The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[Spectre]

@Spectre you don't even need a reason to wait for an official statement from the PM/DM to know more Rafales are coming (and in vast numbers). Look at how much is being spent by the GoI on Indian specific upgrades and to tailor the Rafale to Indian conditions ; 1.5bn EUR. What country would spend that just for a fleet of just 36-54 jets? Come on, let's connect the dots, we don't need everything spoon fed to us. There is no way THIS govt under THIS PM would okay this.

This contract has successfully laid the groundwork for a hell of a lot more. @PARIKRAMA


@Topic this whole thread is asinine but is so typical of many Pakistani members inability to digest harsh realities and instead inventing ever more elaborate lies to comfort themselves so they can sleep at night.

If your primary adversary procuring a fighter and weapon (Meteor) that is literally decades ahead of what you operate is a reason to celebrate then I would like to take a hit on whatever you are smoking!

But then again, I am still waiting for the PAF's response to 300+ MKIs...


Oh wait, I forgot. "the bomb".

What country you ask? India is not your typical country.

What country would allow French to charge 3 Billion to upgrade it's M2k fleet? That is more than the cost of buying brand new airframes in itself... 60 Million per plane for 30 year old planes. How does that make sense?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

@Spectre you don't even need a reason to wait for an official statement from the PM/DM to know more Rafales are coming (and in vast numbers). Look at how much is being spent by the GoI on Indian specific upgrades and to tailor the Rafale to Indian conditions ; 1.5bn EUR. What country would spend that just for a fleet of just 36-54 jets? Come on, let's connect the dots, we don't need everything spoon fed to us. There is no way THIS govt under THIS PM would okay this.

This contract has successfully laid the groundwork for a hell of a lot more. @PARIKRAMA


@Topic this whole thread is asinine but is so typical of many Pakistani members inability to digest harsh realities and instead inventing ever more elaborate lies to comfort themselves so they can sleep at night.

If your primary adversary procuring a fighter and weapon (Meteor) that is literally decades ahead of what you operate is a reason to celebrate then I would like to take a hit on whatever you are smoking!

But then again, I am still waiting for the PAF's response to 300+ MKIs...


Oh wait, I forgot. "the bomb".

"Don't revive a settled matter" - Confucius

As for the Paks sleeping well at night, it's due to a clear and unambiguous message delivered by Merhum Zia-ul-Hak to Late Mr. Gandhi during Operation Basstacks around 30 years back. It was well understood by the best Brahmin leaders India has ever produced. The rest are all details..

 

[ghazi768]

This is from a naive and novice. I have this question in my mind - if at the end of the day it all boils down to nuke option, what's the point of taking these deals too seriously?? It's like the book has already been cooked for the pre-fixed bottom line while sweating over minute expenses and assets lines...

Great point you mentioned

But lets look at it from this angle....
Tenures at high end in military are short, and political ones can even end up abruptly. Some at IAF HQ and and Indian PMO may actually be raising glasses filled with finest of liquids. A grim situation in a distant state whose majority is absolutely hated by majority every where else, a few statements about Baluchistan, and a sudden Uri. Lo and behold, you can sneak in an 8 bn$ agreement which could have raised quite a few eye brows in other times. That can be considered a palm greasing master stroke

 

[randomradio]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

There will be a Rafale MII, single engine MII and LCA MII for a total of about 400 jets.

The 36 jets are merely an urgent operational requirement.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

No. The Rafale won the tender on lower life cycle costs versus the Typhoon.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

We will have to see.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

We are buying 120 Tejas to replace 120 Mig-21s. We are also buying another single engine fighter, at least 90-120.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

I would recommend following the Rafale thread. This is what Trappier said:

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

The Typhoon has been available to any country that India doesn't like since 2012.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

Wait and watch.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

The BJP are nationalists. They don't take bribes that negatively affect the nation. They have other sources of 'income'.

 

[IblinI]

"Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft“

 

[sathya]

India would select a fighter and get a deal that is complementary to other fighters in its aresnal , even the inefficient congress won't select something as theOP has thought.

They will always a negative angle to anything will do but here benefits will far outweigh risks.

 

[hawksway4]

The negotiations for these aircrafts took forever ! Thumbs up to India for bringing a beast to their team ! When in good hands even 1 is enough to do the damage yet they will have 36 of them ! It's a game changer indeed !
The recent heat and media bashing made certain that this deal must be signed and be done with !

Now we wait for how Pakistan coups with this !

Indeed we are in never ending arms race ! All imported stuff will be used by PAF and IAF to show off !

 

[The SC]

Sir, I think they deliberately bought 36 aircrafts to make sure tejas program remain in picture.

That is true, they probably wanted to mimic the Chinese procurement of the SU-35.. for engine sake, we've heard that India and France wanted to have another deal for France to help with the Engine of the Tejas by transfer of tech..

 

[ConcealCarry]

@Bilal Khan 777

I believe you are an ex-serviceman from PAF. I am very disappointed with your analysis. You may have some valid points from economic perspective of the deal, but that should not be (being Ex-PAF person) your concern.

Let me give you an example

You buy a 12" long knife for $40 to defend yourself from an arch enemy that is looking for an opportunity to cut you. Your enemy spends $100 and buys a 36" long sword.
You are celebrating because he spent $60 more, he would need a longer scabbard, he will have to work more to maintain the longer edge?

Sir you should worry about your head. Period.
I hope your thought process is not reflective of the organization you worked for.

@MastanKhan @Oscar

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Great point you mentioned

But lets look at it from this angle....
Tenures at high end in military are short, and political ones can even end up abruptly. Some at IAF HQ and and Indian PMO may actually be raising glasses filled with finest of liquids. A grim situation in a distant state whose majority is absolutely hated by majority every where else, a few statements about Baluchistan, and a sudden Uri. Lo and behold, you can sneak in an 8 bn$ agreement which could have raised quite a few eye brows in other times. That can be considered a palm greasing master stroke

"Everything makes sense when expressed in dollars, cents and pence" - a line from a Pink Floyd song

La Jevap....

No wonder the grandest Indian invasion is always a super acquisition away. Indian ex officers were writing that their top graduates are opting for logistics corps.. clever folks..

 

[iPhone]

The only reason I see for us to celebrate is that PAF will now finally and seriously think about inducting a true and potent fifth generation jet. Other than that theres no reason for celebration over the indian acquisition of such a potent weapon system, Rafael.

 

[fatman17]

India had bdgetery issues, hence the reduced number for the rafale at this point, however they may still purchase additional rafales at a later date. They often order follow on orders.
They also have other options to consider
Gripen NG
Boeing F18
LM F16
Additional SU30s

 

[Hellfire]

"Everything makes sense when expressed in dollars, cents and pence" - a line from a Pink Floyd song

La Jevap....

No wonder the grandest Indian invasion is always a super acquisition away. Indian ex officers were writing that their top graduates are opting for logistics corps.. clever folks..

A war is determined by logistics, and there is a tendency of the fine officers heading into the Special forces for their intial 5-10 years and then reverting to the parent corps

You have no clue, it is amusing.

 

[randomradio]

India had bdgetery issues, hence the reduced number for the rafale at this point, however they may still purchase additional rafales at a later date. They often order follow on orders.
They also have other options to consider
Gripen NG
Boeing F18
LM F16
Additional SU30s

The 36 jet deal wasn't a budget related decision, it was signed for the SFC. When the 36 jet deal was signed, the MMRCA deal was still ongoing. After Modi signed up with the French for the 36, Parrikar canceled the MMRCA and decided to combine the IAF requirement with the 36 jet deal. So Rafale MII is happening. We are looking at a fleet that's as big as the MKI.

Anyway, you missed PAK FA.

 

[Surya 1]

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

1) No LCA meant to replace Mig 21 and not raffle. This is a category for india in Mig 29 class i.e medium category. .

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

2) No, had we purchased without technology transfer and offset it would not have cost us more than 100 million. It comes with 50% offset and technology transfer so what you say in not true.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

3) capacity is already fully realized and there is no competitor in region nor even in foreseeable feature. It has only one competitor and that is EF typhoon. This shall be a premier fighter of the world till 2050. even Our mirage 2000 upg has no competitor in region today.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

4) Has Pakistani pilots have lost the interest in JF 17 after flying F 16? Meanwhile the rafale comes, we shall have a mighty Tejas MK2 i our inventory. Even our tejas Mk1+ shall be a premier fighter with very low weight and very high load carrying and 9g and AOA above 30* with AESA and best in the class EW suite. That will have nothing parallel in the region.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

5) No, it comes with technology tranafer and 50% set off which shall boost make in india. Indian air force shall give top up order and that shall be made with reliance in 100% make in india.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

6) EF deal is closed a long back. French and israeli and US avionics are best. We have access to all these technologies. We do not mind if anybody gets inferior avionics from china or even europe.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

7) the civilian run state has managed to fullfill all the requirement of the country against a military dominated country which failed to acquire just 8 4 decade planes. we are fully capable to meet all our need by our own or from outside at our own terms and conditions.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Even though what you say is truth (Which is not true) , we are the country to get the planes and best cost french has ever offered to any one including their own air force. SO it is a win win situation.

@Surya 1 Sir i really admired your passion, i am wondering if you could write something for us as well, you can probably come out with an essay of more than a million words.

You know, you guys are very special and would like to listen to what you believe is great. My fact based writing may cause inconvenience to you. So better reading for you is something written in OP. You can enjoy reading the articles written in Pakistani media. That should give you more fun.