The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

[Xeric]

The transfer of power happened on the basis of British maps of early 20th Century and post 1860 there hadn’t been any major change in geo-political structure of Kashmir. So if one intends to figure out what constituted J&K in 1947, the map of 1908 is more relevant than a map of 1700, if at all you can find one.

Anyway, instead of replying to the rest of your jibber jabber how about I post a map from the cartographic section of UN depicting the entire J & K as on 2005. (I should have done that long time back ) For the original pdf file click here. For the 2009 version, that shows UNMOGIP deployment, click here.

Note:

1. The label ‘Jammu and Kashmir’ is affixed in a way to cover the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir.

2. AJK is not shown separately.

Lolz...

Ok.

The map that you cherry-picked were primarily to show the LoC without any specific relation to the any of the Three Regions (Jammu, the Kashmir valley and Ladakh) and has just given a very cursory reference to (minor) locations.

4. The map completely ignores the Chinese held territories of Aksai Chin and Saksam Valley.

Well gentlemen, this would be THE Faceplam of this thread:

Sir, the maps the you quoted infact have screwed india as it has shown Shaksam Valley as a part of Chine, here's how:

Here's the map that you posted. People please give special attention to the area circled in Red

In this above map, infact the cartographers has INCLUDED Shaksam Vally in China!!

See how....

Have a look at these maps (compare the following 3 maps with the one posted above as if they are placed over each other by matching K-2 in each map):

From google earth:

From google maps:

One from another source:

(Ok, screw the sources) And just compare the maps, i have used K-2 as a reference point so that you can compare all the above 4 maps with ease and see that infact in the first map (the one posted by TP claiming the map has no 'Saksam' is it is still part of TP's J & K) the Valley of Shakasm is shown as an integral part of China!!

TP, you made me show this face-palm not only to yourself but whole of india, sorry guys.

And as for the 'map completely ignores the Chinese held territories of Aksai Chin', dude the map ends at 78 degrees East on its right side and doesn not include the area of Askai Chin, so you, infact this time again has just tried to dick around and distort the facts as usual!

Anywaz, my wild guess on this is that even if the map showed the area East of '78 degree East', they probably have included Askai Chin in China (as they did in case of Shaksam Valley).

Given the Pakistani penchant for making unprotected love with UN resolutions at the slightest hint of opportunity, this should ideally settle the issue of whether GB comes under the UN envisaged plebiscite or not.

First, keeping illicit relations is not permitted in our religion.

Second, the map that you posted itself shows a disclaimer: The boundaries and names shown and the designations used on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations.

These maps were infact 'Mission' Maps and the UN itself hasnt done any vetting of these maps.

So above in view, coupled with the fact that the MAP that YOU posted just gave a cursory reference to the ground details, we can easily conclude that your assertion and the wet dream as quoted above is a BS!

Moreover, even if we screw the disclaimer (as you would probably do) and assume that the map is indeed a map of J & K, then why would the same Website show GB as PART of Pakistan, as shown on this globe from from a map of Pakistan (note the area in circled in Red), see the full map here http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/pakistan.pdf:

Your claim is further put to a shut because if the UN wanted to show GB as not part of Pakistan, it logically would have shown Pakistan as it is in this map taken from an indian website:

3. Pakistan, India and J & K are separately labeled, as in 3 separate entities, without indicating which country controls which part or if J & K is a ‘disputed’ territory. It simply indicates the LoC as per Shimla Agreement and mentions that ‘the final status of J & K has not yet been agreed upon by the parties’. This is a clear indication that UN considers GB to be an integral part of J & K, pending ‘final status’.

Very true less the last sentence as it is just a typical BS from The TP. For an answer on why, re-read the face-palms above.

However, I am pretty sure our soldier boy will manage to amuse us a little bit more.

i hope you were assumed and again, the pleasure was all mine.

 

[Jade]

It is no use arguing over facts. The fact is Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh, ***, Aksai chin, Gilgit-Baltistan, and Shaksgam valley constitute the ‘disputed’ state of Jammu & Kashmir. This is what UN defines the ‘disputed’ state of Jammu & Kashmir to be. Even, Pakistan by keeping Gilgit-Baltistan in a constitutional limbo, and referring it to as Northern Areas instead of a province of Pakistan called Gilgit-Baltistan has tactical admitted it to be a part of ‘disputed’ state of Jammu & Kashmir.

 

[toxic_pus]

Lolz...

Ok.

The map that you cherry-picked were primarily to show the LoC without any specific relation to the any of the Three Regions (Jammu, the Kashmir valley and Ladakh) and has just given a very cursory reference to (minor) locations.

So using a UN map is also a matter of ‘cherry picking’. The rest of it is of course a pathetic attempt to explain away your cognitive dissonance. Given that UN map is referred to by every cartographer, it is not going anywhere, at least for a long time.

Sir, the maps the you quoted infact have screwed india as it has shown Shaksam Valley as a part of Chine, here's how:

Here's the map that you posted. People please give special attention to the area circled in Red
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1558/32544883.png

In this above map, infact the cartographers has INCLUDED Shaksam Vally in China!!

See how....

Have a look at these maps (compare the following 3 maps with the one posted above as if they are placed over each other by matching K-2 in each map):

From google earth:
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2828/googlev.png



From google maps:
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8641/googlemapc.png


One from another source:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5843/jammukashmirandladakh1.jpg


(Ok, screw the sources) And just compare the maps, i have used K-2 as a reference point so that you can compare all the above 4 maps with ease and see that infact in the first map (the one posted by TP claiming the map has no 'Saksam' is it is still part of TP's J & K) the Valley of Shakasm is shown as an integral part of China!!

Ergo, ‘(t)he map completely ignores the Chinese held territories of Aksai Chin and Saksam Valley’

Maybe if you pay attention and actually make an attempt to comprehend what is being said, you will save yourself a lot of sweat, and us, a lot of bandwidth.

And as for the 'map completely ignores the Chinese held territories of Aksai Chin', dude the map ends at 78 degrees East on its right side and doesn not include the area of Askai Chin, so you, infact this time again has just tried to dick around and distort the facts as usual!

Anywaz, my wild guess on this is that even if the map showed the area East of '78 degree East', they probably have included Askai Chin in China (as they did in case of Shaksam Valley).

You might want to quit guesstimating. In the South Asia map, Kashmir is shown thus:

Note how Aksai Chin is not labeled. Note how it is not indicated if it is part of India or part of China. It merely draws the boundaries as claimed by both the countries (impressive!), making it appear as an entirely separate entity, and leaving the rest to imagination. And yet, in the map that specifically intends to show J & K, UN intentionally leaves this portion out, while being crystal clear in depicting the rest of J & K as neither a part of Pakistan nor of India. That is an amazing legal jugglery to avoid controversy.

Saksam couldn’t be avoided because it sits smack in the middle in a way that it can’t be cropped out. In any case, Article 6 of Sino-Pakistan Frontier Agreement 1963, signed ex parte, makes the transfer provisional not permanent.

Second, the map that you posted itself shows a disclaimer: The boundaries and names shown and the designations used on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations.

These maps were infact 'Mission' Maps and the UN itself hasnt done any vetting of these maps.

So above in view, coupled with the fact that the MAP that YOU posted just gave a cursory reference to the ground details, we can easily conclude that your assertion and the wet dream as quoted above is a BS!

That disclaimer is legal requirement for any document prepared by a third party. All maps prepared by UN carry this disclaimer. Don’t loose sleep on it.

The point, which you have conveniently missed, however is that, even UN maps show GB as part of J & K, just like the colonial maps of early 20th Century. Details are irrelevant since Gilgit, Baltistan, Hunza can easily be made out from the map. Funny part is that the map completely disregards the existence of AJK and doesn't even give any indication where that Shangri La exists.

Moreover, even if we screw the disclaimer (as you would probably do) and assume that the map is indeed a map of J & K, then why would the same Website show GB as PART of Pakistan, as shown on this globe from from a map of Pakistan (note the area in circled in Red), see the full map here http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/pakistan.pdf:
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6739/captureufd.png
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/595/picture11k.jpg

And yet, when the map is shown in detail, it delimits entire J & K. Even when a map shows South Asia, it delimits J & K.

Pakistan:

South Asia:

The teeny-tiny shaded portion, which you have clung on to with all your might, is merely to give an idea of Pakistan controlled area in the region. Again don't sweat.

Your claim is further put to a shut because if the UN wanted to show GB as not part of Pakistan, it logically would have shown Pakistan as it is in this map taken from an indian website:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/803/pakistanmap7481906.jpg

Actually it does show GB as not a part of Pakistan, first in the J&K map itself, second in the Pakistan map, third in the South Asia map. UN is pretty consistent there.

Very true less the last sentence as it is just a typical BS from The TP. For an answer on why, re-read the face-palms above.

In which case UN is also BSing. After having labeled the entire region of GB as J & K, consistently in J & K map, Pakistan map and South Asia map, why else would they provide the following caveat, in all those maps?

i hope you were assumed and again, the pleasure was all mine.

Can't thank enough for the entertainment. Keep 'em coming.

BTW, what of this:

An addendum to my previous reply

Article 6 of Sino-Pakistan Frontier Agreement, 1963 (by virtue of which Pakistan gifted Saksam Valley to Chin) states:

The two parties have agreed that after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the Government of the People’s Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article Two of the present agreement, so as to sign a formal boundary treaty to replace the present agreement, provided that in the event of the sovereign authority being Pakistan, the provisions of the present agreement and of the aforesaid protocol shall be maintained in the formal boundary treaty to be signed between the People’s Republic of China and Pakistan.​

The wording of this article clearly indicates that Pakistan envisages a possibility of change in possession of GB and in the event the 'sovereignty' passes to India after 'settlement of the Kashmir dispute', the current agreement shall lapse and new negotiations with China would have to be reopened. This means Pakistan recognizes, that it has no claim to 'sovereignty' over land from which Saksam Valley had been carved out, and is in fact subject to 'settlement' along with 'settlement of Kashmir dispute'.

Of course, the agreement is null and void, for being ex parte, but it does reflect Pakistan's position on GB, circa 1963.

Game, set and match....

PS: Can you please reduce the image size while posting inline.

 

[toxic_pus]

On another note, here is a view of another Pakistani - a sane and rational one this time around.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

‘Gilgit has remained part of Kashmir’


By Saalim Salam Ansari


This is in response to Mr Aziz Ali Dad’s article titled “The case of Gilgit-Baltistan is different” (Encounter, January 28) in which he argued that the Northern Areas are not part of Jammu and Kashmir state. I do not agree with him.

The fact remains that under the Amritsars Treaty executed in 1846 between Maharaja Gulab Singh and the British authorities, as provided in the Article 1 of the treaty, the “British Government transferred and made over for ever in independent possession to Maharaja Gulab Singh and the heirs male of his body all the hilly or mountainous country with its dependencies situated to the eastward of the River Indus and the westward of the River Ravi including Chamba and excluding Lahul, being part of the territories ceded to under the provisions of the Article IV of the Treaty of Lahore, dated 9th March, 1846”.

According to Article 3, this transfer was made “upon a consideration of 7,500,000 Nanak Shahies rupees”. In other words, the valley of Kashmir along with all hilly, mountainous territories was sold to the Maharaja and the British also surrendered their rights from the Northern Areas in favour of him.

No word of “rent” or “lease” was used in the Amritsar Treaty. As far as the appointment of a British political agent at Gilgit is concerned, one may note that his appointment was for the whole territory of Northern Areas which was partly (only an area of about 1300 sq. miles) leased by the Maharaja by virtue of a lease agreement made on April 3, 1935.

The appointment of a British Political Agent at Gilgit and/or of a British Resident Commissioner at Srinagar, the capital, did not affect the status of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir. The Political Agent in Gilgit was called Assistant Resident and was subordinate to the British Resident stationed at Srinagar.

According to the lease agreement, the sovereignty was kept in favour of the Maharaja Hari Singh Dogra and the lease period was for 60 years, not 100 years.

The flag of the Maharaja was kept raised throughout the lease period at Gilgit agency (being a leased area). Even birthdays of the Maharaja were officially celebrated throughout the Northern Areas including Gilgit agency.

After the announcement of the June 3 Partition Plan the lease agreement was suspended by the both parties and on July 31, 1947 the lease was again regained by the Maharaja Hari Singh Dogra and Brigadier Ghansara Singh was appointed governor of Gilgit. Brig. Singh later wrote a book “Gilgit before 1947”.

The local Rajas, Mirs, chieftains were in fact local jagirdars and were subjects of the Maharaja of Kashmir and they were never given the status of princely states. They use to give gold, horses and money as khiraj and used to appear in the official functions as “darbaries” before the Maharaja at Srinagar and were granted sanads. Poonch and other Jagirs were situated within the territory of princely state of Jammu and Kashmir.

It is a matter of historical record that a statute regarding the Gilgit Scouts under the name and style of Gilgit Scouts Law (Act No XVI) of 2004 Bakrami Calendar was promulgated by the Maharaja.

The citizens of Northern Areas were prosecuted and tried under the Rambhir Panel Code (R.P.C) which was promulgated by Maharaja Rambhir Singh of Jammu and Kashmir State.

As far as the formation of an “Islamic Republic of Gilgit” in 1947 is concerned it was not recognized by anybody, not even by the government of Pakistan. The latter, however, entered into what came to be known as Karachi Agreement on April 28, 1951 with the government of Azad Kashmir. Under this agreement, the affairs of Northern Areas (Gilgit and Baltistan) relating to defence, foreign affairs, etc., of the government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir state were given to the government of Pakistan by the former on a temporary basis.

Under Article 6 of the ‘Sinkiang Agreement’ dated March 2, 1963 executed between China and Pakistan, the Northern Areas are a disputed territory and this agreement is subject to a solution of the dispute of Kashmir. Pakistan government’s stand is that the area of the Jammu and Kashmir State, (the largest one among about 584 princely states of the subcontinent) is 84,471 square miles. It consists of (a) Valley of Kashmir — 8,539 square miles (b) Ladakh — 35,554 square miles (c) Gilgit and Baltistan (or Shumali Wazarat) — 28,000 square miles, and (d) Jammu — 12,378 square miles.

If the area of Gilgit and Baltistan (Northern Areas) is not included in the disputed state, then its total area comes to 56,000 square miles. But the Pakistan government, in the last 50 years of the dispute over the Kashmir state, never claimed that the disputes areas come to 56,000 square miles but that these were 84,000 square miles which include Gilgit and Baltistan.

According to the maps issued by the Survey of Pakistan or printed by the Oxford Atlas/World Atlas Bartholomew, 1985, Historical Atlas of World, 1965 (USA), and the Encyclopaedia Britannica as well as in the official maps of World Bank, UNO, the area of Gilgit and Baltistan has been part of the Jammu and Kashmir state during the Mughal, Afghans, Sikhs, Dogra regimes.

In 1934, the Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly (Parjha Sabha) as constituted by Maharaja Hari Singh included representation of the Northern Areas. The members from the Northern Areas were Raja Fateh Ali Khan of Skardu, Mr Ahmed Ali Khan of Kargil, Raja Raza Ahmed of Gilgit Wazarat and Muhammad Jawwad Ansari of Shumali Wazarat. In 1935, Gilgit and Baltistan were given by Maharaja of Kashmir to the British on lease for 12 years and on its expiry these areas were returned to the Maharaja.

According to the judgments, PLD 1993 AJK Page 1, and PLD 1995 AJK-SC page-1, in the case of Malik Mohammad Maskeen vs. Government of Pakistan and others, delivered by Superior Courts of the Azad Kashmir, it was held that “the Northern Areas are part and parcel of the Jammu and Kashmir.” Hence, these areas are legally and historically a part of the Jammu and Kashmir State and fall within the “disputed territory” like other parts of the state.

Besides, as per Article 1 of the Constitution of Pakistan, 1973. Northern Areas (Gilgit and Baltistan) do not fall within the territorial limits of Pakistan. Sub-article (2), of Article 1 of the 1973 Constitution describes and defines the territorial limits of Pakistan as under: “(a) the provinces of Balochistan, the North-West Frontier, the Punjab and Sindh; (b) the Islamabad capital territory; (c) the Federally Administered Tribal Area; and (d) such states and territories as are or may be included in Pakistan, whether by accession or otherwise.”

On August 14, 1947, Gilgit and Baltistan were part of the state and Brig. Ginshara Singh, a cousin of Maharaja Hari Singh Dogra, ruler of the state, was governor of the province of Ladakh, Gilgit and Baltistan. However, later in the same year, the people of Gilgit and Baltistan formed a liberation army and liberated their area from the Dogra rule and arrested Brig Ghinsar Singh.

One may recall that Brig (retd) Takhar Rehmat Khan, father of Air Marshal (retd.) M. Asghar Khan, had also served as governor of the province of Gilgit and Baltistan. He was appointed to this post by Maharaja Hari Singh Dogra.

So, as per Article 257 of the 1973 Constitution, the future of Jammu and Kashmir including Gilgit and Baltistan will be determined according to the wishes of their people. This article says: “When the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir decide to accede to Pakistan, the relationship between Pakistan and that State shall be determined in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State.”

Nagar and Hunza were not princely states on August 14, 1947, but, as per historical record, these were the Jagirs, situated within the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, of “Shumali Wazarat” or “Gilgit Wazarat”. According to June 3 partition plan, only princely states had the right to accede to either India or Pakistan or to maintain their independent status. This right could not be exercised by the Jagirs.

However, an appropriate solution of the problem of the status of the Northern Areas lies in making them a part of Azad Kashmir and giving representation to their people in the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Assembly on the basis of population.

The writer is a Karachi-based lawyer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

RAW agent?

Btw, here is Article 1 of Pakistani Constitution:

The Republic and its territories

(1) Pakistan shall be a Federal Republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as Pakistan.
(2) The territories of Pakistan shall comprise :-

(a) the Provinces of Baluchistan, the North-West Frontier, the Punjab and Sind;
(b) the Islamabad Capital Territory, hereinafter referred to as the Federal Capital;
(c) Federally Administered Tribal Areas; and
(d) such States and territories as are or may be included in Pakistan, whether by accession or otherwise.​

(3) [Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament)] may by law admit into the Federation new States or areas on such terms and conditions as it thinks fit.]​

​

And here is Article 257:

When the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir decide to accede to Pakistan, the relationship between Pakistan and the State shall be determined in accordance with the wishes of the people of that State.

So much for GB being part of Pakistan.

 

[Xeric]

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[toxic_pus]

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I'll see your single facepalm, and raise you a triple

 

[gaurish]

What is the point in comparing with the US Army? Dont you want your own policies and standards that comprehensively protect your own citizens? The point is the US Army and/or police cannot behave like the Indian Army/Police do within the US. The constitutional protections including things such as Miranda rights are there. The operative sentence is how is YOUR Army or Police behaving with your OWN citizens not those of other countries. Are the rights of Indian Citizens being trampled upon and do they have a forum to correct those violations? These are the questions you should be asking and not comparing yourself to what the US or the Russians or Chinese did or did not do.

Wow .. you seem to point out exception that your army has the right to behave anyhow with other countries citizen? if one is not American citizen he is not human? Thanks u told it yourself...

How many times have u visited our country to see the torture of our police on our own citizens? i live here daily... so u think u have better experience than me?

Odd incidents happen everywhere in the world.. Human rights are violated all over the world

Dont bring your crap propaganda here

 

[RollingStones]

Wow .. you seem to point out exception that your army has the right to behave anyhow with other countries citizen? if one is not American citizen he is not human? Thanks u told it yourself...

How many times have u visited our country to see the torture of our police on our own citizens? i live here daily... so u think u have better experience than me?

Odd incidents happen everywhere in the world.. Human rights are violated all over the world

Dont bring your crap propaganda here

You are missing the point and there is absolutely no need to be defensive. The point is NOT to compare but to evolve policies that will ABSOLUTELY (as in NOT relatively) enforce civil liberties and rights in India. It is ridiculous and disingenuous to even suggest that there are violations inside the US anywhere near the scale of what happens in India. Indian police have been proved to be abusive and insensitive in several well researched reports by Human Rights organizations around the world, including local Indian ones. To cast aside all that and make tenuous statements is doing a grave injustice to victims of HR abuses in India. For instance, I am deeply anguished by the recent Bhopal gas tragedy verdict. The Indian justice system has miserably failed by delivering a much delayed verdict and that too with minimal punishment. You cannot see such miserable justice delivered in the US, if you want to compare. I am asking you again: these are your own people, dont you feel the need to safeguard their rights and liberties, without comparing to what is going on in rest of the world? Not to be patronizing, but take some time to ponder!

 

[harish]

You are missing the point and there is absolutely no need to be defensive. The point is NOT to compare but to evolve policies that will ABSOLUTELY (as in NOT relatively) enforce civil liberties and rights in India. It is ridiculous and disingenuous to even suggest that there are violations inside the US anywhere near the scale of what happens in India. Indian police have been proved to be abusive and insensitive in several well researched reports by Human Rights organizations around the world, including local Indian ones. To cast aside all that and make tenuous statements is doing a grave injustice to victims of HR abuses in India. For instance, I am deeply anguished by the recent Bhopal gas tragedy verdict. The Indian justice system has miserably failed by delivering a much delayed verdict and that too with minimal punishment. You cannot see such miserable justice delivered in the US, if you want to compare. I am asking you again: these are your own people, dont you feel the need to safeguard their rights and liberties, without comparing to what is going on in rest of the world? Not to be patronizing, but take some time to ponder!

Please stop derailing the thread with your superior pontificating on issues not remotely related to Kashmir. Please stop lecturing us on human rights. As an American whose ancestors wiped out an entire people to set up home on someone else's land because your own people had cast you out as the dregs of society from mainland Europe, you have absolutely no social moral or ethical standing to do so. And you are an extremely poor example of a human being for pulling the Bhopal tragedy into this, again as an American to an Indian. Your people are crying bloody murder today when BP's oil is killing your pelicans and dolphins. And asking BP for more money per pelican and dolphin killed than your American Union Carbide deemed fit to pay for every Indian who perished in Bhopal, leave aside an entire generation (if not more) horribly mutilated and disabled. Disgusting, despicable, inhumane, hypocritical, immoral, arrogant, take your pick. You are more than all of those combined, and then some sir. I have nothing against America or Americans in general, but you are doing a piss poor job of representing your country here, flying the stars and stripes, and regurgitating bs.

 

[RollingStones]

Please stop derailing the thread with your superior pontificating on issues not remotely related to Kashmir. Please stop lecturing us on human rights. As an American whose ancestors wiped out an entire people to set up home on someone else's land because your own people had cast you out as the dregs of society from mainland Europe, you have absolutely no social moral or ethical standing to do so. And you are an extremely poor example of a human being for pulling the Bhopal tragedy into this, again as an American to an Indian. Your people are crying bloody murder today when BP's oil is killing your pelicans and dolphins. And asking BP for more money per pelican and dolphin killed than your American Union Carbide deemed fit to pay for every Indian who perished in Bhopal, leave aside an entire generation (if not more) horribly mutilated and disabled. Disgusting, despicable, inhumane, hypocritical, immoral, arrogant, take your pick. You are more than all of those combined, and then some sir. I have nothing against America or Americans in general, but you are doing a piss poor job of representing your country here, flying the stars and stripes, and regurgitating bs.

I am not sure what you have been reading or hearing about America in India, but you probably have no idea about real American people, their ingenuity and hard work, which brought America to where it is today. You need to learn more about real America. Two or three things:there is no point being defensive, there is absolutely no reason to compare yourself against any other country on HR abuse issues (evolve your own absolute standards for implementation and impress the world), and the BP is a case in point (BP is being made to pay justly for all the damages that they have caused; can we say the same of Bhopal?).

The point is the Indian police do indulge in excessive HR abuses, as pointed out by various international and local Indian organizations. And I am still not sure what American actions vis-a-vis its own HR situation has got anything to do with how HR abuses are prevented or not in India?? And, I do not see any need for comparison at all. Bill of rights for citizens are absolute rights in any country and does NOT depend on the Bill of Rights of citizens in other countries. You cannot cite America or any other country to have a poor HR abuse prevention policy. It has got to be an absolute constitutional standard, measurable by its own standing. Why are you comparing with America? (Also, if you were by any chance talking about how whites prevailed against native Americans, I think you've been reading a lot of bull **** somewhere - perhaps a well researched reading on American history would help. Ignorance is NOT bliss in this case!)

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

rite now we have it....and i dont see it coming to pakistan in the near (or far) future....

our culture is radically different. You fear death as much as we don't. Look at events unfolding and tell me, where is your ''time''

you are wasting time on failed diplomatic initiatives, meanwhile you have hostile neighbours all around you and it's all your own making.

Thats wat i said...RAW is the cause of all ur ills...right from water,bombblasts right to wen ur neighbours undies are stolen..

re-read my post and avoid emotional outbursts

Should i start with the name of a certain animal starting with P..?

How about ''Pigeon''? You arrested one 2 weeks ago, is he providing valuable inteligence?

yeah yeah...one of a kind charity group whose leader calls for armed jihad against another country for an ill that is of their own making.
Serioulsy enuff jokes for today..

a.) he doesnt have widespread support among the policy makers and parliamentary elite

b.) most of the fighting in Kashmir is purely Kashmiri local phenonmenon. You give Pakistan too much credit for your miseries in indian occupied Kashmir

c.) it was Christians and Pakistani hindus who protested and were shouting slogans against hindustan when india demanded UN censure of the group Jam'at ud-Dawa

The feeling is mutual...thank god u dont reside in Hindustan.

Forget what the headlines tell you. Pakistan is a free country, a bit too free in my opinion. My religion condemns any classification of people into ranks or caste, therefore yes I reiterate:

Thank God.

Actually, none of my ancestors hailed from former hindustan and I take huge pride on this fact. We didnt see the bloodshed and violence the way our Punjabi and Sindhi brothers/sisters did.

u should be ashamed for being so honest in this regard..

Truth fears no questions

u forgot abt the toilets mate.....

a Morroccan friend of mine was ranting and raving about delhi airport bathroom condition. Enough talk of toilets, ''mate''

Ok so y dont u say to americans..."we dont need ur aid" and we r not going to fight ur war..

better federal/local governance, improved infrastructure -especially in industrial/rural areas, and a more favourable security environment are worth much more to us (and more useful) than cheques handed out that end up in the hand of corrupt civilan bureaucrats

the war was initially not ours, it was in Afghanistan. But as Afghanistan is our conjoined twin, if things are bad there; things will be bad here. Historically, this is the case.

We are fighting the war on our own terms. NATO is fighting theirs on their own. Consultations are made between both sides, but the realities on both sides are different. They are 2 different wars, with 2 different enemies.

We dont need ur wishes on that as we r not going in that path.

couldnt anyways....unless you want another Gujraty type state genoicde taking place.

To u who covets their land it doesnt...but to them it matters.
We r pumping in more economy and infrastructure and in another generation or two u ll see the difference.Ok y two generations,wen that old man Geelani dies everything will be normal..Eagerly waiting for that day

that's what I say. No matter how much you ''pump'' the wells seems to be drying. You cant bribe existentialists and freedom fighters (some may be corruptible of course)

We dont need ur permissions on that mate.We ll do wat we think is good for our country and couldn care for u less.

Agha you are caring for us actually because for every latthi-charge, it further alienates/alienated occupied Kashmiris . Put yourself in their shoes, how would you feel to be under inhumane occupation?

So u as a Pakistani believe ToI..??

ToI editorials have me believed that india still hasnt gotten over its obcession over Pakistan. But the truth is, a lot of their news stories are just copied verbatim from other news sources - like RTT and PTI.

i read newspapers from all countries

Shall i give u a ToI article that says Pakistan is the epicentre of World terrorism..Would u believe that too...

I opine that the Afghan-Pakistan border is indeed the most dangerous part of the world. In all honesty, I would even to this day feel a lot safer in Kohat or Bannu than I would in sh*tholes like Anacostia, Washington DC or parts of Detroit (among other world cities). But I come from a school of thought where I could get killed crossing the street 8 hours from now. I could die in my sleep before I damn knew what happened. Whatever happens, happens. I don't really care, we put our faith in God and our destiny.

Things could get worse before they get better. But I have a feeling that our country is maturing in many ways, and the problem will be solved over time. Security and development go hand in hand. Your naxal affected areas are underdeveloped and neglected, that is why 1/3 of india could prove to be an even more dangerous part of the world; especially since a lot of your sensitive nuclear sites are in those ''affected areas''

Our security forces are doing their best to fight the terrorists; more so the anti-Pakistan terrorists rather than the ''global jihadist terrorists'' like Al Qaeda.


(that was the job of the americans in 2001 till now, you can talk to them about their achievements)

A very very special thank u for bringing to my notice wat the Kashmiris really want..They want jobs,economic development,less corruption and for all these India is in a much much better position to provide them than pakistan.

the indicators were less in your favour. Kashmiris in Pakistan have their own representation, and greater autonomy. We see much fewer problems on our side, whereas iOK makes the news on almost a weekly basis -not for the right reasons as far as hindustan is concerned

We have already started that and as i said just wait one or two generations..everything will be fine.

everything would have been fine from the beginning if you allowed the Kashmiris their existential right to self-determination, rather than being greedy and rather erratic in your behaviour [towards them, and I might add, your neighbours]

Similarly we take action against those whom we consider anti-india elements.Nothing wrong i suppose.

take action against Shiv Sena, ULFA and the naxals. Those are your biggest internal threats; especially the latter group --as per your own Prime Minister

Do u want me to go down to the level of mocking ur security forces who were killed at the hands of the rag-tag taliban armed with just AKs and RPGs...?

our foot soldiers are doing a fantastic job. Obviously casualties will take place. But for every martyr of the soil, a new tree grows; the roses never rot; their bodies never decompose.

And it furthers our resolve. Yes we've lost troops. look how many men our enemy has lost as well.

In some sort of way or another, I don't really respect the taleban who are fighting Pakistan. But I ''appreciate'' that they are good fighters, and a determined enemy. If only they uniformed themselves rather than hide among local peaceful tribesmen. Time will tell who gains the upper hand. And Pakistan is commended for its role.

yup..as some wise man once said....Ignorance is bliss....Keep Laughing.

i will keep laughing. It's better than sulking, finger-pointing and diffusing responsibility!

that is all you hindustanys are good for....

 

[Jade]

our culture is radically different. You fear death as much as we don't. Look at events unfolding and tell me, where is your ''time''

Your culture may be radically different from us. There is no denying it; However, please remove your misconception that we fear death as much as you don’t. Nothing is further from the truth. Try us and we would become half humans. It is easy for a person like you sitting before your computer to talk about the war and death. Ask any solider,they are not easy.

This is what one of your own soldier's experiences during Kargil war.

Peaks and Troughs

Subedar Tahir Jan spent five months on various Indian ridges in Kargil. His last few weeks, till July 6, were at Tiger Hill when he and a few of his colleagues, who survived, abandoned it in the darkness of the night. Here is his eyewitness account:

Subedar Tahir Jan


I left Gilgit for Kargil in February. The task was specific. We were supposed to build bunkers at the Indian ridges across the LoC. In winter, the Indians usually abandon these posts.

We were given white tents, snow-shielding uniforms and other accessories. It was a huge operation. All the units of the nli were sent to the ridges. In the early days it was a gigantic task—to trek through several feet of snow, climb the ridges and build bunkers.

Till April, nobody from the Indian side detected our presence. There was some air patrolling, but our camouflage was so good that their air-surveillance failed to detect our presence.

And then one day we saw them coming towards us from the plains below. We waited for them to come near us. Then we mowed all of them down. The Kargil war had begun. At that time, our main task was on dumping the ammunition. We paid less attention to food which we later regretted.

We knew those were not our ridges. But we were about to teach India a lesson. Avenging the insult which we had been through at Siachen.

In the beginning, we had the upper hand. What happened there in the next few weeks was horrifying. The Indians went mad. Their guns rained on us. And from below there was this constant stream of men. They climbed the mountains like ants.

The last few days were like mad. I don't remember having even a few seconds to chat

Then the situation started changing. We were running out of ammunition. The food too was disappearing fast. There were severe delays in the supplies, which were cut off by the constant barrage of the Bofors.

We were at least 35 km inside India. On the adjoining hills, there were incidents when some of my colleagues threw stones and boulders on the Indians coming from below. They had run out of ammunition.

I still can't forget several of my colleagues who got injured while fighting the Indians. We knew we could not rescue them or shift them to any hospital. Everything was cut off. We left them there in the night promising to take them home in the morning. But we knew that they wouldn't be able to survive the night.

The plight of our wounded colleagues strengthened the resolve of those of us at Tiger and nearby ridges who had somehow survived the fighting. We were clear that we were left with no other option but to die.

The gorges and nullahs near us were filled with the stench of death. We didn't even have time to give our colleagues a proper burial. We would just recite a kalma and bury our dead in the snow. We couldn't do anything else.

And then came the withdrawal orders. Since we were very deep within India, we received these orders very late. By this time Lalik Jan, who was injured on the Tiger Hill, asked the others to leave. The same happened on other ridges. Col Sher Khan died in an attack on the Indians hiding behind boulders at one of the ridges. He had no other option.

Because he knew that if he didn't charge at them first, the Indians would attack him at night.

Being a senior soldier, I had to carry out the withdrawal orders. But the young soldiers who had already seen the deaths of many of their colleagues were angry. They kept crying. They didn't want to leave those ridges. In fact, they were willing to die fighting with stones.

It took me a hard time to convince them, to remind them that they didn't have enough ammunition.

We left those ridges with a heavy heart. All of us were crying. But the withdrawal wasn't easy. We were completely cut off from our side. So we left the ridges during the night. And for the next few nights we maintained this routine—travelling only during the night and hiding during the day.

But before climbing down we destroyed the weapons which we knew we couldn't carry. There was chaos and panic everywhere.

This short journey back to Pakistan, however, was worse than fighting on the ridges. Without food and water, we lost several of our colleagues to the Indian guns. In fact, the ones who managed to reach Pakistan were the luckiest ones

 

[KS]

our culture is radically different. You fear death as much as we don't. Look at events unfolding and tell me, where is your ''time''

Try me........u ll be surprised like hell.

you are wasting time on failed diplomatic initiatives, meanwhile you have hostile neighbours all around you and it's all your own making.

Shall i show u the mirror......Look around ...U have India and Afganistan(atleast now) as ur enemies.....Pot calls the kettle black.

BTW pls dont call B'Desh,SL,Bhutan and Nepal our enemies.....It shows ur ignorance.

How about ''Pigeon''? You arrested one 2 weeks ago, is he providing valuable inteligence?

Haha..u know wat i meant...so im not going into it further.

a.) he doesnt have widespread support among the policy makers and parliamentary elite

Oh is it..?thats y he s freely making speeches urging armed terrorism against India and none condemns him...Lol thats news to me..

b.) most of the fighting in Kashmir is purely Kashmiri local phenonmenon. You give Pakistan too much credit for your miseries in indian occupied Kashmir

Read this and enlighten urself...Link

Forget what the headlines tell you. Pakistan is a free country, a bit too free in my opinion. My religion condemns any classification of people into ranks or caste, therefore yes I reiterate:

No one is cursing ur religion...everyone is speaking abt the few idiots who have hijacked ur beautiful religion for their own bigoted cause.

Thank God.

Actually, none of my ancestors hailed from former hindustan and I take huge pride on this fact. We didnt see the bloodshed and violence the way our Punjabi and Sindhi brothers/sisters did.

My reply stands...Thank god..ur not there in my country.

Truth fears no questions

Mayb no questions...but there is certain amount of shame associated with it.

better federal/local governance, improved infrastructure -especially in industrial/rural areas, and a more favourable security environment are worth much more to us (and more useful) than cheques handed out that end up in the hand of corrupt civilan bureaucrats

the war was initially not ours, it was in Afghanistan. But as Afghanistan is our conjoined twin, if things are bad there; things will be bad here. Historically, this is the case.

We are fighting the war on our own terms. NATO is fighting theirs on their own. Consultations are made between both sides, but the realities on both sides are different. They are 2 different wars, with 2 different enemies.

On ur own terms...?!?! so y dont u ask the CIA to stop the drone attacks that explicitly violates the sovereignity of Pakistan.
And please dont BS me abt how its the ISI thats operating the drones and wat not.
Frankly the US doesnt give a dime as to wat u think.....US thinks,Pakistan does.

couldnt anyways....unless you want another Gujraty type state genoicde taking place.

FYI thats an internal matter of India and we know how to solve it...unless u want me to start with Balochistan.

that's what I say. No matter how much you ''pump'' the wells seems to be drying. You cant bribe existentialists and freedom fighters (some may be corruptible of course)

Time will say.....But surely Geelani's death will be a catalyst for that.

Agha you are caring for us actually because for every latthi-charge, it further alienates/alienated occupied Kashmiris . Put yourself in their shoes, how would you feel to be under inhumane occupation?

There is no un-humane occupation in Kashmir.....Strikes occur evrywere and invaryingly Indian police use Lathis on them...does that mean un-humane occupation..?

So wat u think of this..? Link

ToI editorials have me believed that india still hasnt gotten over its obcession over Pakistan. But the truth is, a lot of their news stories are just copied verbatim from other news sources - like RTT and PTI.

i read newspapers from all countries

and ur point is..?

Things could get worse before they get better. But I have a feeling that our country is maturing in many ways, and the problem will be solved over time. Security and development go hand in hand. Your naxal affected areas are underdeveloped and neglected, that is why 1/3 of india could prove to be an even more dangerous part of the world; especially since a lot of your sensitive nuclear sites are in those ''affected areas''

Thax for ur concern..but that is not happening...Operation Green Hunt is well underway and the recent acts of the Maoists targetting the civilians only shows their desperation and the heat they r feeling.
And dont worry soon they ll be history.

And moreover even if they capture the nukes dont worry they r not gonna use against Pakistan..rather they lll use against India only.

Our security forces are doing their best to fight the terrorists; more
so the anti-Pakistan terrorists rather than the ''global jihadist terrorists'' like Al Qaeda.


(that was the job of the americans in 2001 till now, you can talk to them about their achievements)

No one is belittling ur soldiers..I respect soldiers whomever they r...But I exopect the same courtesy from everyone .My response was for u bringing in the soldiers dying due to Maoist attacks.

the indicators were less in your favour. Kashmiris in Pakistan have their own representation, and greater autonomy. We see much fewer problems on our side, whereas iOK makes the news on almost a weekly basis -not for the right reasons as far as hindustan is concerned

Yeah thats because we dont entertain our puppets demanding freedom in P-O-K or we dont send in proxies labelling them freedom fighters to take away P-O-K or NA.

everything would have been fine from the beginning if you allowed the Kashmiris their existential right to self-determination, rather than being greedy and rather erratic in your behaviour [towards them, and I might add, your neighbours]

We have never been erratic....Always consistent in our position that sovereignity/territorial integrity is never under discussion.
BTW if one was erratic it was rather Pakistan which first demanded UNSC resolutions,then an armed solution (1965),then again peaceful means,then again armed struggle (terrorism),again a peace initiative (Lahore bus),then armed attempt (Kargil) and so on......

take action against Shiv Sena, ULFA and the naxals. Those are your biggest internal threats; especially the latter group --as per your own Prime Minister

Shiv sena..they were never an internal threat...they are a nationalistic party.
And BTW since u mentioned Internal threats..its none of ur concern.

our foot soldiers are doing a fantastic job. Obviously casualties will take place. But for every martyr of the soil, a new tree grows; the roses never rot; their bodies never decompose.

And it furthers our resolve. Yes we've lost troops. look how many men our enemy has lost as well.

In some sort of way or another, I don't really respect the taleban who are fighting Pakistan. But I ''appreciate'' that they are good fighters, and a determined enemy. If only they uniformed themselves rather than hide among local peaceful tribesmen. Time will tell who gains the upper hand. And Pakistan is commended for its role.

Same is true for India in case of Maoists.Hope u got the answer.

i will keep laughing. It's better than sulking, finger-pointing and diffusing responsibility!

that is all you hindustanys are good for....

As long as ur just laughing in front of ur PC...who in the holy world cares...

 

[Xeric]

@Jade
Being a soldier myself i dont grade my opponent as a coward or stupid, coz they are not. Levels of bravery can differ as bravery is not a constant, surprisingly it can be altered with the influences of external factors - motivation, aim, gains, religion, even alcohol.

i have seen more indians as belligerents then anyone here, so no one knows them better then me. i wont go into the details but then terming them flat cowards is not right, though people can differ.


And Jade, the source to your article is indian outlook or some shyt like BR? Not guud

And BTW if you were trying to prove indian bravery by this article, sorry to break your bubble, but you failed.

 

[Xeric]

unless u want me to start with Balochistan.

Please do so if you want me to make you look like a stupid!