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The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

the problem is, hindustan treats freedom chanting protestors as terrorists....look at the language being used by hindustanys against them

they arent using bombs or engaging in sabotage....yet hindustany forces are subduing them using lathi charge and other heavy handedness which is resulting in loss of lives, injuries and damage to property

it is no wonder that the Kashmiris are again on uprising and civil disobedience
 
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the problem is, hindustan treats freedom chanting protestors as terrorists....look at the language being used by hindustanys against them

they arent using bombs or engaging in sabotage....yet hindustany forces are subduing them using lathi charge and other heavy handedness which is resulting in loss of lives, injuries and damage to property

it is no wonder that the Kashmiris are again on uprising and civil disobedience

India doesn’t treat protesters as terrorists…the biggest proof for that is the protesters themself,they are still alive and continuing their protest. It is true that whenever peaceful protests turn into violent mode we use police and army to control them. A mob violence and use of police force will result injuries, lathicharge, and sometimes even loss of life (it is not intentional), it happens not only in India but everywhere in the world including Pakistan.


For terrorists from inside and outside we have another treatment which will fix their meeting with god….and they are punished there. Lot of them got visa on the spot in Mumbai and one is still waiting in jail. :sniper:
 
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India doesn’t treat protesters as terrorists…the biggest proof for that is the protesters themself,they are still alive and continuing their protest. It is true that whenever peaceful protests turn into violent mode we use police and army to control them. A mob violence and use of police force will result injuries, lathicharge, and sometimes even loss of life (it is not intentional), it happens not only in India but everywhere in the world including Pakistan.

singh saab, glad you stated your position on this matter; if only some of your fellow countrymen knew how to differentiate between terrorist and freedom fighter ;)
 
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India hold on to Kashmir because of strategic and tactical importance, it seperates China and Pak and an independent Kashmir would provide easier access to india's main advesaries , surely this is not acceptable to India.

Secondly, if Kashmir is divided then the concept of inter-faith integration in india would take a big hit as all manner of faiths and caste would start to state the Kashmir precedence and demand sovereignity.

Thirdly, India stands to loose control of 6 major rivers passing through or originating in the mountains of Kashmir.

No ammount of insurgency can alter these facts, so it'll be much easier for Pakistan to stop hyper-ventilating over Kashmir and settle for LoC as genrally accepted border which would pave the way for more autnomy for Kashmir but not independence.

If Pak wants to continue this futile battle for Kashmir then so be it, I don't think people of India are too bothered about that as India has many good things to look forward to in the future, simply by ignoring Pakistans cries and appeals for talks on Kashmir.

If the heavy presence of military is required to keep Kashmir with India then so be it. I don't think that flutters India or the world community that much.

Another point worthy of a mention is that an Independent state of Kashmir would be nothing more than a pseudo-Pakistan. It would emerge as the new hotbed for global terrorism, especially given the increasing number of people believeing in Rabid religious agenda of Ghazwa-e-Hind or whatever which states that Pakistan would take over India and Israel or whatever that BS is.
 
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The matter is before UN and should be settled according to the UN resolution.

The 1948 resolution can't be implemented until the assurance that was provided to India for implementing that resolution is fulfilled. Let me quote the assurance that was passed as a resolution by the UNSC council


Resolution on Assurances adopted by U.N. Commission for India and Pakistan(UNCIP) 1948

Resolution adopted by UNCIP
This resolution was in the form of an assurance provided to India before the main U.N. Resolution of August 13, 1948, was to be implemented. The Resolution on Assurance said:-

1. Responsibility for the security of J&K rests with Government of India.

2. The sovereignty of the J&K Government over the entire territory of the State shall not be brought under question.


3. There shall be no recognition of the so-called Azad (Free) Kashmir Government.

4. The territory occupied by Pakistan shall not be consolidated to the disadvantage of the State of J&K.

5. The administration of the evacuated areas in the North shall revert to the Government of J&K and its defence to the Government of India, who will, if necessary, maintain garrison for preventing the incursion oftribesmen and for guarding main trade routes.

6. Pakistan shall be excluded from all affairs of J&K in particular in the plebiscite, of one should be held.

7. If a plebiscite is found to be impossible for technical or practical reasons, the Commission will consider other methods of determining fair and equitable conditions for ensuring a free expression of people’s will.

8. Plebescite proposal shall not be binding upon India if Pakistan does not implement Part I and II of the resolution of 13th August, 1948.

(The resolution had called upon Pakistan to withdraw troops from occupied Kashmir)

This is in UNSC records. Legally from the UN point of view there was no question on doubting India's claim on the entire state of J&K until the plebiscite is conducted. But the emerging cold war led to the US and UK siding with India and Pakistan was not pressured to vacate the state of J&K. As part 8 of the resolution states, the plebiscite proposal is not binding in the current scenario. AT that time right after the brutal invasion of the tribals, the Pakistani leaders were afraid that if a Plebescite is conducted under the popular leadership of Sheikh Abdulla, India might win and hence the part 1 and 2 of the requirements were not fulfilled.

Those who harp on the UNSC resolution also should know that the plebiscite was restricted to only India or Pakistan and the separatists want independence, there is hardly any support for joining Pakistan in the vale.

The only possible solution IMO is something along the lines of the 4-point Musharraf formula. The sooner all sides accept it, the sooner we will see peace.
 
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UN secretary general voices concern over IHK’s situation

UNITED NATIONS: The UN secretary general on Wednesday voiced concern about the current situation in Indian-held Kashmir, and called for resumption of the Indo-Pak composite dialogue to resolve the dispute.

“In relation to recent developments in IHK, the secretary general is concerned over the prevailing security situation... over the past month,” associate spokesman Farhan Haq said.

”He calls on all concerned to exercise utmost restraint and address problems peacefully,” Haq said, while responding to questions about recent deployment of Indian troops in IHK. app


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 
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The 1948 resolution can't be implemented until the assurance that was provided to India for implementing that resolution is fulfilled. Let me quote the assurance that was passed as a resolution by the UNSC council


Resolution on Assurances adopted by U.N. Commission for India and Pakistan(UNCIP) 1948

Resolution adopted by UN


This is in UNSC records. Legally from the UN point of view there was no question on doubting India's claim on the entire state of J&K until the plebiscite is conducted. But the emerging cold war led to the US and UK siding with India and Pakistan was not pressured to vacate the state of J&K. As part 8 of the resolution states, the plebiscite proposal is not binding in the current scenario. AT that time right after the brutal invasion of the tribals, the Pakistani leaders were afraid that if a Plebescite is conducted under the popular leadership of Sheikh Abdulla, India might win and hence the part 1 and 2 of the requirements were not fulfilled.

Those who harp on the UNSC resolution also should know that the plebiscite was restricted to only India or Pakistan and the separatists want independence, there is hardly any support for joining Pakistan in the vale.

The only possible solution IMO is something along the lines of the 4-point Musharraf formula. The sooner all sides accept it, the sooner we will see peace.

Since you share the same name as mine I shall be as polite as possible.

The resolution you have mentioned and quoted was not adopted by the UN because Pakistan rejected it. I have searched and found no such record on the UN. This is what I found and is legally binding on Pakistan and India:

ODS HOME PAGE

ODS HOME PAGE

You are senior member and we expect facts from you. In future please try to post facts.
 
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Since you share the same name as mine I shall be as polite as possible.

The resolution you have mentioned and quoted was not adopted by the UN because Pakistan rejected it. I have searched and found no such record on the UN. This is what I found and is legally binding on Pakistan and India:

ODS HOME PAGE

ODS HOME PAGE

You are senior member and we expect facts from you. In future please try to post facts.

Just so that we are clear.. The UN resolution on Kashmir belongs to a category of un enforcable resolutions. So legally nothing is binding on India or Pakistan..
 
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Just so that we are clear.. The UN resolution on Kashmir belongs to a category of un enforcable resolutions. So legally nothing is binding on India or Pakistan..

Yes my mistake. The resolutions pertaining to Kashmir are un enforceable. Perhaps I should have stated morally binding on both countries.
 
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@ejaz007
My post clearly states that this was an assurance given to India before the adoption of the 1948 resolution. If you read the UN resolutions as many have pointed out, the part I and part II of the resolutions required Pakistan to vacate their territory.

Hence all the requirements to hold plebiscite and arrange for a secure and peaceful environment for the it to occur is addressed to GoI. The last attempt to get both India and Pakistan to comply in 52 was a proposal for India to reduce its troop to 21,000 and Pakistan to 6,000 but both governments rejected this.

What I am saying is that the UN resolutions can't be implemented because the prereqs have not been fulfilled. Moreover, the options of the plebiscite are only India and Pakistan when the valley separatists want independence. We have to move forward from the cycle of violence and bring peace to the valley. And raising false mirages will not help.
And even on top of that, the polarisation is very strong where only the valley which consists of 4 million or so have between 80-90% talking about independence. But the problem is that Jammu and Ladakh including their Muslim majority districts of Kargil, Poonch and Rajouri are overwhelmingly in favor of joining India.

So a small valley will not be economically or politically viable. Moreover, the valley Kashmiris want the entire state including Gilgit-Baltistan as the new state. The disintegration of J&K where each part goes its own way is even more unacceptable particularly to the valley Kashmirs than joining India under an assured autonomy clause.

Hence the move by Musharraf to solve the Kashmir solution along the 4 point formula was one that would have had the widest possible consensus.

There will be hardliners who want entire J&K to go to Pakistan, others who want independence and still others who want the entire state to go to India and remove any autonomy in the state. But we cant keep everyone happy.
 
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Himal Southasian/Children of the tehreek

Children of the tehreek

By: Sanjay Kak

The recent violence suggests that, after 20 years, Kashmir has indeed changed – though not in the ways commonly suggested.



When columns of the Indian Army drove through Srinagar on 7 July, rifles pointed out at the city, it was meant as a show of force; to tell its ‘mutinous’ population – and those watching elsewhere – just who was really in charge. Disconcertingly for the Indian government, it has had the opposite effect. Alarm bells have been sounding off: the situation in Kashmir is again explosive; the lid looks ready to blow off.

Although the army has for years virtually controlled rural Kashmir, images of grim-faced soldiers on a ‘flag-march’ in Srinagar carried a different symbolism. For Srinagar has been the exception – the showpiece of ‘normalcy’, of a possible return to the bosom of India’s accommodating heart. Typically, the well-publicised entry of the soldiers was followed by a flurry of obtuse clarifications: the army was not taking over Srinagar; this was not a flag-march, only a ‘movement of a convoy’; yes, it was a flag-march, but only in the city’s ‘periphery’. The contradictions seemed to stem from a reluctance to deal with the elephant in the room: after more than 15 years, the army had once again been called out to stem civil unrest in Srinagar.

When the Indian Army was deployed in Kashmir during the 1990s, the rebellion seemed to be fast spinning out of India’s control. Twenty years later, what has changed? There is now a massive investment in a ‘security grid’, built with more than 500,000 security personnel and shored up by a formidable intelligence network, said to involve some 100,000 people. The armed militancy, too, has officially been contained. Meanwhile, the exercise of ‘free and fair’ elections has been carried out to persuade the world that democracy has indeed returned to Kashmir. (Elections certainly delivered the young and telegenic Omar Abdullah as Chief Minister; but about democracy, Kashmiris will be less sanguine. They will recognise it the day the military columns and camps are gone from the valley.)

Yet July was haunted by echoes of the early years of the tehreek, the movement for self-determination. As a brutally imposed lockdown curfew entered its fourth day, there was no safe passage past the paramilitary checkpoints – not for ambulances, not for journalists. For those four days, Srinagar’s newspapers were not published; local cable channels were restricted to just 10 minutes a day, and still had to make time for official views. SMS services remained blocked the entire month; in some troubled towns, cell-phone services were completely discontinued. But Srinagar still reverberated with slogans every night, amplified from neighbourhood mosques: ‘Hum kya chahte? Azadi!’ (What do we want? Freedom!) and ‘Go back, India! Go back!’

War of perception
The real barometer of the panic in the Indian establishment, though, was not the army’s flag march. It was the frantic speed (and dismal quality) of the attempts to obscure the crisis. In place of politics, it was once again left to disinformation to staunch the haemorrhage. At first, the Home Ministry began with the improbable charge that the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Toiba was organising and funding stone-throwing on the streets of Srinagar. This was a rather tame accusation for a militant group whose real signature is the ferocity of its attacks, as displayed clearly in the Mumbai strikes of November 2008. The only people who appeared to swallow this line were the loyal television anchors on the ‘national’ media; but with no real evidence to go on, even they let the mess quietly slide off the table.

Evidence arrived soon enough, when the Home Ministry made available a taped phone conversation between two men described as ‘hardliner’ separatists. As the audio crackled and hissed, television channels provided translations: ‘There must be some more deaths’; ‘10-15 people must be martyred’; ‘You are getting money but not doing enough’. Despite the comic-book directness, it sounded like serious business. In the context of such ‘evidence’, mainstream television channels began parachuting their star power into Srinagar, and the empty, silent city became the backdrop against which they could stage their own spectacle.

The CNN-IBN correspondent, happily embedded inside an army truck as it made its way through Srinagar, was extolling the impact of the flag march (even as an official was busy denying that there had been any such thing). NDTV provided its usual high-wire balancing act, with Barkha Dutt dredging up the ‘pain on both sides’. The grief of the mourning father of 17-year-old Tufail Mattoo, killed when his skull was taken apart by a teargas shell, was weighed against a Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) commandant ruing the damage to his truck’s bulletproof windscreen. But such expedient journalism paled before far more damaging hubris. While these ‘national’ reporters had the run of curfew-bound Srinagar, they omitted to mention that their Srinagar-based colleagues – local, national and even international journalists – had been locked in their homes and offices for three days.

While the spin generated by New Delhi probably has an impact on the middle-class viewer of the mainstream Indian media, it has little effect on people in Kashmir. On the ground, they continue to make sense of their own reality. The inability, or refusal, to comprehend this has become endemic to all arms of the Indian state. An exaggerated, even fluid, notion of reality takes its place, in which perception is everything. This was underlined forcefully in June when the chiefs of the army, navy and air force announced the new ‘Doctrine on Military Psychological Operations’, a policy document that aims to create a ‘conducive environment’ for the armed forces operating in ‘sub-conventional’ operations such as Kashmir and the Northeast. The doctrine reportedly provides guidelines for ‘activities related to perception management’. Manipulating the output of a few dozen newspapers and television channels is certainly hard work, but nothing compared with the much harder task of understanding – perhaps even accommodating – the aspirations of Kashmiris.

Out of touch

The intensity of the crisis did help in one way, though: it forced some candour out of the familiar faces of Kashmiri politics. (These are the visible ones, called up in times of crisis to represent Kashmir on television. The invisible ones were, as usual, already in detention.) Mehbooba Mufti of the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) admitted on television that mainstream (or pro-India) political parties have lost all credibility, and now have no role to play in stemming the anger in the streets. When asked why politicians were not taking out ‘peace marches’, former separatist and now ‘mainstream’ leader Sajjad Lone bluntly said that all of them ran the risk of being lynched by the people. Meanwhile, all the oxygen was taken up by discussion of the survival of Omar Abdullah’s government, something that mattered little to protestors.

Amidst the baying chorus of TV panellists outraged by the gall of ‘stone-pelters’, many have forgotten that in 1991 it was precisely such public demonstrations – and civilian casualties at the hands of the CRPF – that finally triggered a full-fledged armed militancy. In recent weeks, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah’s language has shown how out of touch he is, joining the talk of ‘miscreants’ with his comments about ‘frayed tempers’ and waiting for ‘tempers to cool down’. Across the board, this disconnect with the structures of electoral politics helped to put the elections of two years ago in some perspective.

In 2007, I finished a documentary film on Kashmir, which had tried to pull back from the quagmire of everyday events to understand the inchoate ‘sentiment’ for azadi. Quite by coincidence, the film arrived at the very moment that the constructed ‘normalcy’ of Kashmir was about ready to be shown off: tourists were flowing in, more than 400,000 people had taken part in the pilgrimage to the Amarnath shrine, and elections were being discussed. Screenings of the documentary in India were often met with raised eyebrows, with people incredulous that such sentiments could survive the weight of the cast-iron security grid – and, of course, the passage of 20 years. Yet things can change in a day, and so they did.

In early summer 2008, isolated protests broke out over the acquisition of land for the Amarnath Shrine Board. This eventually turned into the most formidable upsurge of the past decade, with peaceful demonstrations of up to 20,000 people at a time. The cascading protests carried on for several months before being curbed, but not before more than 60 people lost their lives to the bullets of the security forces. In the summer of 2009, Shopian district was shaken by the rape and murder of two young women; once again, mostly peaceful protests paralysed the valley, and Shopian town was shut down for an unprecedented 47 days. The cycle of street violence in 2010 too began several months ago, with the uncovering of the Machil killings, where soldiers of the Indian Army (including a colonel and a major) were charged with the murder of three civilians, presenting them as militants for the reward money (see accompanying story by Dilnaz Boga). Protests led to the killing of protesters, which has led to more protests, and more killings.

New front

What do Kashmiris want? Most of all, even before azadi, they want justice. As they watched the Indian Army columns moving through Srinagar last month, Kashmiris would have been reminded that the protests this summer started with the Army in the killing fields of Machil. But like the Shopian incident, Machil too has begun to be edged off the burner, and forgotten, as have the hundreds of such killings that civil-society groups have painstakingly tried to resurrect. So, just as elections cannot be confused with democracy in Kashmir, an elected government is no substitute for a working justice system. Meanwhile, the prolonged use of the Public Safety Act, and the dangerous license of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, is slowly wearing thin for the young. This July, as the numbing news of young Kashmiris being shot in street protests started pouring in, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the chairman of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, told the press that ‘the baton of the freedom struggle has now been passed on to the next generation’. He could have added that, over twenty years, the baton might also have moved from the armed militancy and the ‘separatists’, straight onto the street.

As the taped phone conversation provided by the Home Ministry was being celebrated on TV, in only a few hours a more accurate translation of what was actually an innocuous conversation was burning through the Internet. This phone ‘evidence’ evaporated under the heat of scrutiny, its effects felt even in Delhi newsrooms. Such a speedy deconstruction of a suspect claim is only the latest in the deeply political use of the Internet by young Kashmiris. These are children of the tehreek, born and brought up in the turmoil of the last two decades. They have not, and probably will not, become armed mujahideen. But thousands are out on the streets, throwing stones, occasionally drawing blood, often taking hits, but in any case successfully paralysing the increasingly bewildered security forces. What armed militant could achieve more?

So will the Internet be the next threat for the Home Ministry? Will they accuse the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen of supporting the Facebook chatter about the ‘intifada’ in Kashmir? And after that? Already, young Kashmiris on social-networking sites are reporting phone calls from belligerent police officers, threatening them with serious charges including ‘waging war against the state’. Reports said that Qazi Rashid, the young mirwaiz of south Kashmir, has been accused of ‘instigating violence and justifying stone-pelting’ – through Facebook.
 
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Mate ! Resolution or no resolution.
In 20 years at the most , India will be a part of the UN security council. The veto power that would come with it will render any previous resolutions meaningless. OK ! even without that , does Pakistan have any means , any at all of forcing India to conduct the plebiscite -- NO !! The only solution to Kashmir my friends is status quo however unpalatable it may be to India or Pakistan !! I don't know whats so hard to realise about that. Even a dumb goat like me can see that.

In India you get a lot many people who realise this simple fact derived through common sense. Hence almost all voices supporting status quo come from India. The problem is Pakistan's ego (an inflated one at that !) , which doesn't let you even consider the cost that both countries will have to pay for any solution other than that. And also, Pakistanis tend to see status quo as , a victory for India. The day you stop thinking with your heart and use your common sense - It will be clear to you too. Sooner or later the day will come. But ask yourself , till then is it necessary to build up the ante so much ,that finally when such a day arrives - Pakistan suffers a bigger blow to her self inflated ego.

Indeed, it has happened once previously , hasn't it ?? (No Offence meant)

The point is
1.Pakistan has no means to force India's hand on Kashmir
2.Any means that Pakistan uses as leverage against India is bound to backfire.
3.The limited leverage Pakistan does have right now is going to diminish further and further in the coming years

HENCE, Status quo is good for Pakistan.

First of all it is not yet clear if the new members shall have veto power or not. Second India is not yet a member of the UNSC so your logic is based on an assumption. What if India does not become a UNSC member?

Also recently India has shown willingness to discuss Kashmir and even a day or two ago Sonia said we have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan. Perhaps you need to settle all your disputes before you sit as a permanent member in the UNSC.

Have you ever wondered why India is discussing Kashmir? One has to pay a price to get some privileges perhaps price India has to pay is to settle the Kashmir issue.
 
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Massive protests in Held Kashmir, seven more killed

* Thousands defy curfew, clash with forces, set govt buildings, vehicles on fire

* Security forces open fire at protesters


SRINAGAR: Indian troops fired live ammunition and tear gas into crowds of anti-India protesters on Monday, killing seven, police said as tens of thousands of people demonstrated across Indian-held Kashmir.

More than 60 protesters and almost 70 government officials were injured as violent clashes erupted between government forces and protesters in dozens of places across the region, as the protesters defied a round-the-clock curfew.

At least two people were killed and another three wounded when government forces fired to disperse protesters blocking a highway in Sangam, a village south of Srinagar, said a police officer on condition of anonymity.

Indian forces also fired on thousands of people holding street protests in the southern town of Kakpora, killing one and wounding five, the officer said.

As the news of the killing reached nearby villages, thousands more took to streets and burned a police station and scores of vehicles parked there, the officer said. In the northern village of Kralpora, protesters set a security bunker on fire and ransacked a counterinsurgency police force camp, the officer said. Troops opened fire, killing one protester and injuring seven others, three critically, he said.

In another police firing incident, one person was killed and another wounded in the southern village of Chawalgam, the officer said.

Protesters also burned a government building and a local intelligence office in Budgam, a town to the west of Srinagar, the region’s main city. Four protesters were wounded there, the officer said.

The other injuries occurred in clashes elsewhere in the region, the officer said. agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 
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