THE F16 DILLEMA---PAF HAS GONE TOO FAR--NO MORE F16's PLEASE

[Ahmed Shaikhani]

Those who are saying PAF should go for J10C, but JF-17 Block 3 in near future IN Shaa ALLAH will be having almost the same avionics as of J10C, AESA, possibly IRST Pod, New Chinese Missiles. Only JF-17 would lack in range which is offered by J10C, instead of wasting money and other resources in J10C PAF should go for a twin-engine aircraft (But I highly doubt that would happen because of Russian design) which would fulfil the requirements as of air-superiority and would guard the CPEC corridor. This would be a much more sensible stop gap till J-31 matures enough.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Those who are saying PAF should go for J10C, but JF-17 Block 3 in near future IN Shaa ALLAH will be having almost the same avionics as of J10C, AESA, possibly IRST Pod, New Chinese Missiles. Only JF-17 would lack in range which is offered by J10C, instead of wasting money and other resources in J10C PAF should go for a twin-engine aircraft (But I highly doubt that would happen because of Russian design) which would fulfil the requirements as of air-superiority and would guard the CPEC corridor. This would be a much more sensible stop gap till J-31 matures enough.

then why going for F-16?? JF-17 will also have everything F-16 has .... AESA, possibly IRST Pod, New Chinese Missiles.

 

[Syed Hussain]

You start a quite good thread and then idiots turn it into a circus.

 

[Ahmed Shaikhani]

then why going for F-16?? JF-17 will also have everything F-16 has .... AESA, possibly IRST Pod, New Chinese Missiles.

Well those F16's were offered by Obama administration, PAF didn't chase, and incoming should be added to the fleet. My reply was for those who said PAF should go for J10C as a replacement. We have 70+ F16's serving right now and we can't replace them with the blink of an eye. A better alternate would be J16 which would be sanctions free with no strings attached to it, only if Russia doesn't have objections on it's sale.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Well those F16's were offered by Obama administration, PAF didn't chase, and incoming should be added to the fleet. My reply was for those who said PAF should go for J10C as a replacement. We have 70+ F16's serving right now and we can't replace them with the blink of an eye. A better alternate would be J16 which would be sanctions free with no strings attached to it, only if Russia doesn't have objections on it's sale.

Oh sir g no one is saying that we should go for J-10C as F-16 replacement... But as addition of new Platform or replacement of Mirage you can say

 

[TheNoob]

we should better check the security's and their duty which was not well done, secondly all radicals must be hanged now ! In such a attack we must hang 100 TTP prisoners !

They send 4-10 of their people on suicide missions.
what makes you think they'd have even bit of humanity for their own comrades?

 

[Eagle Claw]

This is what we should do instead of Begging for F-16s . . . Get along with Turkiye for JV or Partnership in TFX 5th Gen Program . . .
Interesting Video by Kara Productions . . .
This is what a Joint Turkish Pakistani Power Looks Like . . .

 

[GriffinsRule]

Reading threads and posts from the same ppl harping on and on about not needing the F-16s is quite tiring. Get a reality check ... JF-17, even in its block III iteration will not equal the capabilities of our MLU/Block 52 birds that will then be a decade old tech wise. Reasons are quite evident ... F-16s carry more weapons further and with higher precision. Whats the max load out for a JF-17 w reg dumb bombs? 4 last I check, not to mention it doesnt have any precision strike capabilities (due to lack of a targeting pod). Even with the upgraded block III, it will be behind in terms of precision targeting.
So yes PAF needs more F-16s (not just wants) for a very valid reason. Lets not even start with the fact that JF-17 is outclassed not just by the F-16s, but also the Su-30s, upgrade Mirage 2000s and the newer Mig-29s in IAF/IN inventory. There is a reason why its replacing F-7s and Mirages and not the F-16s.
And all this talk about options? PAF has next to none is can pursue. There are no affordable options in terms of Typhoons or Rafales (Gripen is in the same class as F-16s). Russia is not going to be supplying us with Su-35s ... and even if it did so, its an even less reliable supplier than the US. I would count our blessings if PAF can get an engine rebuilt facility in place before the next conflict with India ... cuz you can be assured, those spares will stop flowing in from the Russians. And I am not even factoring in the costs or such large aircraft ... both operating and acquisition. Add in the training and new weapons and Su-35s make even less sense. F-16s simply are the least worst option for another 10-15 years until the newer generation of Chinese options mature into capable platforms. Until then the viper will be our most advanced fighter, like it or not.

 

[Wolf]

Well those F16's were offered by Obama administration, PAF didn't chase, and incoming should be added to the fleet. My reply was for those who said PAF should go for J10C as a replacement. We have 70+ F16's serving right now and we can't replace them with the blink of an eye. A better alternate would be J16 which would be sanctions free with no strings attached to it, only if Russia doesn't have objections on it's sale.

Most of the members are arguing that dont wait for F 16s. They will come when they will have to. Meanwhile induct J 10s, J 16s as you have mentioned, su 35s. Just dont wait for it and sit idle. Time is a luxury we can ill afford

 

[Wolf]

Reading threads and posts from the same ppl harping on and on about not needing the F-16s is quite tiring. Get a reality check ... JF-17, even in its block III iteration will not equal the capabilities of our MLU/Block 52 birds that will then be a decade old tech wise. Reasons are quite evident ... F-16s carry more weapons further and with higher precision. Whats the max load out for a JF-17 w reg dumb bombs? 4 last I check, not to mention it doesnt have any precision strike capabilities (due to lack of a targeting pod). Even with the upgraded block III, it will be behind in terms of precision targeting.
So yes PAF needs more F-16s (not just wants) for a very valid reason. Lets not even start with the fact that JF-17 is outclassed not just by the F-16s, but also the Su-30s, upgrade Mirage 2000s and the newer Mig-29s in IAF/IN inventory. There is a reason why its replacing F-7s and Mirages and not the F-16s.
And all this talk about options? PAF has next to none is can pursue. There are no affordable options in terms of Typhoons or Rafales (Gripen is in the same class as F-16s). Russia is not going to be supplying us with Su-35s ... and even if it did so, its an even less reliable supplier than the US. I would count our blessings if PAF can get an engine rebuilt facility in place before the next conflict with India ... cuz you can be assured, those spares will stop flowing in from the Russians. And I am not even factoring in the costs or such large aircraft ... both operating and acquisition. Add in the training and new weapons and Su-35s make even less sense. F-16s simply are the least worst option for another 10-15 years until the newer generation of Chinese options mature into capable platforms. Until then the viper will be our most advanced fighter, like it or not.

I have a number of question from you. I would like to be convinced so please do.

1) F-16 is a very good fighter no doubt. What is the guarantee that in case of conflict with india, americans guarding block 52s in Jacobabad will allow Pakistan to use them against india?

2) What is the guarantee that an american pilot flying drones in afghanistan by sitting in say california cant remotely do the same with our F 16s?

3) In case of war, if somehow we manage to use our F 16s against india against the agreement under which we procured these jets from usa, WHO will guarantee the continous supply of spares to keep them flying in war scenario?

4) Are the F 16s that are due to come and that again if they pass the congress test, aesa capable, having irst, have SEAD capable regarding elimination of air defence units in their mission computers?

5) What is the use of even F 22 raptor let alone F 16, if we cant fly them in time of need?

I am not being judgmental, do elaborate plz. Also please draw a comparison between J 10C and F-16 Block 52. If we can get all what we need in J 10 and that too sanction free, risk free. Say even if J 10 is 80% as better than F-16, wiser and prudent option is J 10C. Regards

 

[asad71]

If we had a patriotic govt, we would have grabbed this opportunity to obtain some F-16s from PAF, Jordan and Turkey. In fact one of the reasons why RAW conspired to defame Gen Moinuddin was his interest in acquiring some of these from Turkey. Another reason was the Turkish submarine project for BN to be built under a Turkey-ROK JV.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

1) Why are we considering that the F-16 are not a formidable platform and would remain in the future.

2) Why are we considering that the questions by the Congress can not be answered.

3) Why are we thinking that only new F-16's are what PAF is looking for.

Muhammad Omar

I think we will know for sure what is happenning on the acquisition front by 2018. If the 16s come through and we have built up our strength to 110-120 planes new and MLU then we will sit quietly and wait till 2025. If the US decides to say No then I think it will be a thorough evaluation of J31. If it is not expected by 2025 PAF should ideally go for SU35 or J11/16 series. The whole equation of aski g the red bear was to give them a chance to refuse. If they refuse they dont have any leg to stand on from the moral point of view.
PERSONALLY Ithink it would be very difficult to predict whether PAF would go for a twin engined air craft with F16s coming in. I fully understand the need for it but finances remain a challange.
The chinese are very good at recycling ideas and if J20 comes on line you can bet J31 wont be far behind. The technology would trickle down from J20 to 31. A new prototype is due to fly in 2016. The reason PAF has kept quiet is CATIC is expecting any prospective customer to pay for the developmentof the plane and this could be very costly. PAF on the other hand want the PLAAF or CATIC to pay the development costs and take the plane off the shelf.
A

Sir,
Rightly stated that Pakistan is looking for 110-120 F-16's and the answers would be available till the time you have quoted. Even if the US Congress does not allow the sale of new F-16's to Pakistan trough a bill Pakistan would still be able to get them if the President uses a Veto. The Veto would only be unavailable if Pakistan somehow manages to become an enemy of USA trough to the policies it might make in the future.

By 2020 Pakistan would also be offered the F-35, TFX, KFX and PAK-FA. The J31 is already offered and would be hearing about some good news soon.

Coming back to 2016 - 2020 there are many countries that are going to replace their F-16's which would give PAF a choice and by 2018 USA would not consider the F-16 a vital front-line defence fighter for US protection hence the Approval would not be necessary. This would give PAF a chance to use the F-16's for a very long period like they are flying the Mirage III/V's. The Turkish Air force and the Italian Air force would be selling the production line of F-16's giving PAF the rebuild capability.

Pakistan has been using Twin Engine aircraft in the past and are looking for one currently as they have a requirement.

The Aircraft that are available is not yet fully disclosed but Australian F-18's, EFT and Su-35's have been offered. The J-16's can be offered but the issue is a reliable engine.

War is a very serious matter and war equipment needs have to be looked at purely objectively excluding any emotions or personal likes & dislikes.

Pakistan needs to modernize her air force and acquire what is called ‘Minimum deterrence’ level. This has to be done within the financial & political constraints. Thunder is okay but it does not quite match the overall performance of F-16 & comparable aircrafts.

Now let us look at ‘STATE OF THE ART’ non stealth aircrafts in the world. We have Typhoon, Raphael, latest models of Flanker (Su-30 Mk 1 & Su-35), latest models of F-16 & F-18, Chinese J10/J20 and possibly latest model of Grippen.

Pakistan tried to acquire Grippen a few years back but failed due to Grippen being powered by the US engines. India has already opted for the Rafael hence France is unlikely to sell it to us. It is also doubtful that even if Pakistan could afford it, Europeans would sell Typhoon to the PAF.

This leaves us with newer version of F-16 & F-18, Su-35 & Chinese J-20. Remember that threat of sanctions exists for all Western military hardware and possibly for the Russian material as well. In these circumstances, it is logical that having had 25 years of experience in maintaining & operating it and being a battle proven aircraft; in PAF’s thinking latest versions of F-16 provide the most bang for the buck.

Now that F-16’s are being denied, PAF has no option but to go for the J-10/J-20 series. Let us sincerely hope that when push comes to shove, Chinese fighters prove to be at least as capable as F-16 Block 60.

Sir,
Grippen is no more required because PAF has succeeded in producing the JF-17 which is very close to what the Grippen was at that time. The Grippen NG is being marketed in India because they think that India would be interested to replace the Mig-21's because their TEJAS will not enter mass production as they are not very capable. How ever the US offering them the Scorpion and the current Government of India encouraging Made in India is going to highly effect the sales of Grippen. On the other hand France has decided to upgrade the production capability as well as help the TEJAS project and the sale of Rafales makes it very difficult for any other manufacturer to enter the Indian market.

This is why there is a shift in the policy of Russia to wards Pakistan. As far as France is concerned they follow a typical mentality to sell to both sides as long as the other has the money to pay for their products. So one can not rule out if France decided to sell PAF Rafales as well once it sees that PAF is going to replace the Mirrage fleet.

The EFT is available for the PAF and has been for sometime the only issue is it is more an air-superiority fighter unlike the multirole fighter the F-16 and Mirrage are.

Now the type of aircraft that is selected would all come down to logistical and technical necessities that PAF considers as the Finances are always available when it comes to National Security.

Those who are saying PAF should go for J10C, but JF-17 Block 3 in near future IN Shaa ALLAH will be having almost the same avionics as of J10C, AESA, possibly IRST Pod, New Chinese Missiles. Only JF-17 would lack in range which is offered by J10C, instead of wasting money and other resources in J10C PAF should go for a twin-engine aircraft (But I highly doubt that would happen because of Russian design) which would fulfil the requirements as of air-superiority and would guard the CPEC corridor. This would be a much more sensible stop gap till J-31 matures enough.

This is what we should do instead of Begging for F-16s . . . Get along with Turkiye for JV or Partnership in TFX 5th Gen Program . . .
Interesting Video by Kara Productions . . .
This is what a Joint Turkish Pakistani Power Looks Like . . .

Bro... The TFX is good 15-20 years away. What do you think PAF would sit defenceless till than?

Reading threads and posts from the same ppl harping on and on about not needing the F-16s is quite tiring. Get a reality check ... JF-17, even in its block III iteration will not equal the capabilities of our MLU/Block 52 birds that will then be a decade old tech wise. Reasons are quite evident ... F-16s carry more weapons further and with higher precision. Whats the max load out for a JF-17 w reg dumb bombs? 4 last I check, not to mention it doesnt have any precision strike capabilities (due to lack of a targeting pod). Even with the upgraded block III, it will be behind in terms of precision targeting.
So yes PAF needs more F-16s (not just wants) for a very valid reason. Lets not even start with the fact that JF-17 is outclassed not just by the F-16s, but also the Su-30s, upgrade Mirage 2000s and the newer Mig-29s in IAF/IN inventory. There is a reason why its replacing F-7s and Mirages and not the F-16s.
And all this talk about options? PAF has next to none is can pursue. There are no affordable options in terms of Typhoons or Rafales (Gripen is in the same class as F-16s). Russia is not going to be supplying us with Su-35s ... and even if it did so, its an even less reliable supplier than the US. I would count our blessings if PAF can get an engine rebuilt facility in place before the next conflict with India ... cuz you can be assured, those spares will stop flowing in from the Russians. And I am not even factoring in the costs or such large aircraft ... both operating and acquisition. Add in the training and new weapons and Su-35s make even less sense. F-16s simply are the least worst option for another 10-15 years until the newer generation of Chinese options mature into capable platforms. Until then the viper will be our most advanced fighter, like it or not.

First of all welcome to the forum.

Before one starts to give a reality check one must understand how Pakistan Air Force (PAF) likes to function.

Pakistan historically relied on one type of supplier till the reality proved it to diversify its purchases. Till the mid 1960's USA was the main supplier but once she decided to put sanctions Pakistan went for the French Mirrage fighters. This diversification always kept PAF of thinking what if France also decided to enforce sanctions then what would she do. So they decided to go for a supplier that would not just allow them to buy aircraft but also give them unrestricted access to the local production capability. This solution came from China in the 1970's when India went to WAR with the Chinese making them the main enemy leaving Pakistan far behind. The Chinese Provided PAF the F-6 which were indeed the Chinese produced licence version of the Russian Mig-17.

So today PAF maintains both Western and Eastern aircraft side by side hence the capability of both these products are almost identical.

If you wish to know more about the capability of Russian aircraft then do read about the dogfights during the North Korean War or the Vietnam War.

As far as JF-17 BLK III is concerned no one know what exactly would be available. The technology is developing so fast that keeping up is really hard to predict what would be in the final version that is delivered.

One must know why Russia offered the Su-35 to Pakistan because it fears that the Afghan forces are not capable of securing their country once all the international forces leave. They also fear that the Afghan might try to take revenge of the USSR Invasion from the present day Russia. Russia is under an agreement to protect those countries that used to be part of USSR but it is in no position to do that looking at the present state of Russian economy.

 

[Dalit]

Hate to say this, but some folks here are living in a fool's paradise. These are the same Americans who wouldn't provide F-16s to Pakistan after the infamous embargoe. The only reason why the Americans today are so eager to offer F-16s to Pakistan is because we truly have other options at our disposal. The Americans are desperate for political clout after the Russian Su-35 offer. Additionally, the Americans cannot afford to lose Pakistan as an "ally" despite so many hurdles and disagreements. The Americans influence Pakistan through military and economic aid. Once these factors diminish, the Americans also see their influence lessen. The Americans don't like to lose influence and they have already lost quite a lot of ground after Pak China ventures. The Americans cannot afford Russia to be the new spoiler.

Let us not kid ourselves. After the Su-35 offer from the Russians, the Americans have quickly scrambled and made every frantic effort to sabotage the ongoing discussions. The Americans are not amused after the ongoing talks between Pakistan and Russia. The Americans would rather have Pakistan operate lesser capable F-16s with a zillion conditions attached as opposed to the more lethal Su-35s which don't have any strings attached to them. Russia would never demand a set of ridiculous conditions such as when and where Pakistan can use their fighter jets. The Americans on the other hand, shamelessly dictate when and where Pakistan can use their own F-16s. The Americans also require rigorous end use and spare monitoring. So much for the glorious F-16s.

Besides, the Americans would never offer a capability to Pakistan which would remotely upset the Indians. The Americans would never offer a capability to Pakistan which would truly challenge and alter the balance of power even slightly. Anyone celebrating the F-16 offer needs to take this into account.

We need to wake up and smell the coffee. The Americans have done their homework and are only offering the F-16s because they are simply looking for political clout at zero cost. We will pay for these expensive F-16s and obey to every American condition imposed. The fact that some members here are satisfied with only a defensive role of the F-16s is also very telling. We buy equipment to use it at its fullest potential and capabilities. It is ridiculous to buy an expensive fighter and only use it in a certain confined role. It is unacceptable.

I would rather have a less capable JF-17 which we operate freely as opposed to a more advanced F-16 which has ridiculous end use constraints. What good is a platform which we cannot use to our full advantage?

 

[Khurram2349]

To the question that why Pakistan still want to chose US F-16s although they come with so much conditions and also so unreliable history of US supplies to us , we all are missing ONE basic reason .....and thats the COMMISSION the Pakistani decision makers will get out of this deal ! It seems our decision makers keep their pockets as their priority rather then national interest !

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hate to say this, but some folks here are living in a fool's paradise. These are the same Americans who wouldn't provide F-16s to Pakistan after the infamous embargoe. The only reason why the Americans today are so eager to offer F-16s to Pakistan is because we truly have other options at our disposal. The Americans are desperate for political clout after the Russian Su-35 offer. Additionally, the Americans cannot afford to lose Pakistan as an "ally" despite so many hurdles and disagreements. The Americans influence Pakistan through military and economic aid. Once these factors diminish, the Americans also see their influence lessen. The Americans don't like to lose influence and they have already lost quite a lot of ground after Pak China ventures. The Americans cannot afford Russia to be the new spoilers.

Let us not kid ourselves. After the Su-35 offer from the Russians, the Americans have quickly scrambled and made every frantic effort to sabotage the ongoing discussions. The Americans are not amused after the ongoing talks between Pakistan and Russia. The Americans would rather have Pakistan operate lesser capable F-16s with a zillion conditions attached as opposed to more lethal Su-35s which don't have any strings attached to them. Russia would never demand a set of ridiculous conditions such as when and where Pakistan can use their fighter jets. The Americans on the other hand, shamelessly dictate when and where Pakistan can use their own F-16s. The Americans also require rigorous end use and spare monitoring. So much for the glorious F-16s.

Besides, the Americans would never offer a capability to Pakistan which would remotely upset the Indians. The Americans would never offer a capability to Pakistan which would truly challenge and alter the balance of power even slightly. Anyone celebrating the F-16 offer needs to take this in account.

We need to wake up and smell the coffee. The Americans have done their homework and are only offering the F-16s because they are simply looking for political clout at zero cost. We will pay for these expensive F-16s and obey to every American condition imposed. The fact that some members here are okay with only a defensive role of the F-16s is also very telling. We buy equipment to use it at its fullest potential and capabilities. It is ridiculous to buy an expensive fighter and only use it in a certain confined role. It is unacceptable.

I would rather have a less capable JF-17 which we operate freely as opposed to a more advanced F-16 which has ridiculous end use constraints. What good is a platform which we cannot use to our full advantage?

Even if the F-16's are given to Pakistan the Su-series would be part of PAF that is due to other reason not just sanctions... However what is going to come through the GCC and Arab League is that one must consider at the time. Most likely the EFT or More F-16's.