The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[MilSpec]

He is point by point remarks to your post.

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent

Rafale by no means is a Fifth Gen aircraft so, your contention to begine with is false.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.


Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

Incorrect, MRCA > which dubbed an option between Mirage200H and mig29SMT in early 2004 was envisaged as a replacement of Mig21MF and S series aircraft. The MMRCA program under which Rafale became a front runner was a requirement for medium role aircraft to bridge the gap between Light Weight Fighter and the Heavy Weight Fighter line> focus on the term Medium.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

Surprisingly you are wrong again, PLM costs of Rafale is actually lower than all the contemprary aircrafts which were int he downslect of the MMRCA program. @PARIKRAMA can qoute the numbers for you, and there is a Rafale sticky on the forum. I would highly advise reading up on the resources before shaping your opinion on the system.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

Care to explain which procurements? and the time frame estimates. Being a professional on the forum we would expect a bit more details in your analysis.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

Well if you recall correctly, India operates Mig29K, Mig29UPG, Mirage2000H, Su30MKI, and Jaguars, none of which have diminished the IAF's interests in the LCA. LCA tejas and Rafale are not in the same class any comparison woul be amateurish.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

You do realise that Make in India is not limited to aircrafts.
Following are the aras it covers
http://www.makeinindia.com/sectors
and following are the live projects:
http://www.makeinindia.com/live-projects-industrial-corridor

I hope that offers some understanding of scale of Make In India Program.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

Unfortunately, you are quite wrong on that account too,
http://www.ibtimes.com/india-buy-145-howitzer-artillery-guns-bae-systems-ba-750-million-deal-2386855
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...0/bae-systems-working-advanced-hawk-jet-india
http://www.baehal.com/
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...sting-m777-howitzers/articleshow/51020337.cms

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

Lame duck political approach of civilian government to exactly procure what the IAF had recommended in technical evaluations,
I would respectfully disagree and urge You to revisit your thought,as it makes no logical sense. This was not a Musharraf style chinese awacs procurement against the reccomendations of the airforce, rather the exact opposite.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

that is just speculations, and given that there is a Chief vigilance commissions and a CAG audit on the every major deal, if there are any irregularities, we will deal with it. I am not sure if you are aware of such a thing such as position of office like a comptroller Auditor General, it basically overseas all the major investments made by tax payers money so irregularities and deficiencies can be dealt with.

@PARIKRAMA @Spectre @Abingdonboy @hellfire @anant_s @sathya @Water Car Engineer

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Far from reality, I congratulate India on Rafale contract. However, i invite you to dispassionately think about the other side of the equation.



This is a wise move in India with "Make in India". However the first deal is about 36 jets and all offsets are later.



I disagree. Air Battle is fought by pilots, not robots. The result of an air battle depends on sound thinking and strategy. have a heart. Your side is not sleeping and trains hard.


It is the same country that chose to eat grass to make nuclear weapons. With a striving economy, and justifications from India, capital purchase for Army and AF maybe scheduled already. Pakistan may continue to surprise keynesians like yourself.


I am a soldier. I met my intended goal. BR


Your opinion is valued. Thanks.


Capital purchases are treated differently.


Please ask specifically. I am all about a cordial discussion sir.


Your opinion is valued, and the purpose of my post is to encourage the exact argument that you have made.

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value" - Marshal Foch, Allied Supreme Commander during WW1

During the third battle of Panipat, if the history doesn't fail me, French tactics and weapons arrived via Ibrahim Kardi, but ultimately the British stole the show!!! Bloody Ingliz - always "ahead on the curve"...

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

He is point by point remarks to your post.


Rafale by no means is a Fifth Gen aircraft so, your contention to begine with is false.





Incorrect, MRCA > which dubbed an option between Mirage200H and mig29SMT in early 2004 was envisaged as a replacement of Mig21MF and S series aircraft. The MMRCA program under which Rafale became a front runner was a requirement for medium role aircraft to bridge the gap between Light Weight Fighter and the Heavy Weight Fighter line> focus on the term Medium.


Surprisingly you are wrong again, PLM costs of Rafale is actually lower than all the contemprary aircrafts which were int he downslect of the MMRCA program. @PARIKRAMA can qoute the numbers for you, and there is a Rafale sticky on the forum. I would highly advise reading up on the resources before shaping your opinion on the system.



Care to explain which procurements? and the time frame estimates. Being a professional on the forum we would expect a bit more details in your analysis.



Well if you recall correctly, India operates Mig29K, Mig29UPG, Mirage2000H, Su30MKI, and Jaguars, none of which have diminished the IAF's interests in the LCA. LCA tejas and Rafale are not in the same class any comparison woul be amateurish.




You do realise that Make in India is not limited to aircrafts.
Following are the aras it covers
http://www.makeinindia.com/sectors
and following are the live projects:
http://www.makeinindia.com/live-projects-industrial-corridor

I hope that offers some understanding of scale of Make In India Program.



Unfortunately, you are quite wrong on that account too,
http://www.ibtimes.com/india-buy-145-howitzer-artillery-guns-bae-systems-ba-750-million-deal-2386855
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...0/bae-systems-working-advanced-hawk-jet-india
http://www.baehal.com/
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...sting-m777-howitzers/articleshow/51020337.cms



Lame duck political approach of civilian government to exactly procure what the IAF had recommended in technical evaluations,
I would respectfully disagree and urge You to revisit your thought,as it makes no logical sense. This was not a Musharraf style chinese awacs procurement against the reccomendations of the airforce, rather the exact opposite.



that is just speculations, and given that there is a Chief vigilance commissions and a CAG audit on the every major deal, if there are any irregularities, we will deal with it. I am not sure if you are aware of such a thing such as position of office like a comptroller Auditor General, it basically overseas all the major investments made by tax payers money so irregularities and deficiencies can be dealt with.

@PARIKRAMA @Spectre @Abingdonboy @hellfire @anant_s @sathya @Water Car Engineer

I guess you missed all the other posts. Thank you for taking the pain to educate me. I have no issues with being wrong. But you missed the purpose of my post entirely, which from you is slightly unexpected.

 

[Nilgiri]

mig 27*s

6 times.. hmm...so american jets must b very cheap to operate?
any source to back up your claim

so it will take time to realize capabilities for india, but no time will b taken to realize capabilities of competitive procurement in the region?
so what u imply is india will take years to perfect themselves with rafale but pakistan will buy an aircraft and suddenly lean and reach it full potential

decrease in no of rafales had many reasons one of them was to keep tejas alive
seriously if u are a professional this is a kiddish point


how killing make in india will b reason for pakistan to celebrate should u celebrate your own achievements
and acc to u make in india had only one step ? make rafale?
btw rafale deal existed long before make in india
as u said (The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary) hope those other countries will find typhoon cheaper
ok our lame duck move gave u 8 points to celebrate..who would have thought indian defence ministry was not smart enough to calculate 8 points u wrote

and u figured it out

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy @Cherokee @Omega007
check this out we got a professional over here

The OP already said its an opinion. I have no interest in this kind of thread really since the general members can rip it all apart with relative ease....and it will ultimately lead to the typical kind of thread down the road.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Above all it will certainly piss off Russians. So that is another goodie.

Yeah. Because it's not like they have a $30BN next gen fighter project with India (FGFA), future leasing options to India for SSNs, S-400 sale etc etc.


India has the ability and most importantly pockets to satisfy all of its friends.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

The OP already said its an opinion. I have no interest in this kind of thread really since the general members can rip it all apart with relative ease....and it will ultimately lead to the typical kind of thread down the road.

As the typical "thread" becomes a match of reference hauling and fact posting, no thinking is done. No discussion is done. No opinions are shared. People of the sub-continent are become sad pathetic farmed chickens, who can memorize facts and fight others on how their chicken is better than neighbors duck. Nobody is ready to think, or look their own propaganda, lies, and deceit.

I request everyone to start doing what nobody wants you to do, think critically.

 

[wiseone2]

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value" - Marshal Foch, Allied Supreme Commander during WW1

it took a while for air force to refine tactics and designs

 

[Spectre]

He is point by point remarks to your post.


Rafale by no means is a Fifth Gen aircraft so, your contention to begine with is false.





Incorrect, MRCA > which dubbed an option between Mirage200H and mig29SMT in early 2004 was envisaged as a replacement of Mig21MF and S series aircraft. The MMRCA program under which Rafale became a front runner was a requirement for medium role aircraft to bridge the gap between Light Weight Fighter and the Heavy Weight Fighter line> focus on the term Medium.


Surprisingly you are wrong again, PLM costs of Rafale is actually lower than all the contemprary aircrafts which were int he downslect of the MMRCA program. @PARIKRAMA can qoute the numbers for you, and there is a Rafale sticky on the forum. I would highly advise reading up on the resources before shaping your opinion on the system.



Care to explain which procurements? and the time frame estimates. Being a professional on the forum we would expect a bit more details in your analysis.



Well if you recall correctly, India operates Mig29K, Mig29UPG, Mirage2000H, Su30MKI, and Jaguars, none of which have diminished the IAF's interests in the LCA. LCA tejas and Rafale are not in the same class any comparison woul be amateurish.




You do realise that Make in India is not limited to aircrafts.
Following are the aras it covers
http://www.makeinindia.com/sectors
and following are the live projects:
http://www.makeinindia.com/live-projects-industrial-corridor

I hope that offers some understanding of scale of Make In India Program.



Unfortunately, you are quite wrong on that account too,
http://www.ibtimes.com/india-buy-145-howitzer-artillery-guns-bae-systems-ba-750-million-deal-2386855
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...0/bae-systems-working-advanced-hawk-jet-india
http://www.baehal.com/
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...sting-m777-howitzers/articleshow/51020337.cms



Lame duck political approach of civilian government to exactly procure what the IAF had recommended in technical evaluations,
I would respectfully disagree and urge You to revisit your thought,as it makes no logical sense. This was not a Musharraf style chinese awacs procurement against the reccomendations of the airforce, rather the exact opposite.



that is just speculations, and given that there is a Chief vigilance commissions and a CAG audit on the every major deal, if there are any irregularities, we will deal with it. I am not sure if you are aware of such a thing such as position of office like a comptroller Auditor General, it basically overseas all the major investments made by tax payers money so irregularities and deficiencies can be dealt with.

@PARIKRAMA @Spectre @Abingdonboy @hellfire @anant_s @sathya @Water Car Engineer

I have had objections to Rafale deal but none of them covered by the "professional" you have rebutted.

In itself, Rafale is an excellent "buy" on IAF insistence but my concern is the overlap Rafale has with PAKFA not LCA. Now that the details are out, we will have 36 of them by '21 the same time line we are looking for PAKFA.

In current time frame - classifications such as medium/heavy are archaic. Rafales specially the standard we are going on for are in muti role in the truest sense, it remains to be scene what capability enhancement PAKFA offers over Rafale and if that enhancement justifies the procurement of entirely new platform. Combine that with super sukhoi upgrade PAKFA in it's current development profile looks like an iffy bet.

The other objection I have had is the piecemeal deal for 36. Wouldn't it have been more sensible to get the whole deal at one go? Now I know @PARIKRAMA and few others are saying that we will go for a MII line. It certainly makes sense but then we are not often know for taking most sensible decisions - we often take politically expedient ones. Who is to say that change in Govt won't derail future orders. MII portion if was feasible could have been incorporated and finalized as MMRCA itself. Now Parikkar's statement justifying the smaller purchase of 36 Rafales by giving BMW analogy also puts a roadblock for more orders. Till date there has been no official indications that order amount will be increased. None what so ever from MoD or PMO.

In short - if we go for substantial numbers then Rafale is worth it but if it goes the M2k way then it is huge mistake.

 

[danish_vij]

The OP already said its an opinion. I have no interest in this kind of thread really since the general members can rip it all apart with relative ease....and it will ultimately lead to the typical kind of thread down the road.

precisely

 

[Abingdonboy]

I have had objections to Rafale deal but none of them covered by the "professional" you have rebutted.

In itself, Rafale is an excellent "buy" on IAF insistence but my concern is the overlap Rafale has with PAKFA not LCA. Now that the details are out, we will have 36 of them by '21 the same time line we are looking for PAKFA.

In current time frame - classifications such as medium/heavy are archaic. Rafales specially the standard we are going on for are in muti role in the truest sense, it remains to be scene what capability enhancement PAKFA offers over Rafale and if that enhancement justifies the procurement of entirely new platform. Combine that with super sukhoi upgrade PAKFA in it's current development profile looks like an iffy bet.

The other objection I have had is the piecemeal deal for 36. Wouldn't it have been more sensible to get the whole deal at one go? Now I know @PARIKRAMA and few others are saying that we will go for a MII line. It certainly makes sense but then we are not often know for taking most sensible decisions - we often take politically expedient ones. Who is to say that change in Govt won't derail future orders. MII portion if was feasible could have been incorporated and finalized as MMRCA itself. Now Parikkar's statement justifying the smaller purchase of 36 Rafales by giving BMW analogy also puts a roadblock for more orders. Till date there has been no official indications that order amount will be increased. None what so ever from MoD or PMO.

In short - if we go for substantial numbers then Rafale is worth it but if it goes the M2k way then it is huge mistake.

1) talks for more units (at least 90) for the IAF to be made in India have been going on since at least January 2016. These talks will now take centre stage with the 36 off the shelf deal clinched.
2) there is no overlap with the FGFA, that system won't be with the IAF before 2025. The FGFA is the long term replacement for the MKI and MiG-29UPG and is optimised for A2A, the Rafale's superiority is in strike missions and is to replace the Mig-27, Jaguar and Mirage 2000.

 

[Spectre]

1) talks for more units (at least 90) for the IAF to be made in India have been going on since at least January 2016. These talks will now take centre stage with the 36 off the shelf deal clinched.
2) there is no overlap with the FGFA, that system won't be with the IAF before 2025. The FGFA is the long term replacement for the MKI and MiG-29UPG and is optimised for A2A, the Rafale's superiority is in strike missions and is to replace the Mig-27, Jaguar and Mirage 2000.

1. We have no confirmation of 90 more units from any Govt quarters. You may very well be right, infact I pray that you are right but allow me to assume the opposite in light of lack of any official communication from MoD/PMO which isn't above leaking things showing itself in good light. MII line would be politically great so when I hear not a squeak from Indian Govt despite of political dividend - I remain worried. Only official statement is by Parrikar categorically saying we won't go for more.

2. I am not talking about FGFA which isn't even a dirty thought, let alone a fertilized egg. I am talking about PAKFA - Rafale I believe is equally proficient in A2A with meteor infact meteor along with spectra gives it an edge over both SU-30 MKI and planned PAKFA when taking on other fighter jets.

 

[Nilgiri]

As the typical "thread" becomes a match of reference hauling and fact posting, no thinking is done. No discussion is done. No opinions are shared. People of the sub-continent are become sad pathetic farmed chickens, who can memorize facts and fight others on how their chicken is better than neighbors duck. Nobody is ready to think, or look their own propaganda, lies, and deceit.

I request everyone to start doing what nobody wants you to do, think critically.

OK where would you say your original points/opinion stands right now after the responses so far? Have you changed any of them (out of interest)?

 

[Abingdonboy]

1. We have no confirmation of 90 more units from any Govt quarters. You may very well be right, infact I pray that you are right but allow me to assume the opposite in light of lack of any official communication from MoD/PMO which isn't above leaking things showing itself in good light. MII line would be politically great so when I hear not a squeak from Indian Govt despite of political dividend - I remain worried. Only official statement is by Parrikar categorically saying we won't go for more.

2. I am not talking about FGFA which isn't even a dirty thought, let alone a fertilized egg. I am talking about PAKFA - Rafale I believe is equally proficient in A2A with meteor infact meteor along with spectra gives it an edge over both SU-30 MKI and planned PAKFA when taking on other fighter jets.

Time will soothe your concerns sir don't worry.

 

[Nilgiri]

Only official statement is by Parrikar categorically saying we won't go for more.

I'm pretty sure that was just a statement for the time being and also for direct purchase method used for these 36.

The DM and Modi don't want to give too much bait for usual quarters to latch on to as far as overspending etc is concerned. It will be a term 2 thing when they have a fresh mandate....right now there are bigger things to focus on...after having established India has taken the initial dive into the Rafale pool.

Fiscally it makes too much sense to capitalise later on the one time costs commited right now.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm pretty sure that was just a statement for the time being and also for direct purchase method used for these 36.

The DM and Modi don't want to give too much bait for usual quarters to latch on to as far as overspending etc is concerned. It will be a term 2 thing when they have a fresh mandate....right now there are bigger things to focus on...after having established India has taken the initial dive into the Rafale pool.

Fiscally it makes too much sense to capitalise later on the one time costs commited right now.

@Spectre you don't even need a reason to wait for an official statement from the PM/DM to know more Rafales are coming (and in vast numbers). Look at how much is being spent by the GoI on Indian specific upgrades and to tailor the Rafale to Indian conditions ; 1.5bn EUR. What country would spend that just for a fleet of just 36-54 jets? Come on, let's connect the dots, we don't need everything spoon fed to us. There is no way THIS govt under THIS PM would okay this.

This contract has successfully laid the groundwork for a hell of a lot more. @PARIKRAMA


@Topic this whole thread is asinine but is so typical of many Pakistani members inability to digest harsh realities and instead inventing ever more elaborate lies to comfort themselves so they can sleep at night.

If your primary adversary procuring a fighter and weapon (Meteor) that is literally decades ahead of what you operate is a reason to celebrate then I would like to take a hit on whatever you are smoking!

But then again, I am still waiting for the PAF's response to 300+ MKIs...


Oh wait, I forgot. "the bomb".