THE F16 DILLEMA---PAF HAS GONE TOO FAR--NO MORE F16's PLEASE

[EagleEyes]

PAF should spend more money on lobbying in the U.S. congress than spending money paying for F-16. Good lobby will gain more weaponry for free.

Get it from Israeli textbook.

 

[Blue Marlin]

strange I lost my edited post
I was talking about my ignorance of J10C, and my indifference to J10 derivatives since PAF reportedly turned down the plane.

and also wanted to mention late Tom Clancy who paid a little tribute to J10B (calling it super 10 ) and giving a detailed dog fight in a fictional fight with Chinese vs American/ Taiwanese Hornets etc. talking about Threat Vector


Saudis use Typhoon and I think PAF has flown it with Saudis as well as in UK when PAF team visited it. its bigger plane no?

it smaller than flankers and ever so slightly larger the rafale

 

[araz]

Muhammad Omar

I think we will know for sure what is happenning on the acquisition front by 2018. If the 16s come through and we have built up our strength to 110-120 planes new and MLU then we will sit quietly and wait till 2025. If the US decides to say No then I think it will be a thorough evaluation of J31. If it is not expected by 2025 PAF should ideally go for SU35 or J11/16 series. The whole equation of aski g the red bear was to give them a chance to refuse. If they refuse they dont have any leg to stand on from the moral point of view.
PERSONALLY Ithink it would be very difficult to predict whether PAF would go for a twin engined air craft with F16s coming in. I fully understand the need for it but finances remain a challange.
The chinese are very good at recycling ideas and if J20 comes on line you can bet J31 wont be far behind. The technology would trickle down from J20 to 31. A new prototype is due to fly in 2016. The reason PAF has kept quiet is CATIC is expecting any prospective customer to pay for the developmentof the plane and this could be very costly. PAF on the other hand want the PLAAF or CATIC to pay the development costs and take the plane off the shelf.
A

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

PAF understand its aircrafts well I guess. If offered a version of F16 with a normal radar and a J10C with AESA, PAF will still go for F16. The reason is simple.
Familiarity
A war history
Versatile machine.

J10 is new as a baby, and other than the Chinese nobody can claim its trust worthiness. If I was a PAF chief I will go with F16, and I see F16 operating in various AF till 2050.

 

[MastanKhan]

PAF understand its aircrafts well I guess. If offered a version of F16 with a normal radar and a J10C with AESA, PAF will still go for F16. The reason is simple.
Familiarity
A war history
Versatile machine.

J10 is new as a baby, and other than the Chinese nobody can claim its trust worthiness. If I was a PAF chief I will go with F16, and I see F16 operating in various AF till 2050.

Hi,

Then why have you not bought american fighter aircraft---they are the best of the best.

Why do you have a POS like an SU30 that is down half of the time---but you still prefer it over the american weapons---.

Why did you go for the rafale when it was on its last legs?

Young man----all these american fighter aircraft have the same temperament of american women---they tend to divorce you when you are in the shi-tter and shove it right up to the hilt.

PAF should spend more money on lobbying in the U.S. congress than spending money paying for F-16. Good lobby will gain more weaponry for free.

Get it from Israeli textbook.

Webby,

I think that time has come and gone-----. Pakistan just needs to keep silent and move away from the U S.

There is no reason to lobby anymore----.

Pakistan must also post a junior most ambassador to the U S as well---. Just do it with a smile on its face---no bad talking with the U S----just nice and easy---no confrontations---.

 

[VCheng]

PAF should spend more money on lobbying in the U.S. congress than spending money paying for F-16. Good lobby will gain more weaponry for free.

Get it from Israeli textbook.

It is not PAF, but the Gornamint of Pakistan that should be doing the lobbying if it is to be effective inside the Beltway.

 

[cloud4000]

PAF should spend more money on lobbying in the U.S. congress than spending money paying for F-16. Good lobby will gain more weaponry for free.

Get it from Israeli textbook.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Hi,

Then why have you not bought american fighter aircraft---they are the best of the best.

Why do you have a POS like an SU30 that is down half of the time---but you still prefer it over the american weapons---.

Why did you go for the rafale when it was on its last legs?

Young man----all these american fighter aircraft have the same temperament of american women---they tend to divorce you when you are in the shi-tter and shove it right up to the hilt.

.

Why should we? We have an independent foreign policy, and we want our weapons supplied at crucial stages without sanctions. Can US guarantee that? Nope. That's why we are banking on Rafale, an aircraft with less US components.

Second, we wont have gone for F16 (now) even if US was friendly. Our main strategy rolls on twin engine fighters, maybe most probably F15 or F18.

During the 1980's, if the US had offered India, the F16, IAF would have goppled that with open mouth's. The geopolitical situation was different then. Now we have aircrafts more advanced than F16 available.

The difference now is , we can choose dishes from the menu.

 

[MastanKhan]

The difference now is , we can choose dishes from the menu.

Hi,

No---the difference is that you don't want your ballz in the vise grip of the united states to make you do things that you don't want to.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Hi,

No---the difference is that you don't want your ballz in the vise grip of the united states to make you do things that you don't want to.

U mean Pakistan "created" war against India with the permission of United States?

PS: I really like this font.

 

[MastanKhan]

U mean Pakistan "created" war against India with the permission of United States?

PS: I really like this font.

That comment is stupid----.

 

[Kakaspai]

Hi,

Even though we have a training staff for the F16's---it depends on what pakistan would be getting---BLK52---V---or BLK61.

If it is aesa---it will take some time to integrate is as well---because now you are playing with different rules because you are in a different world as far as information coming to you is concerned.

Those saying that the J10C is like 50 % of the F16---then in reality the JF17 would be somewhere 40% of the F16's.

Getting new aircrafts and maintaining and managing the existing ones are judged on different pleateaus---. The U S may refuse the sale of the F16's but may not refuse the upkeep---that would be going too far and it won't happen.

Even used and re-furbished one could make it thru.

As for the mirage 2k's and rafale---pakistan should have looked at what kind of service they had gotten out of the mirage 3/5's. It is supposedly the only country that is operating the mirage 3/5.

Buying Rafales in 2003-04 would have been a Coupe de Grace one more time and it would have rectified the mistake of getting the F16's in the 80's.

Indians would not buy american aircraft---and there would be nothing in the market to compete with the rafale.

And instead of going for the 72 F16's at that time---32 Rafales would have done the job very nicely---. Our delays---we don't even have the 72 F16---the new ones---till now.

And indeed the final decision making must be taken away from PAF for buying an aircraft---they need to have aircraft A--B picked up---and let the state make the decision---what is more feasible and readily available.

Just like in the case of the chinese awacs and swedish ones----. Mushy made a great decision to reduce the numbers of swedish aircraft and got the chinese instead.

It would take around 5 years to integrate the J10C---. So---now is the perfect time to switch gears and head in a different direction----. The opponent is getting a new aircraft---it will take him time to integrate.

And we can have deliveries of the J10C on a fastrak. Maybe in 2 years time---we can over a sqdrn delivered.

Even if we sign the deal for these 8 aircraft's who knows the next US Gov. will put a ban on us.And the way things are going it is bound to happen in near future

 

[Syed Hussain]

Hi,

All through the 90's we cried about the sanctions----the withholding of our F16's by the americans for which we had already made the payments in advance.

Our air force became a skeleton---just an air force in name only and then came 9/11. The sanctions came off----a prudent person would have thought that the paf must have had a plan set up in place in advance that if the sanctions came of in this this and this year---this is the air craft that we will procure on a fastrak basis----and if the sanctions came off after the next 3 or 5 years then we might consider this other aircraft.

So---basically---one would assume that the moment the sanctions came off---the paf would be ready to jump in and make the deal happen to fill in the role of a much needed AIR SUPERIORITY fighter aircraft which they had assessed during the time of sanctions.

Now that the sanctions have come off, but there is no urgency on the part of the paf to fill in that big gaping hole where an air superiority fighter would fit in. A year passes nothing happens---two years pass---then three years pass and nothing comes up. And now right close to three and a half years agfter the sanctions came off---they decide to go for the F16 BLK52 for a number of 72 aircraft----and still there is no urgency to sign the deal.

The earthquake happens in kashmir----supposedly the funds are re-routed to other causes and what we are left is with 18 F16's. Then we decided to make our own fighter---which actually was in the process of being designed at that time.

What we needed was something like the ' right in your face ' kind of air superiority aircraft----to fill the TOP TIER hole---but our air force decided to go for a utility aircraft to start filling the bottom tier hole---with the aircraft we now call the JF 17---a wonderful aircraft by all means---but not what was needed for the local war scenario.

It has been 14 years since the sanctions came off---. We should have had a 150 F16 type aircraft by now and another 100 JF17 type aircraft---but poor decisions---bad planning---poor judgement----has brought us down to 60 JF 17's and about 72 F16's MLU's and BLK52's etc put together. These two put together are similar in numbers of enemy's mirage 2k's and MIG 29's---and I am not even going to begin counting the twin engine air superiority fighters that the enemy has---the SU30---around 240 of them.

The chines J10 is ready---they started with the A---then the B package---an extremely potent air superiority aircraft---and then later they came up with a top notch the J10C version---with an aesa radar---a built in IRST package---and an excellent electronics warfare package for this aircraft.
The long range BVR missile the SD10 was already in operation---the next long range latest BVR missile the PL15 is also ready to be integrated---the high off bore sight missile is also ready to be integrated and this makes this J10C aircraft an extremely deadly air superiority fighter aircraft in the class of Eurofighter and the Rafale.

The paf should have switched over to the chinese J10C aircraft once it got into the production line----with the aesa and the latest chinese electronic warfare package---this aircraft would be superior to the BLK52 and a little less than the emirati BLK 60 but as good as the israeli soufa and in the due process of time---like around 5 years---with fresh upgrades---it would be competing with the Rafales and the Eruofighter head on.

But then the paf has waited till the last minute---. There is a stoppage by the U S congress on the F16 sale---. Rather than going for the F16----they should have signed a deal for the J10C and told the americans to hit the sand---and if the americans wanted the pakistani business---they would have come running back.
In major weapons purchase---time is of the ultimate essence.

You cannot be indecisive---humming and hawing---lollygagging---you have to be pro-active and make timely changes---because it takes many a years to INTEGRATE these new fancy machines into the system and learn to fly them and to use them to their maximum abilities----.

This love affair with the F16 of the pakistan air force has really hurt and damaged pakistan's strength to fight a war or defend its skies with its arch enemy.

We are left so far behind in this battle---that it is not even funny at this stage.

You just said it perfectly, there is nothing more to say for me except

 

[帅的一匹]

i think J10c is at least equal to F16 blk 60, I have very strong confidence in J10c. It's cheaper and cost effective. To Those who claim that J10c is only 50% capability of F16, I'm just laughing at the ignorance. Whatever, best wish to PAF. Wish there is no sanction when you engaged with You r enemy. Still lots of elite class in Pakistan more pro American than Chinese, we shall wait and see the consequence.

A friend in need is a friend in deed.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Nope........ more like optimistic or simply wishful.