The Horror's of the Taliban

[MIG_ACE]

Moderators,



Salim and other Indians please stay out of this discussion area. You always creating exaggeration and creating unrequired arguements

You are not a moderator. So stop acting like one. Even legitimate moderators do not order people to stay out of threads.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yarmook:

Discussion on any issue is open to anyone, provided it remains civil.

If as a Pakistani you feel that some Indian members are "exaggerating" or "misleading" or "propagandizing" - feel free to rebut their claims or point out why and how they are wrong.

If you see any instance of abuse or deliberate attempts to flame, let the moderators know through the "report post" feature, and we will decide on what needs to be done - but on the forum itself, please confine yourself to civil arguments over why you disagree with someone else's opinion.

 

[roadrunner]

Let us accept that the 100+ plus were innocent and the US is wrong.

But the fact that it is known is in itself indicates the accountability and transparency of the western system.

In fact, if it were not so, many more would have vanished and gone.

Can we say the same for Mehsud?

Does Mehsud indicate the same transparency and accountability?

You're wrong on the transparency part. Mehsud is very transparent, and even films himself taking part in beheadings. He doesn't seem to care about being known as a murderer. One cannot say the same about the US (or for that matter most literate governments).

On accountability, Mehsud does lag way behind. But the US wouldnt be far either given the light punishments meted out to their security staff who (supposedly) acted on their own, torturing and in some cases killing innocent people arrested.

There is not much difference. You're looking for a difference that isn't so big.

Han Blix is the sole authority? Not that I feel that US is without blemish, but I would abhor wearing coloured glasses to push a point as you are prone to doing.

Colored glasses? Blix was the head of the UN inspections team. He WAS the sole authority to determine whether WMD existed in Iraq. He said the evidence was flimsy. I'm not quite sure I'm reading you correctly. You're saying the 2003 invasion was legitimate? If you are, you have not a clue. It was a unilateral invasion without the blessing of the UN, the member nations, and without the blessing of Blix, the head of the inspections team.

And what has he rejected?

Blix? The whole idea that Iraq had WMD was rejected by Blix way before the invasion.

Iraq dumped WMDs years ago, says Blix | World news | The Guardian

Isn't that what the invasion was all about? WMD? Or are you trying to tell me that Iraq was a fundamentalist Muslim country with a fanatical Christian vice president, and alcoholic President?

And as far as randomly picking up people, how is it that you have suddenly developed amnesia? Have you forgotten how many were picked up in Pakistan without a trace and for which the ex CJ was all het up about and signatured his doom?

If Pakistan is involved in randomly picking up people and torturing or killing them, it too is wrong to do so, and makes them on the same level as Baitullah Mehsud's random killings. However, I don't believe Pakistan has done this. There is no evidence, except for the words of some so called relatives that could just be playing chess in a political game.

If you compare Mehsud with Abu Gharaib, then you do not understand the Pashtuns penchant for revenge and anger. There is enough of literature to indicate their cold bloodness and that is why they are feared as adversaries. They brook no remorse and no niceties. Have you not seen the clips of the beheadings in the football stadiums in Afghanistan during the Taliban regime?

Alright, so they behead people, in the US they inject people to kill them? What's the difference, aside from one having a technological and perhaps less bloody method of killing that's more kosher for the audience, the other doing it in a less civil manner (and understandable given the ravages of war)?

Mehsud and the US Army cannot be compared. Mehsud is freelance and without authority of the country he belongs to, while the US Army intent is known and their actions are in consonance with their mission. By your logic, Jack the Ripper would assume legitimacy since his mission was against prostitutes of London and that too was indirectly backed by religion!!

You're still missing the point! What authority did the US have to go into Iraq?! It was a unilateral intervention, that was opposed by most governments and people of the world, and was opposed by the only international law enforcemnt institution on the planet! Do you still not get this simple point? Mehsud = unilateral action. US = unilateral action.

Asymmetric battles is a fancy word that covers suicide bombers. Yet, it is the cowards who adopted the mode of killing people surreptitiously. I am surprised that the Pashtuns, whose fighting prowess is so lauded, have come to this sorry state where they behave like women in burkha! They appear to be losing their gurda!

Asymmetric warfare has been used since the beginning of time by lots of nations. It's definitely not cowardly. One could argue bombing, with no retaliatory fire, from thousands of feet is cowardly. I'm not entirely sure who is doing the suicide bombings at the moment in Afghanistan. Perhaps it's the Arabs, perhaps some Tajiks. During the Soviet war, suicide bombings were uncommon, so I don't think it's the Pashtuns doing it.

The US action in Iraq is cognisable and cannot be seen. Mehsud's action is of a coward and cannot be seen before the act! That is the difference.

You want to run that by me again? it makes no sense.

If you feel that the Durand Line is bogus, so be it. Try to sell it to the Pakistani govt.

Durand Line can be genuine or bogus. It doesn't make a bit of difference. It's just a line on the map. Noone pays much attention to it on the ground.

The contention that there are two Talibans then also becomes bogus!

Just for you. Let's call them the FATA Taliban, and the Eastern Afghanistan Taliban. There, I hope it's more clear!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Have you read Agnostic Muslim's post. He flies the Pakistani Flag and is a Moderator and is living where the action is - Pakistan and not in some safe haven!

Thank you for your kind words Salim, however I must point out that I am not quite "living where the action is", since I am in my final year of college in the US. I do have a trip back home planned for December, between semesters.

That said, my family lives in Pakistan, and one of the suicide bombings that targeted the FIA a few months ago occurred a couple of blocks from where my parents and siblings live, so I am acutely aware of the repercussions of continued instability.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You're wrong on the transparency part. Mehsud is very transparent, and even films himself taking part in beheadings. He doesn't seem to care about being known as a murderer. One cannot say the same about the US (or for that matter most literate governments).

On accountability, Mehsud does lag way behind. But the US wouldnt be far either given the light punishments meted out to their security staff who (supposedly) acted on their own, torturing and in some cases killing innocent people arrested.

There is not much difference. You're looking for a difference that isn't so big.

Osama also films.

If Mehsud films himself at beheadings and displays it, it show his psychopathic bent of mind.

US is an country and not an individual and in case it goes beyond limits, one can always appeal to the UN. I agree nothing will happen, but then it will be a moral accountability. Mehsud, on the other hand, is not accountable, not even to his own govt!!

Colored glasses? Blix was the head of the UN inspections team. He WAS the sole authority to determine whether WMD existed in Iraq. He said the evidence was flimsy. I'm not quite sure I'm reading you correctly. You're saying the 2003 invasion was legitimate? If you are, you have not a clue. It was a unilateral invasion without the blessing of the UN, the member nations, and without the blessing of Blix, the head of the inspections team.

Please check your initial statement regarding Hans Blix. While Blix was not categorical, Baradi was. Indeed, as events proved that there was no WMD. While I am aware that Iraq is an important fulcrum to the US strategy, I have not bought the rationale given by the US regarding the reason why Iraq had to be attacked. It was an invasion that the US has not been able to live down.

Isn't that what the invasion was all about? WMD? Or are you trying to tell me that Iraq was a fundamentalist Muslim country with a fanatical Christian vice president, and alcoholic President?

How does this feature in context to my reply?

We were talking about Afghanistan. Taliban did not hand over Osama who masterminded the WTC and so the US attacked and then things escalated.

And anyway, it is very convenient to label President of Islamic faith who have lost as alcoholic! So many leaders of Islamic country drink and yet they run their country well. So, what has alcohol got to do with all this? Why find excuses? Are you aware that Bush does not drink? So, he, as per your index, is a super chap, right?

If Pakistan is involved in randomly picking up people and torturing or killing them, it too is wrong to do so, and makes them on the same level as Baitullah Mehsud's random killings. However, I don't believe Pakistan has done this. There is no evidence, except for the words of some so called relatives that could just be playing chess in a political game.

Then what was the big deal stuff with the ex CJ so keen to get to bottom of the missing persons?

So, you feel that Pakistan did not pick up chaps randomly as reported in the Pakistan media? OK, by me.

It other words, you are telling me that the ex CJ was daft to get to the bottom of the mystery of the missing persons.

If the CJ was daft, then it is not a very rosy illustration of the way Pakistan's judiciary run.

Alright, so they behead people, in the US they inject people to kill them? What's the difference, aside from one having a technological and perhaps less bloody method of killing that's more kosher for the audience, the other doing it in a less civil manner (and understandable given the ravages of war)?

You are merely forcing a debate where no lies. So, you feel beheading is the same as an Army taking action against what they perceive as their enemy?

What do you think the Pakistani Army is there for? Distribute roses? Or be used only for earthquake relief? What do you think they have the tanks and other weapons for? Display for National Days? An Army is to translate its country's mission with all that it has. That is what is generally believed, right? And terrorists? Are they same? Whose mission are they delivering? You might say Allah's (God's). Pray, who has authorised them to be the instrument of God? Have they got a firman from God in writing? They are holding all at ransom for their personal agenda and fooling the gullible that they are upholding their God's desires!!

You're still missing the point! What authority did the US have to go into Iraq?! It was a unilateral intervention, that was opposed by most governments and people of the world, and was opposed by the only international law enforcemnt institution on the planet! Do you still not get this simple point? Mehsud = unilateral action. US = unilateral action.

Yes, it was an unilateral action. Who is denying that?

The UN did not oppose it. It left it very vague as it usual does.

The US interpreted it to suit their convenience, even though a large majority of the world feel that it was totally incorrect!

Asymmetric warfare has been used since the beginning of time by lots of nations. It's definitely not cowardly. One could argue bombing, with no retaliatory fire, from thousands of feet is cowardly. I'm not entirely sure who is doing the suicide bombings at the moment in Afghanistan. Perhaps it's the Arabs, perhaps some Tajiks. During the Soviet war, suicide bombings were uncommon, so I don't think it's the Pashtuns doing it.

Terrorism has been there for the beginning of time. Fine.

The fact that one cannot face and fight his enemy is cowardly. At least, in my sense of valour and courage. A mongoose is brave to face a snake, but a jackal and a hyena are not!

So, suicide bombings are done by everyone else but Pashtuns? Why? Have they drunk some special elixir? Again, a state of denial and make belief! Agnostic just recently indicated in one of his post of how Mehsud was luring children to become suicide bombers. So, that puts paid to your state of denial. I am sure Mehsud is not an Arab or a Tajik and I am sure he is not a Lapp either!

You force far fetched ideas, conjectures and their like as facts and as axiomatic.

It is time you look at reality and work hard to bring back Pakistan to its feet. Denial, pulling wool, fooling yourself, and hanging on to the belief that people of the Islamic faith are angels and can do no wrong, is what is making a bad situation get worse. It is people like you who is encouraging the terrorists through your make belief and apathy.

Think of the Nation before your religious belief that people of Islamic faith can do no wrong. They are also human. Shake your apathy and seize the bull by the horns!

You want to run that by me again? it makes no sense.

Indeed it will make no sense to you. Nothing new!

Durand Line can be genuine or bogus. It doesn't make a bit of difference. It's just a line on the map. Noone pays much attention to it on the ground.

Indeed it is a line on the Map as is the LOC, IB etc.

But it is these irrelevant lines that divide people and are the source of all their sorrows.

But conveniently, at this moment, it makes no difference to you. One wonders why other such lines get you so het up!


J

ust for you. Let's call them the FATA Taliban, and the Eastern Afghanistan Taliban. There, I hope it's more clear!

Again a neat backflip to suit the flavour of the post!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Taliban desecrate body of slain opposing tribal leader
The Long War Journal
By Bill Roggio
December 17, 2008 1:03 AM

The Taliban have defeated the primary tribal opposition organized against it in the insurgency-wracked district of Swat in Pakistan's northwest. The leader of the tribal resistance was killed and two of his aides were beheaded last weekend after the Taliban overran the region controlled by the opposition.

Pir Samiullah, a rival tribal and religious leader opposing Mullah Fazlullah's forces in the Matta region of Swat, and eight of his followers were killed in a Taliban assault on Dec. 16. Two of his aides were subsequently beheaded in public, while an estimated 40 of his followers have been captured. "The Taliban also torched the houses of Samiullah and 15 elders of his group," Daily Times reported.

After Samiullah was buried, the Taliban returned, dug up his body and hanged it in public. The Taliban made an example of Samiullah and those who oppose Fazlullah's rule.

Samiullah was the first tribal leader in Swat to raise a lashkar, or tribal army, to oppose the Taliban. He claimed to have organized more than 10,000 tribesmen to oppose the Taliban and protect 20 villages. Samiullah and his followers are members of the Gujjar community, which is a group distinct from the dominant Pashtun tribal confederations that support the Taliban.

The Taliban targeted Samiullah and his tribal lashkar in late October. Fazlullah's forces killed seven members of Samiullah's tribal council and took more than 60 hostage after an assault on a tribal meeting.

The Pakistani government has been courting the tribes to support the efforts to take on the Taliban in the tribal areas and in the settled districts of the Northwest Frontier Province. Tribal lashkars have been formed in Peshawar, Swat, Dir, Buner, Bajaur, Khyber, and Arakzai. The Taliban have ruthlessly attacked tribal groups organizing resistance.

The Taliban hold an advantage over the disparate tribal groups in organization and fighters. The Taliban are organized throughout the tribal areas and the settled districts of the Northwest Frontier Province, while tribal resistance groups operate independently. The Taliban "out-number and out-gun [resisting tribal groups] by more than 20 to 1," a senior US military intelligence official told The Long War Journal in October. And the tribes receive little support from the government and military. In many cases, they do not want government assistance.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Is this practice sanctioned by some cleric that gives his blessing via a fatwa? I mean, does the Taliban have the religious "permission" of some Islamic scholar to do such things to fellow muslims? Do they need such permission to save their own souls?

 

[haviZsultan]

Death to taliban. Who is funding these godamn beasts? They deserve their entire generations killed for what they are doing to our country. Bloody traitors. Pakistan is going to hell because of these idiots and their secret backers.

 

[haviZsultan]

Is this practice sanctioned by some cleric that gives his blessing via a fatwa? I mean, does the Taliban have the religious "permission" of some Islamic scholar to do such things to fellow muslims? Do they need such permission to save their own souls?

This act is haram in the Religion of Islam. Taliban are illiterates who just pose as the only people who know about Islam for their personal gains. Their scholars or clerics are the taliban leaders like Mullah Fazlullah heading taliban of Swat and Omar Khalid in Mohmand and Baitullah Mehsud the asshole who leads the entire TET movement. You know how they are and what they are. They are ignorant little animals worthy of only being tortured and killed.

Dont ask wierd questions and show your ignorance. We know Americans know very little knowledge about world affairs and their minds are often twisted by their media but dont ask questions that dont make sense. Read the news and if you dont manage to understand something then type it on google and search. Afterall you created this whole problem. We should'nt have declared war on afghan taliban and u shud have fought ur own war. We should have known that when trouble would arise America would do the same that it had done for years which is betray us just like after soviet war the afghans were betrayed. Remember if our country turns into another Afghanistan we will not forgive the Americans and it will raise twice as much anti americanism than there is now.

 

[must7]

& they call themselves the true followers of Islam.

Shame on TTP supporters & the people themself.

 

[Evil Flare]

How the Hell they claim to be Muslim

Insult a Dead Body

 

[PakSniper]

Is this practice sanctioned by some cleric that gives his blessing via a fatwa? I mean, does the Taliban have the religious "permission" of some Islamic scholar to do such things to fellow muslims? Do they need such permission to save their own souls?

The US isn't innocent of mutilating bodies of dead fighters, etc either. I have read reports and saw pictures of US troops deficit bodies and burning them. Look at your own self before pointing fingers to other, and I'm sure Christianity doesn't allow for US troops to do that either right?

 

[Imran Khan]

How the Hell they claim to be Muslim

Insult a Dead Body

who say they are muslims they are wrost then barbers

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Is this practice sanctioned by some cleric that gives his blessing via a fatwa? I mean, does the Taliban have the religious "permission" of some Islamic scholar to do such things to fellow muslims? Do they need such permission to save their own souls?

lol... do you know how many scholars have been killed or at least threatened by these fanatics? it's called extremism. there's nothing wrong with fighting back, but these guys are just monsters. they'll kill you and your family, even if you get tired of fighting alongside them. once you're in these organizations, you'll never get out.

that's why the tribals started to fight the militants, however, as you can see things have gone worse thanks to the approval of air strikes. now the tribal elders cannot manage to get local support, instead they themselves are getting killed.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Taliban suicide bombers strike in Pakistan, Afghanistan

By Bill Roggio, the Long War Journal
December 28, 2008 3:17 PM

Taliban suicide bombers struck on both sides of the Durand Line, killing 51 and wounding score more in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The suicide attack in Pakistan took place in the settled district of Buner in the insurgency-infested Northwest Frontier Province. A suicide bomber detonated his bomb in a polling station in a school in Shalbandai. More than 35 Pakistanis, including children and policemen, were killed in the strike.

Elections were being held to fill a vacant seat in Pakistan's national assembly. Pakistan's election commission closed down polling stations in Buner and suspended the by-election.

The local tribes in the Shalbandai region of Buner killed six Taliban fighters on Aug. 12.

The last suicide attack in Buner took place on Dec. 9, when a terrorist was stopped before he could strike at a government installation. One child was killed and another was seriously wounded in the bombing.

The Taliban have attempted to extend its power in Buner, but local tribes have formed militias to oppose the Taliban expansion. The Taliban still maintain a strong presence in the district despite the tribal militias.

Across the border in Afghanistan, a suicide bomber struck outside of a government center located next to a school in the Haqqani Network stronghold of Khost province. Fourteen children and two soldiers were killed in the attack. Thirteen children and 12 soldiers were among the more than 50 Afghans wounded in the attack.

Khost province in the home of the Haqqani Network, which is run by former mujahideen leader Jalaluddin Haqqani and his son Siraj. Both Jalaluddin and Siraj have close ties with al Qaeda its leader, Osama bin Laden.

The US military has conducted multiple cross-border airstrikes agianst the Haqqani Network infrastructure in North Waziristan.