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The fraud of Saraswati River - Hindu Myth busted

OK
Then I am sure Pakistani politicians and media won't cry this summer like they have been doing for the past 6 years
Coz India will only release the water which our reservoirs can't store
And the number of Dams in Indian Kashmir are increasing every year
 
They believe Indus flows completely from India

Can't entirely blame them. Growing up knowing their country is named India and being taught everything associated with the English prefix 'ind' belongs to them, it's only natural that the average Indian will yield to the confusion. The Indian education system needs a reform to fight revisionist history.
 
I suppose India should change its name now that most of the Indus is foreign water.
 
India has the most curious idendity crisis. It is named after a river that has been historically seperate than its current terrotiries, only united for 80 years under Ashoka later 350 under Mughals and Sultanates and 100 under British. It is like the Germans naming Germany after River Thames in England! Thamesia or something.
 
India has the most curious idendity crisis. It is named after a river that has been historically seperate than its current terrotiries, only united for 80 years under Ashoka later 350 under Mughals and Sultanates and 100 under British. It is like the Germans naming Germany after River Thames in England! Thamesia or something.
Its not India that writes inches thick columns upon columns discussing India's identity crisis..Indians know their identity and it is visible in our discussions, our media or our cultural landscape..

its India's neighbour to the west who constantly has this debate on its identity on a weekly basis in its own society.

You know you can write all you want about India's supposed identity crisis but it won't make any difference to Indians, it would just be a feel good discussion for Pakistanis. Your call entirely.
 
Its not India that writes inches thick columns upon columns discussing India's identity crisis..Indians know their identity and it is visible in our discussions, our media or our cultural landscape..

its India's neighbour to the west who constantly has this debate on its identity on a weekly basis in its own society.

You know you can write all you want about India's supposed identity crisis but it won't make any difference to Indians, it would just be a feel good discussion for Pakistanis. Your call entirely.

Yes we can see who has not only an identity crisis, but also a deep seated inferiority complex.

Bollywood is primarily run by Punjabis from our side (Indus Region). Behind the camera, there are Karan Johar, Vidhu Vinod Chopra and Yash Chopra of Lahore. The Kapoor clan of Lyallpur, Dev Anand of Lahore, Rajendra Kumar of Sialkot, Jeetendra, Prem Chopra, Anil Kapoor, Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt of Jhelum, Rajesh Khanna, Vinod Khanna, Suresh Oberoi of Quetta, and their star kids are Punjabis. Composer Roshan (father of Rakesh and grandfather of Hrithik) was from Gujranwala. All this despite Punjabis forming only 2% of India while forming a majority in Pakistan.

Also Muslim Urdu Speaking Pashtuns, or Hindkowan as in the case of Shah Rukh Khan, originally from the Indus Region (Pak Area) dominate Bollywood and Bollywood uses primarily Urdu (Persian originated words) than Hindi.

Named after a region/river that has been historically seperate from it's current territories, using 'foreign' actors for its main industry, we can see who has the inferiority complex/identity crisis.
 
Yes we can see who has not only an identity crisis, but also a deep seated inferiority complex.

Bollywood is primarily run by Punjabis from our side (Indus Region). Behind the camera, there are Karan Johar, Vidhu Vinod Chopra and Yash Chopra of Lahore. The Kapoor clan of Lyallpur, Dev Anand of Lahore, Rajendra Kumar of Sialkot, Jeetendra, Prem Chopra, Anil Kapoor, Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt of Jhelum, Rajesh Khanna, Vinod Khanna, Suresh Oberoi of Quetta, and their star kids are Punjabis. Composer Roshan (father of Rakesh and grandfather of Hrithik) was from Gujranwala. All this despite Punjabis forming only 2% of India while forming a majority in Pakistan.

Also Muslim Urdu Speaking Pashtuns, or Hindkowan as in the case of Shah Rukh Khan, originally from the Indus Region (Pak Area) dominate Bollywood and Bollywood uses primarily Urdu (Persian originated words) than Hindi.

Named after a region/river that has been historically seperate from it's current territories, using 'foreign' actors for its main industry, we can see who has the inferiority complex/identity crisis.
I tried making you understand that such lines mean nothing to us. You can personally see just by reading our papers and magazines what our society thinks of itself and whether or not it has an identity crisis. Just like how we see what your society thinks by reading a variety of Pakistani papers and magazines. Its no longer a secret with the advent of internet.

However, I can see you are intent on proving something for your sake.

Very well. Please continue. We have an inferiority complex and an identity crisis :tup:
 
No where in the world is history more distorted in the interest of politics then in South Asia. Mountains can be moved literally to fit in with revisionist history. One famous example of this is -

Source > HORSEPLAY IN HARAPPA


However there is another one. This is on continental scale. Have a look at the map below of Indus River and it's tributaries. Even a superficial glance will show that Indus flows along axis of Pakistan into the Arabian Sea. It was the centre of what has been called the Indus Valley Civilization with major centres like Harappa and Mohenjo Daro adjacent to or on the banks of the the mighty Indus.





This geographic reality has placed the right wing groups in India in a bind. They claim the IVC as the fountain of Indian civilization however the axis of this, the Indus River is in their arch nemesis - Pakistan. This has been major source of their frustration.

This problem has been resolved by massive distortion of facts on the ground. The axis of the IVC has been shifted east toward India or inside India. Map below.





This has been done by imagining a intermittent stream - the Ghagger-Hakra as a raging river to match mighty Indus and then tracing a line east of the Indus as the route of this river. All this was supported by Hindu myth which spoke of a giant Saraswati River. Thus the Saraswati came alive.

Map below. The intermittent Ghaggar-Hakra (1) marked red. Then the imaginery course of the raging "Saraswati" in black (2) emptying into the Arabian sea.






The final product of this enterprise is the coming to life of the Saraswati River straight from ancient Hindu text which conveniently shifts the axis toward India and loads of non significant IVC sites can be declared as "major" all nicely dotted along this new axis off the IVC far east from the Indus River itself. The centre of gravity has been shifted nicely east away from the arch nemesis. This is the historical version of the "if Mohammed won't come to the mountain, we will bring mountain to Mohammed". In this case "if the river is not in India we will bring the river to India".





So prevalent is this myth that increasingly Indus Valley Civilization is being hypenated with Saraswati with some even give it the "Saraswati" prefix. S-IVC or even Saraswati Valley Civilization reflecting the shifting of the gravity of the IVC from the west to east as shown in the map above. Example below of Saraswati myth.






The myth being peddled below in Wiki

Source > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar-Hakra_River

More rubbish being put forth as factual history.





It never made any sense because whilst climate has changed in that time but nothing as profound as this could have happened. Such a huge river could not possibly just vanish in the time frame in question. Other rivers in the region like Indus have been remarkably stable over this time frame. Furthermore even a causal check on the topography will show that this river could not have traversed the line given unless water ran contra gravity 4000 years ago.

The myth though has now been so to say "busted". A multi-disciplinary, multi-national team of experts from various universities and institutes independantly funded has reported that such a river as advocated by the Saraswati lobby could not have existed. Instead the team say in the past the Ghagger-Hakra was a perennial river fed by monsoon rains which were more abundant then today. However even at it's height it was just a minor tributary of the Indus which flowed into Indus River. It still does but because of the drier climate it is now mostly dry bed although occasionally turns into torrent with heavy rainfall.


Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization

Giosan, L; Clift, PD; Macklin, MG; Fuller, DQ; Constantinescu, S; Durcan, JA; Stevens, T; (2012) Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization published in:-

headline.png


Source > Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Source > http://www.pnas.org/
Quote

"The collapse of the Bronze Age Harappan, one of the earliest urban civilizations, remains an enigma. Urbanism flourished in the western region of the Indo-Gangetic Plain for approximately 600 y, but since approximately 3,900 y ago, the total settled area and settlement sizes declined, many sites were abandoned, and a significant shift in site numbers and density towards the east is recorded. We report morphologic and chronologic evidence indicating that fluvial landscapes in Harappan territory became remarkably stable during the late Holocene as aridification intensified in the region after approximately 5,000 BP. Upstream on the alluvial plain, the large Himalayan rivers in Punjab stopped incising, while downstream, sedimentation slowed on the distinctive mega-fluvial ridge, which the Indus built in Sindh. This fluvial quiescence suggests a gradual decrease in flood intensity that probably stimulated intensive agriculture initially and encouraged urbanization around 4,500 BP. However, further decline in monsoon precipitation led to conditions adverse to both inundation- and rain-based farming. Contrary to earlier assumptions that a large glacier-fed Himalayan river, identified by some with the mythical Sarasvati, watered the Harappan heartland on the interfluve between the Indus and Ganges basins, we show that only monsoonal-fed rivers were active there during the Holocene. As the monsoon weakened, monsoonal rivers gradually dried or became seasonal, affecting habitability along their courses. Hydroclimatic stress increased the vulnerability of agricultural production supporting Harappan urbanism, leading to settlement downsizing, diversification of crops, and a drastic increase in settlements in the moister monsoon regions of the upper Punjab, Haryana, and Uttar Pradesh."


Full article here > http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf



Quote

"Once extending more than 1 million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River from the Arabian Sea to the Himalayas and the Ganges, over what is now Pakistan, northwest India and eastern Afghanistan, the Indus civilization was the largest—but least known—of the first great urban cultures that also included Egypt and Mesopotamia. Named for one of their largest cities, the Harappans relied on river floods to fuel their agricultural surpluses. Today, numerous remains of the Harappan settlements are located in a vast desert region far from any flowing river.

Credit: Liviu Giosan, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution; Stefan Constantinescu, University of Bucharest; James P.M. Syvitski, University of Colorado.

Quote

"A new study combining the latest archaeological evidence with state-of-the-art geoscience technologies provides evidence that climate change was a key ingredient in the collapse of the great Indus or Harappan Civilization almost 4000 years ago. The study also
resolves a long-standing debate over the source and fate of the Sarasvati, the sacred river of Hindu mythology"


Link > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0528154943.htm



Context map. With Indus River system (mostly in Pakistan) blue flowing south into the Arabian Sea and entirely separate Ganges River System in India flowing east into the Bay of Bengal.

oKrZWzj.jpg




Ever since I heard this Saraswati rubbish I had my doubts. It never made sense. The only sense it made was negate Indus and replace it with Saraswati. Then give it a Hindu stamp by either calling it Saraswati Civilization or hyphenating as Saraswati-Indus Valley Civilization. Indian's are going to have to do more "Horseplay". The last map shows how the entire Indus is far out on the margins of most of India. Hell Afghanistan, Iran or even Oman are closer to then most parts of India. Mind you mention the word "Indus" and the Indian ears go erect faster then ears of my Alsatian dog when I say "food time" even when they live next to Sri Lanka or Myanmar or Thailand. Amazing !!!
with all due respect
i will have to disagree with you
first if no such river existed then there should be no Rann of kutch second of all the old river used to flow through thar desert if you know the desert you will realize it is a classic case of natural desertification possibly due to diversion of river most probably due to route change if you look at the sources of all main rivers of subcontinent you will realize the source of the old river whatever you call it has been moved towards ganges system
now it is all observation and i dont have any source to prove it if it is wrong i take full responsibility of it

6) Who will benefit from the project to trace Saraswati's channels?
a) Poor farmers of the thar desert (which covers the western borders of India shared with Pakistan).
b)Soldiers- Indian defence ministry has shown its ineterst in the project as it could mean adequate water supply to its soldiers stationed on the India-Pakistan border.
exactly no need to make any excuse
you want , i would say need a river there
you make a river there
you do what you need to do

but yes i would agree with OP
south Asian history is the most lied about and made up history in literally the whole world
why?
because both of us dont want to associate with each other in anyway
 
exactly no need to make any excuse
you want , i would say need a river there
you make a river there
you do what you need to
So I guess we agree upon 2 things
1. There existed a river.
2. That the riverbed needs to be mapped.

Did I read it right?
but yes i would agree with OP
south Asian history is the most lied about and made up history in literally the whole world
why?
because both of us dont want to associate with each other in anyway
There's another reason why Asian history is often lied about- to maintain European supremacy.
Aryan invasion theory is one such example.

Forensic proof that IVC was not Indian.
Sire we are the only nation in the world which has a ocean dedicated to its name. Lol
 
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There's another reason why Asian history is often lied about- to maintain European supremacy.
Aryan invasion theory is one such example.
i think it has been more twisted by our very own experts and trust me i read about Aryan invasion theory in fifth grade and my obsession with history led me to question it and I still remember being a kukad in front of whole class on asking "too much" questions like who were the Aryans in the fisrt place?
what made them leave their land?why is there no affiliation to Aryans currently?

i think what i agree on is that there used to be a river which has not been vanished but has moved to ganges system
you see rivers have a source (not only one)and once a course is established it take years to reroute and a 360 turn is also what questions my troubled mind
rivers dont just vanish
it might have something to do with harrapan destruction as well
but you see i am not in the research phase yet and all these speculations are mere observations and studies of others works
 
Yes we can see who has not only an identity crisis, but also a deep seated inferiority complex.

Bollywood is primarily run by Punjabis from our side (Indus Region). Behind the camera, there are Karan Johar, Vidhu Vinod Chopra and Yash Chopra of Lahore. The Kapoor clan of Lyallpur, Dev Anand of Lahore, Rajendra Kumar of Sialkot, Jeetendra, Prem Chopra, Anil Kapoor, Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt of Jhelum, Rajesh Khanna, Vinod Khanna, Suresh Oberoi of Quetta, and their star kids are Punjabis. Composer Roshan (father of Rakesh and grandfather of Hrithik) was from Gujranwala. All this despite Punjabis forming only 2% of India while forming a majority in Pakistan.

Also Muslim Urdu Speaking Pashtuns, or Hindkowan as in the case of Shah Rukh Khan, originally from the Indus Region (Pak Area) dominate Bollywood and Bollywood uses primarily Urdu (Persian originated words) than Hindi.

Named after a region/river that has been historically seperate from it's current territories, using 'foreign' actors for its main industry, we can see who has the inferiority complex/identity crisis.
Acting, dancing which was itself frowned upon in that era (most of the high caste ) that's why most of the female dancers were from Lahore.


And they were Hindu kahartis who trace their origin from Lav Kusha from modem day India, how are they related to you folks. Are you khatri ?

Sunil Datt a Brahman. Are you Brahman ?
 
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i think what i agree on is that there used to be a river which has not been vanished but has moved to ganges system
you see rivers have a source (not only one)and once a course is established it take years to reroute and a 360 turn is also what questions my troubled mind
rivers dont just vanish
it might have something to do with harrapan destruction as well
but you see i am not in the research phase yet and all these speculations are mere observations and studies of others works

Interesting!
What I know about Saraswati is, some 5000 years ago Saraswati lost 2 of its perennial tributaries and third one called "drishadvati" dried up. Add to it the fact that sand movement and ground faults caused the water to seep underground.
That's how Saraswati did her disappearing act. JMHO!
 

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