The future of air warfare: Bayraktar KIZILELMA

[TheSolution]

Turkey's defence industry maturating has truly been a marvel to witness. Most important is that they've built a self-sustaining ecosystem of so many moving parts. Doesn't rely on the whim of a single person making the right decisions.

This should be a role model for Pakistan to follow.

Must watch documentary showing the level of effort and after-work hours put in to make it work:

 

[Ali_Baba]

>> nice.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659382142454071296

The recipe for taking back the IOK....

 

[LeGenD]

Chances are there PAF will get these birds
But with so many technologies at play here it will easily get beyond $40M per unit and with twin engine configuration beyond 50M

So only in limited numbers.
Since its actually new concept we should wait until it gets matured (may be PAF will buy Kizilelma-B) Even then it will need continuous updates especially in software domain.

@arslank03
@LeGenD i wonder why US/China/Israel are not going for standalone unmanned concepts?
All their Sixth Generation fighters are still manned having Loyal Wingmans with Limited autonomous capability.

May be b/c they don't want to risk a Jamming/EW surprise from their technologically powerful enemy.

Dear, if (or when) these machines become self-aware, us poor things will be in loads of trouble. It is better to have humans-in-the-loop.

Nobody would like to create Skynet and be on the receiving end of it... right?

 

[TheSolution]

Let's hope Pakistan can open its own domestic production lines for TFX and Kizilelma

 

[ThunderCat]

Let's hope Pakistan can open its own domestic production lines for TFX and Kizilelma

These drones need to be equipped with counter jamming equipment. Otherwise they'll be a failure.

 

[arslank03]

These drones need to be equipped with counter jamming equipment. Otherwise they'll be a failure.

im sure the designers have thought of methods to ensure reliability lol

 

[TheSolution]

These drones need to be equipped with counter jamming equipment. Otherwise they'll be a failure.

That's one of the biggest critiques of UCAVs right now so there is definitely a lot of thought going into that

 

[hyperman]

>> nice.

That guy in the video doesn't seem to know wtf he is talking about. I keep hearing this nonsense from these guys that the TB2 is some cheap drone, its not particularly sophisticated, or that its "low flying" and doesn't compare to drones like the Predator, when in many ways it outperforms the Predator drone. a lot of these people that write this casual articles or make these videos genuinely fail at basic research, like is it that hard to read the wikipedia page or the manufacturer's website to get the performance stats?

Not to mention its been continuously developed and improved with new features and subsystems/munitions over the years by the manufacturer.

 

[dBSPL]

These drones need to be equipped with counter jamming equipment. Otherwise they'll be a failure.

Even the TB-2x variants, which are the most basic armed tactical configuration, have tactical level ECM and EW equipment in their payload groups. And more importantly, TB-'2s of the operator forces receive regular software updates every month.

In fact, I always find it useful to liken this to the story of the hare and the hound. When you make an impact on the theatre of operations, the target systems have to strengthen against this threat. As the target systems and the countermeasure systems used by the operator armed forces to protect these assets develop against this threat, the threat source has to continue its development in parallel with these developments. If one of the parties falls behind in this race, a great asymmetry emerges. So much so that this asymmetry, as seen in some war scenes, can produce dramatic results that can lead to the loss of 700-800 assets and thousands of personnel within 2-3 months, thus the loss of the war.

The KE-I/II and ANKA-III/IV programmes on the other hand, are a completely different world. The main strategic superiority objective of these programmes is already in the electronic warfare environment.

 

[hari sud]

Turkish Bayraktar was good when it did not face any opposition in Armenia or Syria. When the adversary is prepared like Russia in Ukraine after first few days of successes were shot down and captured intact by Russia. Hence, Pakistan buying this drone is probably waste of money which the Pakistani economy can use. In this case, India is well prepared to neuterlize it and shoot it down.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkish Bayraktar was good when it did not face any opposition in Armenia or Syria. When the adversary is prepared like Russia in Ukraine after first few days of successes were shot down and captured intact by Russia. Hence, Pakistan buying this drone is probably waste of money which the Pakistani economy can use. In this case, India is well prepared to neuterlize it and shoot it down.

Weak Ukraine doesnt have Air Force and Air Defense Systems to protect TB-2 UCAVs


on the other hand , Pakistan has strong Air Force and Air Defense Systems to protect TB-2 UCAVs

if Indian Army enter Pakistan ,
then Indian Army Tanks , IFVs , AFVs , Howitzers , MLRS , Mobile AD Systems will be turned into scrap of metal by Pakistan's TB-2 and AKINCI UCAVs

 

[dBSPL]

It's really not even laughable anymore to see that these shallow comments are still alive. The TB-2's documented successful engagements against all types of Russian low and medium air defence batteries, and against a wide range of electronic countermeasure systems in the tactical network of these units, are documented with a density and clear evidence that no other UAV system in the world has ever seen. Even though this is just a fucking tactical system. 200 km deep railway lines from theatre, main logistics supply lines, landing ships, helicopters landing troops, and many other absurd things happened also. As for armoured and lightly armoured units, artillery units etc, there is no need to go into this.

The system design is based almost entirely on simplicity on the structural side, with the difference of an aircraft made almost entirely of composite materials, supported by some sophisticated precision guided systems and software infrastructure. What is special is the design of the doctrine rather than the aircraft itself.

The aircraft performs 90 per cent of its mission autonomously. It was the first example of this on a tactical level vehicle with an average acquisition cost of $ 5 million. Of course, more advanced systems may be available if you want to endure a much larger logistical footprint and an initial acquisition cost of about 5-8 times higher. Of course, it is not possible to use those tools outside the interests of the producing country. In fact, if you cannot convince the US congress on that issue, your import is not even possible.

But when we look at it with a gearslut head, it's slower, lower lift capacity, cheaper, 'and a non-American UAV system', so it's a piece of crap, right? That's the typical twitter/yt defence analyst level. Again, TB-2 is just tactical level system. If you are aiming for a fast offansive like blitzkrieg, it has the potential to have a nightmarish effect. Its low detectability, low operational cost and low logistic footprint, coupled with its competence in software and weapon systems, make it a cost of war to the hostile force many times higher than its cost to the TB operating country.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Even the TB-2x variants, which are the most basic armed tactical configuration, have tactical level ECM and EW equipment in their payload groups. And more importantly, TB-'2s of the operator forces receive regular software updates every month.

In fact, I always find it useful to liken this to the story of the hare and the hound. When you make an impact on the theatre of operations, the target systems have to strengthen against this threat. As the target systems and the countermeasure systems used by the operator armed forces to protect these assets develop against this threat, the threat source has to continue its development in parallel with these developments. If one of the parties falls behind in this race, a great asymmetry emerges. So much so that this asymmetry, as seen in some war scenes, can produce dramatic results that can lead to the loss of 700-800 assets and thousands of personnel within 2-3 months, thus the loss of the war.

The KE-I/II and ANKA-III/IV programmes on the other hand, are a completely different world. The main strategic superiority objective of these programmes is already in the electronic warfare environment.

Some Questions regarding KE;
What do you think about the timeline at which KE will be truly a standalone aircraft as is originally envisioned by Baykar?
KE -1 may not be a fully AI driven aircraft since AI is still a immature technology.
Will Baykar undertake massive integration work for export customers to adapt KE with their existing systems for dual use of KE (Loyal Wingman & Standalone aircraft) or it will purely market KE as Standalone aircraft?
Is Al creative enough to withstand a strategic surprise from enemy?
Some People think it will disturb strategic balance in Pakistan's favour but I think Indians are already preparing for this challenge
Their next evolution of Tejas is genuinely like Turkish Manned -Unmanned Teaming.What's your take on this?

 

[hari sud]

Weak Ukraine doesnt have Air Force and Air Defense Systems to protect TB-2 UCAVs


on the other hand , Pakistan has strong Air Force and Air Defense Systems to protect TB-2 UCAVs

if Indian Army enter Pakistan ,
then Indian Army Tanks , IFVs , AFVs , Howitzers , MLRS , Mobile AD Systems will be turned into scrap of metal by Pakistan's TB-2 and AKINCI UCAVs

UCAV operates without an airforce.