The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[帅的一匹]

Some only 36 bought platforms and missile can't cause big threat. We will produce hundreds of J11D and J20 to deal it with PL15 ramjet missile. No matter how India try, they are overwhelmed. No need to worry, stay calm. They can't afford the expensive toy in a full scale war, can't fix it, can't produce it.

 

[Bratva]

Eurofighter was rejected for Rafale on the basis of cost. There have been talks to arm MKI with meteors and the usage of Meteors would be against high value targets only such as tankers and AWAACS.



And you think the opening price of French 12 Billion Euro scalled to 7.8 euro, with 14 Indian specific enhansement, 20 technology transfer to India, and Offset of 50 percentage, gaurantee of 75 percentage availability any time, spares for 7 years from 5 years etc etc will be for the mere 36 Rafale.

The drama that ensued in purchasing 36 rafael was due to Price negotiations . Do you think in future when price would be further increased due to inflation, India will repeat this telecast all over again ?

Imagine 8.8 billion for 36 and what would have been the price for 126 then !

 

[randomradio]

There is no restriction agreed, but the price is 3 times greater. Lets see the number of missile procured, if I am correct it should be around 50 max.

I would put the numbers at 100.

And a lot of Meteors will be ordered by many countries, so the costs will be low.

https://warisboring.com/the-best-air-to-air-missile-in-the-world-is-in-sweden-339b2cb6afa8

The Luftwaffe will acquire 150 missiles at a cost of around $323 million, plus a further $175 million for integration. That compares favorably with a price tag of $423 million for 180 AIM-120Ds, which the Pentagon paid in 2012.

 

[帅的一匹]

The drama that ensued in purchasing 36 rafael was due to Price negotiations . Do you think in future when price would be further increased due to inflation, India will repeat this telecast all over again ?

Imagine 8.8 billion for 36 and what would have been the price for 126 then !

Too expensive to be effective.

 

[Bratva]

No. The contract may not have anything extra, but the IGA does. So costs won't be affected. In fact, for MII, the costs may be lower depending on the Indian industry's capabilities.



There is no such restriction for Meteor. It can be used against any targets. It's made for use against fighters.

You are oversimplifying the whole thing ignoring inflation, the fluctuation of Dollar-Indian currencies and no guarantee of either France or indian economies remain stable in next 10 years. So considering all these factors, It is not easy to predict the price will not rise further if India chooses to buy further rafaels in 2022-2023

 

[帅的一匹]

I would put the numbers at 100.

And a lot of Meteors will be ordered by many countries, so the costs will be low.

https://warisboring.com/the-best-air-to-air-missile-in-the-world-is-in-sweden-339b2cb6afa8

Even 100 Meteors will be depleted within few days in a full scale war.

 

[randomradio]

Imagine 8.8 billion for 36 and what would have been the price for 126 then !

A lot cheaper than 8.8B because about 2B was just customization and 800M was weapons cost.

So 126 jets should come in at 21B. Of course bulk purchases would mean a bit more discount. So it should work out well in the long run, including the weapons.

You are oversimplifying the whole thing ignoring inflation, the fluctuation of Dollar-Indian currencies and no guarantee of either France or indian economies remain stable in next 10 years. So considering all these factors, It is not easy to predict the price will not rise further if India chooses to buy further rafaels in 2022-2023

Inflation in France is between .5 and 1%. For currency, we have 3.5% max. Addition of new tech is the only thing that's extra. Cost of production will reduce since the French are manufacturing more jets now.

 

[Bratva]

A lot cheaper than 8.8B because about 2B was just customization and 800M was weapons cost.

So 126 jets should come in at 21B. Of course bulk purchases would mean a bit more discount. So it should work out well in the long run, including the weapons.

So you mean to say, If next batch is purchased it wont be customized or no spare parts would be bought or no weapons would be purchased or the prices of rafael would remain constant in next 5-6 years ? You see you are again ignoring lot of variables in the equations. That journalist specifically quoted, India has to re-negotiate the deal for further Rafael. And you think French will sell you the rafael at the same price they sold you this time in future as well ? Do you seriously believe french to be kind hearted businessmen

 

[randomradio]

Even 100 Meteors will be depleted within few days in a full scale war.

Whatchu talkin' 'bout?

The 36 are only the initial numbers, similar to how we ordered 18 Su-30s the first time. The number of Rafales will increase once MII starts, you can expect at least 120+ more minimum.

 

[Bratva]

A lot cheaper than 8.8B because about 2B was just customization and 800M was weapons cost.

So 126 jets should come in at 21B. Of course bulk purchases would mean a bit more discount. So it should work out well in the long run, including the weapons.



Inflation in France is between .5 and 1%. For currency, we have 3.5% max. Addition of new tech is the only thing that's extra. Cost of production will reduce since the French are manufacturing more jets now.

Rafael orders are coming in small batches, Cost of production will not go down because Dassault has to maintain the break-even and with the re-investment of money back into India, How Dassault is going to profit from this overall if they are going to sell you the next batch in less price than this deal ?

Whatchu talkin' 'bout?

The 36 are only the initial numbers, similar to how we ordered 18 Su-30s the first time. The number of Rafales will increase once MII starts, you can expect at least 120+ more minimum.

What is the guarantee BJP will remain by 2021-2022 and what if next government put a stop to more rafaels because of increasing prices of rafael then


Lets take an example of MKI, Did its price reduced once you start making it in India or did russia charged you more for the production line in India vis a vis the prices of MKI made in russia instead of India

 

[zebra7]

The drama that ensued in purchasing 36 rafael was due to Price negotiations . Do you think in future when price would be further increased due to inflation, India will repeat this telecast all over again ?

Imagine 8.8 billion for 36 and what would have been the price for 126 then !

Sir, I fail to understand that are you trying to close your eyes with your own hand. First check what does this Rafale deal means.

Negotiations over the past 17 months have yielded more advantages to the Indian side over the MMRCA deal. The French had made an opening offer of €12 billion in May 2015 when the negotiations began. The French offer came down to €8.6 billion on the midnight of 25-26 January, 2016 when French President François Hollande was in India as a chief guest for the Republic Day celebrations. But the Indian side wanted the price to be reduced further. It was in May 2016 that the two sides finally agreed at a price of €7.878 billion.. Prime Minister Modi had confirmed in Paris in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafales, all built in France. The Rafales will have 14 India-specific enhancements and MBDA-built 150km-range Meteor air-to-air missiles & Scalp-EG cruise missiles as part of the €7.878-billion (around Rs 59,000 crore) deal. The French will also guarantee performance-based logistics support which means that 75% of the fleet will be airworthy at any given time. IAF will also get free training for nine personnel, including three pilots, estimated to be worth €100 million. The IAF will get an additional guarantee for an additional 60 flight-hours for the trainer version of Rafale, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge. The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of 7 years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. The standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%.


The cost looks higher because it includes the cost of spares, support, training, infrastructure. The flyaway cost of the Rafale which India got comes to arround 85 Million a piece, now Please tell me the price of the F16 Block 52 which PAF got, without subsidy.

 

[randomradio]

So you mean to say, If next batch is purchased it wont be customized or no spare parts would be bought or no weapons would be purchased or the prices of rafael would remain constant in next 5-6 years ? You see you are again ignoring lot of variables in the equations. That journalist specifically quoted, India has to re-negotiate the deal for further Rafael. And you think French will sell you the rafael at the same price they sold you this time in future as well ? Do you seriously believe french to be kind hearted businessmen

Customization is a one time cost. We don't have to pay for integration of equipment again and again.

French Rafale prices have been pretty constant. Only addition of new tech has increased price, which is perfectly fine. The entire program for the French is only 4% above budget.

The journalist is misinformed. The IGA has all the main details of how we purchase new jets. We had the same thing with the Russians for the MKI also, that's why we paid only $40M for the 42 new jets from Russia, which was adjusted according to inflation since the first deal, and that was more than 12 years after the first signature.

 

[zebra7]

Rafael orders are coming in small batches, Cost of production will not go down because Dassault has to maintain the break-even and with the re-investment of money back into India, How Dassault is going to profit from this overall if they are going to sell you the next batch in less price than this deal ?

I think we should ask the French person then

@Taygibay

 

[Bratva]

Sir, I fail to understand that are you trying to close your eyes with your own hand. First check what does this Rafale deal means.

Negotiations over the past 17 months have yielded more advantages to the Indian side over the MMRCA deal. The French had made an opening offer of €12 billion in May 2015 when the negotiations began. The French offer came down to €8.6 billion on the midnight of 25-26 January, 2016 when French President François Hollande was in India as a chief guest for the Republic Day celebrations. But the Indian side wanted the price to be reduced further. It was in May 2016 that the two sides finally agreed at a price of €7.878 billion.. Prime Minister Modi had confirmed in Paris in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafales, all built in France. The Rafales will have 14 India-specific enhancements and MBDA-built 150km-range Meteor air-to-air missiles & Scalp-EG cruise missiles as part of the €7.878-billion (around Rs 59,000 crore) deal. The French will also guarantee performance-based logistics support which means that 75% of the fleet will be airworthy at any given time. IAF will also get free training for nine personnel, including three pilots, estimated to be worth €100 million. The IAF will get an additional guarantee for an additional 60 flight-hours for the trainer version of Rafale, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge. The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of 7 years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. The standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%.


The cost looks higher because it includes the cost of spares, support, training, infrastructure. The flyaway cost of the Rafale which India got comes to arround 85 Million a piece, now Please tell me the price of the F16 Block 52 which PAF got, without subsidy.

@PARIKRAMA Is there follow on purchase clause in the deal or If India goes for further batch, you have to negotiate the deal once again with new set of prices ?

 

[zebra7]

Another good story

https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-succ...rom-upgraded-mirage-2000.451144/#post-8723929

So MICA and Rafale would increase the comonality along with the Mirrage UPG.