reason.) In a way and as a avid planner, i think this is a blessing for Pakistan. Now all the upper echelon cannot be complacent nor be blind for their love of existing assets type alone. result will be quick scramble to find a solution. But i worry and i hope really you dont go for quick fix, rather find solutions which can meet the long term needs but with calm cool thinking instead of knee jerk reaction of buying something for 2 sqds and proclaiming we have bought deterrence against Indian Rafale acquisition.

Hope i am not offensive in any manner, as i said what i felt i should say dispassionately and with a straight logical+rational approach.

Mic stands for Military Industrial Complex right?

 

[cerberus]

Yes when the same media tells you stories about Kargil then the chest thumping never stops.
LTC

Again I told I only by narrative and personal diaries of official not media
Though I don't drive discount every media same their some dedicated media which follow serious Defense news
TC

 

[Windjammer]

Which media I never quoted media stories only what is said by officials either from army all from there narrative.it's Guillable fan boys to take stories of irrelevance serious

By judging by TOI report you posted its clear that author is not seasonal defense writer but wrote it for sensationalist and eye-catching reasons

TC

Yea i wonder who was posting pictures of old BMD test to hide the latest failure.
Take a chill pill.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Mic stands for Military Industrial Complex right?

Correct